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Author Topic: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?  (Read 11311 times)

Offline scullyhunter

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Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« on: 29/12/2005 16:51:10 »
Hi People

Has Anyone actually invented anti-gravity yet ?, I just wanna get off this planet...

Hope you all had a good Christmas

Take Care



 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #1 on: 29/12/2005 19:35:01 »
you could always try waiting at the top of Mt st helens

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Offline Entity

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #2 on: 02/01/2006 06:11:38 »
I wonder how many people out there actually ponder this question? Ive day dreamt about inventing an anti-gravity machine more times then I have of a threesome with the Olsen twins but how in the hell can you engineer something when you dont fully understand the principals which you seek to employ? I've trying to figuring it out mathmatically but my feeble brain has thus far been unable to get anywhere significant.
 

another_someone

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #3 on: 03/01/2006 01:26:47 »
If you do create an anti-gravity machine, how do you stay on it?  If it has enough force to push itself (and you, and the rest of its payload) off the Earth. Then why would it not push you away with exactly the same force?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #4 on: 03/01/2006 03:10:41 »
1 thing I've wondered about is this. If there are such beasties as anti-gravity particles, wouldn't they have been, ever since the big bang, trying to get as far away from matter as possible? Wouldn't they by now be at the furthest reaches of the universe? They certainly wouldn't be hanging around where there's a lot of mass.
As an afterthought to that, could that have something to do with why very distant galaxies appear to accelerating?
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #5 on: 03/01/2006 03:51:37 »
quote:
by the doc
 1 thing I've wondered about is this. If there are such beasties as anti-gravity particles, wouldn't they have been, ever since the big bang, trying to get as far away from matter as possible? Wouldn't they by now be at the furthest reaches of the universe? They certainly wouldn't be hanging around where there's a lot of mass.
As an afterthought to that, could that have something to do with why very distant galaxies appear to accelerating?


Doc the way I see it, who knows what’s out there, at one time neutrinos were just an idea in someone head.  These days their looking for evidence of super wimps, so god knows what they will be looking for in 50 years time..
 
However if there were anti gravity  particles the way I see it is to them we would be like anti gravity and we haven’t disappeared to the furthest reaches of the universe yet.
What would probably happen is the antimatter particles would act in same way as normal matter, it would clump together and reside in-between the galaxies of normal matter.
A bit like what we call dark matter.
Maybe to dark matter world we are the dark matter and we are responsible for the expansion.

Maybe the universe has two forms of matter a sort of + and - but neither kind can directly interact with each other than through the manipulation of space through gravity.

Sorry doc I’ve been thinking again, I shouldn’t do that:D


Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 03/01/2006 03:53:18 by ukmicky »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #6 on: 03/01/2006 04:00:08 »
I too have been thinking about anti gravity...

.. I have come to the conclusion that it has been residing in every one of wifeys recipes since I knew her. Whenever she cooks, the resultant effect is one of repulsion.

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #7 on: 03/01/2006 04:16:12 »
quote:
I have come to the conclusion that it has been residing in every one of wifeys recipes since I knew her. Whenever she cooks, the resultant effect is one of repulsion


And i bet you make your children eat every morsel

Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
 

another_someone

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #8 on: 03/01/2006 04:47:55 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

1 thing I've wondered about is this. If there are such beasties as anti-gravity particles, wouldn't they have been, ever since the big bang, trying to get as far away from matter as possible? Wouldn't they by now be at the furthest reaches of the universe? They certainly wouldn't be hanging around where there's a lot of mass.
As an afterthought to that, could that have something to do with why very distant galaxies appear to accelerating?



That was my thought as well, but since the were talking about inventing and anti-gravity machine, not discovering an anti-gravity particle, so I thought they had side-stepped that issue.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #9 on: 03/01/2006 04:54:46 »
If it can not be detected then perhaps the only way to experience anti-Gravity is indeed to create it !

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

another_someone

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #10 on: 03/01/2006 05:00:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
 
However if there were anti gravity  particles the way I see it is to them we would be like anti gravity and we haven’t disappeared to the furthest reaches of the universe yet.
What would probably happen is the antimatter particles would act in same way as normal matter, it would clump together and reside in-between the galaxies of normal matter.
A bit like what we call dark matter.
Maybe to dark matter world we are the dark matter and we are responsible for the expansion.

Maybe the universe has two forms of matter a sort of + and - but neither kind can directly interact with each other than through the manipulation of space through gravity.




This could only be if there was some sort of web of one type of matter that wrapped itself around the other type to trap it.  E.g. A web of + gravity particles that locks in a very much smaller amount of – gravity matter, such that the – gravity matter cannot move in any direction without getting too close to some part of the + gravity complex, but does not have enough energy to shatter the + gravity web.  It needn't even be on a galactic scale, it could be on a quark or sub-quark scale.

If such a complex existed at a sub-quark scale, then it is just a matter of finding a way or breaking apart the + gravity web to release the – gravity matter (and then finding some way of not having the – gravity run away before you can put it to use).  Ofcourse, what you will probably find is that if the – gravity matter does not have enough energy to break open the web of + gravity matter, the amount of energy you would have to use to shatter that web would have to exceed the amount of – gravity energy you would release.

Ofcourse, the other problem is if it was in the micro-particle level, then I suppose it may sometimes tunnel out of the web.  If that was possible, then it would have been doing so since the dawn of time, and one would have to ask how many of those complexes would still survive until today.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2006 05:07:13 by another_someone »
 

another_someone

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #11 on: 03/01/2006 05:34:29 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

What would probably happen is the antimatter particles would act in same way as normal matter, it would clump together and reside in-between the galaxies of normal matter.
A bit like what we call dark matter.
Maybe to dark matter world we are the dark matter and we are responsible for the expansion.



One problem with the dark matter theory and anti-gravity, as I see it.  If a particle posses anti-gravity, then given the correlation between gravity and inertia, should it not also posses anti-inertia, and this in effect have negative mass, not positive mass.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #12 on: 03/01/2006 12:55:08 »
quote:
However if there were anti gravity particles the way I see it is to them we would be like anti gravity and we haven’t disappeared to the furthest reaches of the universe yet.
What would probably happen is the antimatter particles would act in same way as normal matter, it would clump together and reside in-between the galaxies of normal matter.


I assume in the 2nd part of that reply you meant "anti-gravity" not "antimatter".
There are a couple of points I'd like to raise in reply:-
1) If gravity particles attract, then anti-gravity particles would repel. Maybe they would even repel each other and that would prevent them from clumping.
2) There is an apparent shortage of antimatter. No-one knows where it is or even if it still exists. Maybe the same kind of process was responsible for the lack of anti-gravity particles (if there IS a lack).

 

another_someone

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #13 on: 03/01/2006 14:28:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
2) There is an apparent shortage of antimatter. No-one knows where it is or even if it still exists. Maybe the same kind of process was responsible for the lack of anti-gravity particles (if there IS a lack).




But shortage is not absence.

Positrons are natural decay products, and while they are only around in small amounts (and short periods of time), they are nonetheless apparent even within the local universe.

Ofcourse, one could speculate that anti-gravity particles may have such a fleeting existence, but if so, would they not show up as anomalous increases in gravity (and one assumes of inertia)?
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #14 on: 04/01/2006 01:07:13 »
quote:
I assume in the 2nd part of that reply you meant "anti-gravity" not "antimatter".



Doc
Thank you for pointing out my error. I do have an excuse though ,I’ve got the lurgy. Everyone in my house has come down with the flu


Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #15 on: 04/01/2006 03:22:00 »
quote:
Positrons are natural decay products, and while they are only around in small amounts (and short periods of time), they are nonetheless apparent even within the local universe.


By saying that because particle A behaves in such a way so particle B should also, you are implying that all particles should behave the same; which they clearly do not.
 

another_someone

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #16 on: 04/01/2006 04:05:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

quote:
Positrons are natural decay products, and while they are only around in small amounts (and short periods of time), they are nonetheless apparent even within the local universe.


By saying that because particle A behaves in such a way so particle B should also, you are implying that all particles should behave the same; which they clearly do not.



Not at all.

You were comparing anti-gravity to anti-matter.  I was saying that we know that anti-matter exists because we can see it being created, it is simply that we don't know why there is not more of it.  With anti-gravity, we have not seen it created, and so the comparison breaks down.

I also suggested that even if we did not see it in flight, if it was still being created, we should at least see the effects it has on the matter around it,

This does not preclude that it could have been created in the very early universe (possibly responsible for inflation) and is no longer being created.  I was merely pointing out that the comparison with anti-matter would have to be very severely constrained.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #17 on: 04/01/2006 04:11:22 »
quote:
You were comparing anti-gravity to anti-matter.


What I was doing was using the example of antimatter as an example of an imbalance. I was not actually comparing the behaviour or properties of antimatter to those of anti-gravity particles. I could just easily have used the example of magnetic monopoles.

 
quote:
With anti-gravity, we have not seen it created, and so the comparison breaks down.



I don't believe it does break down. Just because we haven't seen something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mentioned magnetic monopoles above. They have never been detected but theories suggest that they should exist (unless there has been some new development of which I am unaware).
« Last Edit: 04/01/2006 04:16:56 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #18 on: 04/01/2006 04:18:36 »
To be honest, so long as it's not anti specific gravity, I don't mind. I like my beer! :D
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #19 on: 04/01/2006 04:24:15 »
quote:
One problem with the dark matter theory and anti-gravity, as I see it. If a particle posses anti-gravity, then given the correlation between gravity and inertia, should it not also posses anti-inertia, and this in effect have negative mass, not positive mass.


another_someone - if that is the case, would the particle not be able to travel slower than c & therefore be undetectable? Or does travelling faster than c imply travelling backwards in time as I have seen suggested elsewhere here? If so, would all the particles be lurking somewhere near the big bang and have possibly caused expansion?
« Last Edit: 05/01/2006 19:46:44 by DoctorBeaver »
 

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #20 on: 04/01/2006 04:30:45 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

I don't believe it does break down. Just because we haven't seen something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I mentioned magnetic monopoles above. They have never been detected but theories suggest that they should exist (unless there has been some new development of which I am unaware).



At one stage I heard a lot of speculation about magnetic monopoles, but then have not heard anything for a long time.

One thing that baffles me about them is that if they did exist would that mean that there exists a magnetic force as a primary force in the same way as the electric force exists as a primary force?  I always thought that the magnetic force was merely a manifestation of the electric force (hence, rightfully, the electromagnetic force) and not a separate force in its own right?

Again, I suppose this is a relevant issue, in that both gravity and magnetism are better described by relativity than it is by quantum theory, and it is interesting that while quantum theory is looking for magnetic monopoles and gravitons, it can find neither.

But, the issue about magnetic monopoles, even if they existed, their effects would be constrained to certain particles in certain situations.  If a particle with negative mass were to exist (the question ofcourse is whether we can talk about negative gravity without negative mass) then its effects should be observed on any particle, and would be obvious in any situation it existed in.  Not only that, if such a particle had a long lifespan, and it existed in any significant number, its effects should have macroscopic visibility (since gravity is actually more visible on the macroscopic than the microscopic level).
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #21 on: 04/01/2006 07:38:31 »
quote:
If a particle with negative mass were to exist (the question ofcourse is whether we can talk about negative gravity without negative mass) then its effects should be observed on any particle, and would be obvious in any situation it existed in.


I'm not sure that negative gravity equates to negative mass unless positive gravity particles equate to positive mass in the same way. I don't believe that to be the case. Even in a zero gravity environment a body still has mass. The gravity of individual particles may cause them to coalesce, but the actual mass is in the fermions.
That brings me back to something I noticed earlier about negative inertia. I'm not sure that follows either as, surely, inertia is a product of mass not gravity.
 

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #22 on: 04/01/2006 08:02:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

I'm not sure that negative gravity equates to negative mass unless positive gravity particles equate to positive mass in the same way. I don't believe that to be the case. Even in a zero gravity environment a body still has mass. The gravity of individual particles may cause them to coalesce, but the actual mass is in the fermions.
That brings me back to something I noticed earlier about negative inertia. I'm not sure that follows either as, surely, inertia is a product of mass not gravity.



Relativity specifically relates mass to both gravity and inertia.  Is gravity and inertia are decoupled, it would violate relativity.

The point is that relativity says that it is impossible to distinguish between an accelerating body and a body influenced by gravity.  An accelerating body is dependent upon inertia, thus if you decouple inertia from gravity, then you will be able to distinguish the effects of gravity from an accelerating reference.

So called zero gravity is not caused by gravity not being there (i.e. neither the Earth nor the human body or the space ship have stopped having a gravitational field), it is merely caused by a balance between the centrifugal force of orbit and the centripetal force of gravity.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #23 on: 04/01/2006 10:17:22 »
OK, I take your point about gravity/acceleration/inertia.

 
quote:
So called zero gravity is not caused by gravity not being there (i.e. neither the Earth nor the human body or the space ship have stopped having a gravitational field), it is merely caused by a balance between the centrifugal force of orbit and the centripetal force of gravity.


Surely that is only 1 example of zero gravity. If you were in a non-accelerating spaceship halfway between our sun & Alpha Centauri, I'm pretty sure there'd be no gravitational effect worth talking about. But if your spaceship bumped into a rock there, thanks to mass & velocity you'd know all about it.
 

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #24 on: 04/01/2006 10:29:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

Surely that is only 1 example of zero gravity. If you were in a non-accelerating spaceship halfway between our sun & Alpha Centauri, I'm pretty sure there'd be no gravitational effect worth talking about. But if your spaceship bumped into a rock there, thanks to mass & velocity you'd know all about it.



Granted, I quoted one typical example and wrongly implied that it was all there was; but the underlying issue that whatever the balance of forces, it has not caused gravity to go away.

Your example, where you are at a null point between two gravitation pulls, as soon as move off that null point, you'd know the gravitational fields still exist.
 

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Re: Have We Found Anti-Gravity ?
« Reply #24 on: 04/01/2006 10:29:32 »

 

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