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Author Topic: Was - Could BP blow up the oil well .. to to Who is responsible and plolitics of  (Read 6991 times)

Offline Geezer

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Thanks JimBob!

(Personally, I think BP is finished. It may just be the luck of the draw, but there is no arguing with the cards we receive.)

No doubt BP's shareholders will claim they were deceived, but it's the responsibility of the shareholders to ensure that there is no deception. This should serve as a reminder that, if we invest in a corporation, we ought to know how that corporation really operates.
« Last Edit: 10/06/2010 06:15:35 by Geezer »


 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #1 on: 10/06/2010 07:33:20 »
Well, if you're going to shove responsibility upwards then the blame lies with the people who granted drilling rights and didn't check that whatever conditions they specified were being met, as it was them who decided that the risk was acceptable.

All the finger pointing at BP just seems like a product of litigation mentality to me, for to win litigation you must identify someone to pay it.  Quite frankly, I think I've heard more nonsensical and ludicrous opinions about this matter than any other similar ones that come to mind.  Good grief, I've even heard one complaint that Barack Obama wasn't getting annoyed enough about it, for FS - I mean, wtf will that achieve?
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #2 on: 10/06/2010 10:35:24 »
Yes there seems to be a lot of politics being played with this. As far as I can tell, a combination of Transocean, BP and the US government has screwed up at the beginning, but since then BP has been doing a hell of a lot to try to fix the problem. Within 2 days they had effectively spent a third of a billion dollars on drilling the relief wells. The fact that noone in the industry had come up with a solution to this failure mode this deep, is a system wide problem, not just a BP one.

Unless the US government retrospectively passes lots of laws to deliberately take out BP in some kind of bizzarre politically motivated revenge, it won't kill the company. It is just too big. It would also take out a large section of the UK economy, which is struggling somewhat as it is, which would have political ramifications.
 

Offline chris

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #3 on: 10/06/2010 11:01:14 »
I think a lot of people - Obama among them - are overlooking (or choosing not to mention) something really quite significant here: If this disaster had happened to a company other than BP, then the financial burden for the clean up would now be falling at the feet of the US taxpayer, because no US oil company is sufficiently large to shoulder the exorbitant cost of the remediation. If one of these other companies had created this problem they would have immediately gone bankrupt, dumping the problem (financially) on Obama's desk.

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that many peoples' pensions are propped up by BP shares - including many Americans. So killing the company would be a bad idea in the long run.

I think we have to accept that, given the huge thirst for oil - especially in the US which is the highest per-capita consumer in the world - there will be risks satisfying that market. We have to accept that if we want to live the way we do there is a price to pay. This is not to say, however, that I am not very sympathetic to the fisherman and conservationists who work and live in the Gulf and for whom the impact could be enormous. It's a terrible outcome, but a predictable one for the world in which we live.

Chris
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #4 on: 10/06/2010 12:19:31 »
A lot of people seem to be overlooking the fact that offshore oil development is a very risky business. If you invest in a risky business (as BP's investors did) and depend on it (as the US consumers did) you are subject to some very unpleasant surprises.

I suspect BP is little different from many other companies in this regard. BP just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. Unfortunately, the brand is tarnished, and will be for a very long time, should it survive that long.

It's interesting that some would seek to impune the president of the USA in this fiasco. He, like most of us in the US and the UK, was probably under the misguided impression that BP had sufficient expertize to ensure that something like this was very unlikely to happen, and even if it did, contingency measures would be immediately implemented to mitigate the consequences.

Please pardon this observation, but it is now clear that BP was flying by the seat of its pants. There is nothing wrong with flying a corporation by the seat of its pants as long as the corporation makes that clear.

Did BP do that?
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #5 on: 11/06/2010 00:41:06 »
A lot of people seem to be overlooking the fact that offshore oil development is a very risky business. If you invest in a risky business (as BP's investors did) and depend on it (as the US consumers did) you are subject to some very unpleasant surprises.

I suspect BP is little different from many other companies in this regard. BP just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. Unfortunately, the brand is tarnished, and will be for a very long time, should it survive that long.

It's interesting that some would seek to impune the president of the USA in this fiasco. He, like most of us in the US and the UK, was probably under the misguided impression that BP had sufficient expertize to ensure that something like this was very unlikely to happen, and even if it did, contingency measures would be immediately implemented to mitigate the consequences.

Please pardon this observation, but it is now clear that BP was flying by the seat of its pants. There is nothing wrong with flying a corporation by the seat of its pants as long as the corporation makes that clear.

Did BP do that?

I agree that BP is little different to any other company in this line of business, and it's likely that if this didn't happen to them it would have happened to someone else.  Arguably, it has already happened before, and to a greater extent, with the Ixtoc spillage.

As to whether the brand is tarnished or not, well I think that's debatable.  From my point of view it is the politicos who are pointing the finger at BP that have been most disappointing; they want these companies to bear the financial risk of trying to exploit the resources there but are not prepared to take the risk themselves.  Then on top of that they cannot claim that they were ignorant of the risks being taken but have given permission for the attempt to be made.  I'm afraid that the US politicos, already pointing the finger of blame even before the incident has been properly investigated have just revealed themselves as a bunch of opportunistic hypocrites, anxious to divert any smear of culpability away from themselves, being the people responsible for allowing the work in the first place.

Neither do I think it fair to say that everyone was under the impression that that BP was in a position to ensure anything.  This operation was not revolutionarily new, but a progression of earlier developments, where limits were not entering entirely new grounds but were being pushed further than before.  In this sort of situation, where you are going beyond previous limits, what assurances can you guarantee?  They have gone further than anyone else, so while they could extrapolate what might happen there is simply no way to guarantee anything.  There was always an element of risk involved here and any assurances could only be based upon best guesses, based upon previous experience.

Was there any deception involved?  Well not from what I've been able to read about it.  The worst case scenario presented by BP for potential problems at this well, as part of the procedure for gaining permission to operate there, have not yet been reached.  What has happened so far then, appears to be within the worst case scenario that was accepted by the US bodies that granted the permission to operate.

In what way was BP 'flying by the seat of its pants'?  Do you mean by operating with as small a margin as possible?  How is this different to any other current commercial concern?  How many other commercial organisations operate with sufficient margin to be able to retain their staff when the market for their product collapses, rather than simply lay their staff off?

The fact is that although the platform was being operated on behalf of BP by Transocean, and BP were not in a position to oversee the day to day operations of the platform, they immediately accepted total responsibility for the consequences of the incident and haven't since tried to avoid that responsibility.  The US politicos, on the other hand, and to my mind, have disgraced themselves by their anxiousness to point the finger of blame elsewhere and absolve themselves of any responsibility on their part of the deal that allowed the operation to be started in the first place.

It has been both a saddening and embarrassing spectacle to watch, especially when the rest of the world had such high hopes from the new US government.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #6 on: 11/06/2010 01:10:17 »
Fair comment Lee.

By "flying by the seat of their pants" I do mean operating with very little margin for error, and having inadequate contingency plans in place. Mind you, I'm not sure what kind of contingency plan could be put in place for a scenario like this, but that's what the people getting the big bucks are supposed to ensure. And you are correct. The US government seems to have been asleep at the switch.

I read recently that one of the environmental scientist BP lists in their environmental response plan (produced in 2009 I think) died several years ago. That was only one of the issues found with it. Again, the US government is also guilty of letting that pass.

I suspect the bottom line is the real cost of offshore production is going to increase dramatically, and that might not be such a bad thing.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2010 06:49:24 by Geezer »
 

Offline tommya300

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #7 on: 11/06/2010 09:19:41 »
What I see sitting on the outside looking in at any high profile industry is:
1.) To make a profit play with supply and demand
    Petrol prices fluctuate like a pregnant woman's emotions, conspiracy theory
2.) Cut corners where it can be cut, some may be an acceptable margin.
3.) Use loop holes to side step quality to gain quantity.
There is more but let me touch on the other side.
There the other side where things are overlooked because of a redundant exercise becomes a habit that the check list on the observers (big brothers) part becomes lazy.
Promoting incompetence seems to be a theme I have seen since the 70's and most likely always was in the chain of command well before that.
The individual’s thoughts today is get a paycheck for a job, no matter if I do it good or bad, pride has been striped from the equation.
The good old boy’s network, always rules, measuring the ranks, financial status, puts one in a certain prestigious club. Yes they all should be inadequately praised for doing an extremely inadequate job, done inadequately well.
Facts are never or almost never presented to all, for is there a need to know attitude!
If I tell this info to Josh, can he do anything about it?

 Hindsight is always crystal clear, but when someone knows that they are handling dangerous materials and know that if the safety is paramount, it is that persons job, no responsibility, to be self policing their own side of the fence! So when it is inspected by outside overseers, that everything holds a status above a white glove inspection and that should be redundant 10 fold.   

There is more to it then meets the eye.

We the little guy observe that all parties directly invoved are at fault.
One of the two or three involved, observesand points out, that the other one or two is is at fault.
A circular Jerk off begins.

Bureaucracy once introduced into the scientific equations, to many chiefs and not enough Indians are manufactured and mass produced from a proverbial, virtual, stamping machine press. Once this occurs finger pointing is all that is inherited, solutions are not the focused issue any more, problems are.
Not only are the problems modified, they are multiplied to the Nth degree.
 
E.G. Waiting for someone to OK an executable operation within a window of opportunity, once missed, may cascade many undesirable and unwanted effects. Who is the boss now baby! Ugh me doe no! Him no! Him chief now after that screw up!

Ever since the white man walked/tramped on the Ancient Indian Burial Ground they/we all been cursed!

Lives were lost! Lives of different species will be lost.
Poorer words were never spoken. "I Want my life back?" Will echo down into history along with life as we know it, caused by man's homemade destructive paving.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2010 10:23:35 by tommya300 »
 

Offline peppercorn

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #8 on: 11/06/2010 11:40:02 »
If this sounds like America bashing I'm sorry, but I suspect if Transocean had been the British company and BP the US company, the media and government pressure in attributing blame might have looked somewhat different.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #9 on: 11/06/2010 14:37:12 »
That it happened at all is bad, but of course drilling oil wells is intrinsically a very difficult and risky business. When it happened I was confident that BP was one of the best in the business and there was no reason to panic as they would rapidly get the situation under control before too much damage was done.

As the weeks have gone by, I, like many others I suspect, have come to realize that my initial confidence in BP may have been misplaced. It also turns out that the the US government does not have a clean hand in this fiasco either, which is equally discouraging.

If the bottom line is that this represents the state of the art in the oil industry (which I rather doubt), we have no business drilling any more offshore oil wells anywhere until we can come up with something a lot better than this.

As Peppercorn points out, if the boot was on the other foot, and this had happened in the North Sea under a US oil company, the media and the politicians would be doing exactly the same things in the opposite direction.

Just a thought, but could this be an example of "excessive outsourcing". Has BP turned into a company that only employs a relatively small number of scientists and engineers and most of the decisions are being handled by subcontracting companies? That approach can work well as long as there are no major problems, but when the pucky hits the fan, the company at the top finds it has very limited resources and expertise to deploy in a hurry. Of course, that may not be the case here.
 

Offline JimBob

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #10 on: 11/06/2010 17:07:45 »
Well, if you're going to shove responsibility upwards then the blame lies with .....

Ultimately it is the responsibility of us - science and the people of the past who have built a world-wide economy based on the energy derived form oil and gas.

Prior to that it was coal. There is enough coal to go back to using coal for all of our energy needs. BP would not be making money if there were not a demand for oil.

Unfortunatly, in the drilling of this well that blew out, all of the technology was pushed to the edge. On the blow-out preventer therein place, there is a "dead man's switch." If there is a complete loss of communication to the  surface this switch is automatically activated to close in the well by crushing the drill pipe. For whatever reason this did not happen. It was the last of 7 subsea systems (if my count is correct) that should have worked.

But this is only a small part of the problem.

The largest part of the problem is that the drilling technology is being pushed FAR beyond the design point. Water Pressures at the depth of the blow-out is 2,300 PSI. None of the tools used were tested or DESIGNED for that much pressure.

If you were to try to drive your car under that pressure, it most likely would be like trying to rope and ride a flounder!
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #11 on: 12/06/2010 20:34:43 »
I agree with everything that JimBob has said; it was the finger pointing, before any real investigation had been done that annoyed me.

Notwithstanding the point about the equipment being applied beyond its design limits, which is absolutely true in this case, I strongly suspect that this event will turn out to be like many others, where just one or two failures, in either equipment or procedures would not have caused a problem on the scale that it has and that it required a series of failures to bring it about.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #12 on: 12/06/2010 20:52:02 »
I doubt if BP is going to agree that they are using equipment beyond its design limits. That would really be asking for trouble.
 

Offline chris

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #13 on: 13/06/2010 12:02:59 »
All excellent points; thanks.

For my part, I am very disappointed in the behaviour of Barack Obama. I had him pegged as far my sensible and politically astute than to behave the way he has. Using phrases like "someone's ass to kick" is appalling and not constructive (aside from the cruelty to animals aspects - what has a donkey got to do with it anyway?).

It also totally ignores the fact that we're all in a global recession because greedy US bankers poisoned the housing market well with their subprime assets. But we didn't see Gordon or Tony on the phone to the US "looking for some American Banking "ass" to boot"; instead we just accepted that this is the cost of capitalism and these things happen.

Obama should do likewise.

Chris
 

Offline LeeE

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #14 on: 13/06/2010 12:50:12 »
According to Wikipedia, the Deepwater Horizon rig was designed to operate up to a maximum drill depth of 30000 ft, but it had actually set a new record by reaching 35050 ft back in September 2009, on a different well in the Tiber oilfield (in a water depth of 4132 ft).

The planned depth of the Macondo prospect well was 18000 ft, which in 5000 ft of water amounted to a drill depth of 23000 ft, which was within design limits (5000 ft of water was also within the rig's design limit of 8000 ft water depth).

The latest thing I've heard is that the US Coastguard has given BP 48 hours to come up with a better plan to deal with the accident: at the time I'm posting this it probably means they have about 24 hours left.  As neither the US Coastguard, nor anyone else, is really in a better position to deal with the problem, all that this demand does is set BP up to fail, which I suspect is the real reason the demand has been made; if BP is deemed not to have complied with this demand then they will seem even more culpable, opening the way for greater compensation claims, above and beyond those appropriate for the actual damage caused.

What seems pretty clear, at least on this side of the pond, is that rather than just dealing with the problem, the the US authorities are more concerned with milking BP for as much money as possible.  In the long term this will be bad for the US as they will seen to be risky partners to do business with and it will ultimately lead to an increase in the US cost of living.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #15 on: 13/06/2010 18:29:00 »
Lee,

That's interesting. If they were operating beyond design limits, somebody has some serious explaining to do. It would also tend to reinforce my impression of "flying by the seat of the pants". However, apart from the drilling mechanisms, why did the multiple fail-safe devices fail to work? I really hope they were not outside their design limits. If they were, that's truly foolhardy.

Chris,

You are right. It really was not necessary for Obama to come down so hard on BP. BP's senior management has done a more than adequate job of demonstrating their ineptitude and an amazing lack of empathy without needing any help.

Also, BP is a multinational corporation. The "B" (despite anything Obama may have said) no longer stands for British. Furthermore, BP is as much a financial institution as it is a technological institution, if not more so. It is driven, to a great extent, by the "bottom line" in an industry that is intrinsically very risky. It's shareholders (that includes me BTW) better not be assuming the big rewards do not come without the big risks. Not only that, if they think BP is somehow interested in acting in the best interests of the UK, they are deluding themselves. If that's what the UK expects, it better nationalize BP right now.

Also, you seem to be suggesting that "greedy bankers" (no pun intended) are a breed that is confined to the USA. A certain bank that I am quite familiar with (RBS) became so ambitious and over-leveraged, that the UK taxpayers are now paying for that little fiasco.




   
 

Offline rosy

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #16 on: 13/06/2010 19:55:38 »
I was disappointed by Obama's comments on "British Petroleum". I had thought the people working for him could do better than to send him out so inadequately briefed as not to know it's years since BP stood for anything at all... especially given the potential for causing completely unnecessary trans-atlantic tensions. Given that it was Britain he was (by implication) having a dig at, he's going to get away without a diplomatic incident, but I think he's been lucky.

The more general issue is murky in the extreme.

Talk of "flying by the seat of the pants" is all very well, and indeed it is very apparent that someone has been doing so, but the heaping of blame on BP (whilst very possibly merited) seems liable to allow some of the other participants in this spectacular balls-up to get off excessively lightly.

This was Transocean's rig, staffed by transocean's people. BP may have had oversight of what was going on, and since it was BP's drilling contract, presumably legal responsibility, but the failures must have been at least as much Transocean's. Given that Transocean have form on not keeping their blow out preventors up to scratch - the British Health and Safety Executive, HSE, made them fix (some aspect of) one on a North Sea rig in 2005 - BP, knowing that, should perhaps have been keeping a tighter rein, but equally, presumably Transocean had told BP the blow out preventor was duly in place (one imagines the investigation will sort out the paper trail).

Also, the debate over the clear-up costs (as seen from this side of the ponbd, where I suspect we're getting less blanket coverage) has a certain black comedy to it. The permissions to drill for oil in those deep waters must have been negotiated between the oil companies and (some aspect of) the US government at some point. Surely someone within whatever bureau it was must have given some thought to the worst case scenario, and what that might cost to deal with. I'm no geo-engineer, but frankly an initial calculation based on how much oil might escape in the case of a serious  blow-out, how such oil might be expected to  be distributed as it rose to the surface, how widespread the resulting slick might be expected to be and which coastlines it would affect, could have been achieved on the back of an envelope and shown to be vastly more than the originally negotiated excess. The astonishingly low level at which that excess appears to have been set suggests to me that there was an eagerness on the part of the authorities that suggests that america may have been "flying by the seat of its pants" to some extent too.

Of course, I'm naturally fairly cynical. I've speculated about all sorts of ulterior motives that might be at work amongst the many people standing up on their hind legs to talk to the media about this issue. There's the straight BP (mainly) British/Transocean (mainly) American issue.. being discussed in the British media, but I think that's a bit simplistic.. but then there's the question of sustained oil supplies from rigs elsewhere in the world operated by BP and/or Transocean. Can BP afford to point the finger at Transocean, given that they have to maintain a relationship with them all over the world. If either BP or Transocean collapsed financially, what would happen to the oil currently coming from their wells? Would there be an interruption to the supply? If one company or the other were to go to the wall, which would spell the most trouble? Which company has the resources to survive the hit?

I think it's important to keep "fault" seperate from "responsibility". BP very clearly has a responsibility to put everything they can into the clear-up operation. It also seems indisputeabe that BP carries a significant weight of guilt. The danger with the current media storm is that there seems to be a risk that other people, who are also at fault but on whom no responsibility for the clear-up can be pinned (for example because they're an office of the american government or a subcontractor) may be allowed to slide under the radar when they should be being held to account.

In the current bloody-awful financial climate there's an extent to which responsibility first, blame second has to apply as the US probably needs BP's cash for the clear-up in the short term which is, of course, the priority... but the equating of "responsibility" with "blame" shouldn't go on too long because it is only by working out exactly what went wrong and how best to improve practices in the future, not just in terms of oil drilling but more generally in terms of regulatory restraint, that any progress can be made and future disasters made more unlikely.
 

Offline bhold

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #17 on: 13/06/2010 23:53:17 »
This well is much deeper than the media is telling us - surprise??  It is actually more like 35000 ft below the sea floor which is a mile below the surface of the ocean. Pressure of the well is rumored to be around 70000 psi which in not possible for man to deal with.  The only option in my view is to construct a mile long conduit over the well and capture all the oil as it comes up to the surface and it pump into ships. I would sure like to know WHAT BP is doing about it.  The retarded media is silent - are they dumbfounded?
 

Offline JimBob

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #18 on: 14/06/2010 01:30:52 »
For my part, I am very disappointed in the behaviour of Barack Obama.

Welcome to the cesspool that US politics has become. He was baited. Only today on a news show reviewing how the news media (CNN's Reliable Sources) is reacting to the politics of things the full clip was played.  The remark was from a media person asking him "Why aren't you out there kicking ass and taking names?"" He was asked the same question twice in a different manner whit "kicking ass"

The media here is after a sound bite that will sell. Each time it is played on another network, the originating network gets paid.

Obama is receiving a LOT of criticism because he is reacting calmly, - measured words, calm demeanor. He is like a professor who has seen and done everything.

NOW, that does not mean I go for everything he says or does. I am a fiscal conservative

Obama not an emotional person, period. Meanwhile, the American public is getting dumber by the minute. It has been called in one title of book on the subject "The Dumbing Down of America" This book documents the way the overall education and associated learned intelligence of the public in general has gone form a level of 9 years of education to 4 years. It is getting lower all the time. This also means that as they learn little of their outside the learn less about their own emotional character as well. It is why there is NOTHING like the BBC news in the US. There is mostly screaming, shouting and dueling talking heads. CNN is possible the most b.alanced but they are falling in the ratings because of this. So hey get two people of the different sides on every issue as commentators and have them shout at each other for 10 minutes about a subject WITHOUT  - any fact checking. BOTH  sides of the argument are wrong as the truth is usually in the middle.

On the one program today the question was asked "why do we always eat our own?"

Unfortunately, we do. And the American Media alienates our friends in the process.
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #19 on: 14/06/2010 05:13:12 »
JimBob,

Maybe you have formed a different view, but I don't get the impression that Obama's reaction would have been much different in a similar situation where the lead company happened to be a US based multinational - not that US based, or UK based means a heck of a lot anyway. It's simply a matter of laws and taxes. As I seem to remember, Exxon got absolutely hammered over the Exxon Valdez disaster.

I'm sure the US media is looking for any possible angles, but I have not detected any "anti-British" sentiment here. Apart from Obama's inept, and possibly Freudian comment re. "British Petroleum", I'm not aware of anyone making a big deal out the British angle (but then, I don't waste my time with CNN!)

What is interesting is that the media in the UK (which has been highly critical of just about anything in the US for some time) has seized on Obama's comment to stir things up to the greatest possible extent. And they seem to be doing a jolly good job too - QEDTNS.

Once more, for those who may not have been paying attention: BP is not a "British" company, and it has not been for a considerable time. It's a multinational corporation that is owned by its shareholders.

If BP has been playing on its heritage to imply something else, it's up to the shareholders to vote with their feet. If the government in the UK has implied to the citizens of the UK that BP has some special relationship with the UK, then the taxpayers in the UK better lookout. (Is BP "too big to fail"?) If the media in the UK is suggesting that BP is something other than a multinational corporation, they are simply trying to stir up jingoistic claptrap in order to sell their wares. (Hint - The remarkably invisible chairman of BP is Swedish, and he had no prior experience in the oil business.)

Rosy,

Agreed; blame and responsibility are not the same thing. We seem to agree that BP is responsible. If nobody is to blame, then the events that transpired would be due to some unforeseen set of circumstances that no one could have anticipated, e.g. a seismic event, an atmospheric event, a totally unknown scientific phenomenon, etc., etc.

Absent some unforeseeable set of circumstances, I suspect some blame is unavoidable. BP and Transocean need to sort that out, and if they can't, it will probably be sorted out for them.

BP's shareholders were not asked to decide who BP should, or should not, subcontract to. They probably assumed that, based on its long experience in this field, BP knew what it was doing. Sorry, but not witstanding anything you may have seen in the UK media, the way things stand, the buck stops with BP. How BP sorts that out with its subs ought to be up to them.

Chris,

Pardon me, but other than your average Manchester Guardian anti-US sentiment, can you explain what on Earth any of this has to do with the those Evil Greedy US (and UK) Bankers? Are you actually suggesting that they somehow conspired to sabotage this drilling operation because they had shorted BP's stock? Or perhaps you were simply venting your spleen at the US.

In any event, it sounds like a good screenplay for another Austin Powers movie if you ask me.


Maybe it's not such a good idea to get too political on TNS. Only sayin'
« Last Edit: 14/06/2010 07:37:10 by Geezer »
 

Offline rosy

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #20 on: 14/06/2010 10:12:29 »
Geezer - yes, I agree that the buck stops with BP. They were overall responsible for the rig, and apparently were caught napping by a catastrophe. And it's obvious even from the information currently available that this is not a no-blame situation, I hope I didn't appear to suggest that it was because it's self-evidently a stupid attitude.

On the other hand there are two important things which must be done in the event of any bad thing happening. One is fixing the mess, and the buck of responsibility stops with BP (even if, in the strict legal sense, it shouldn't.. because someone screwed up). But as important is the matter of preventing future disasters, and that absolutely mustn't be a matter for BP and Transocean to sort out for themselves - it needs to be a proper independent enquiry conducted with legally mandated access to the full paper trail and all the (surviving) personel involved. I don't know what provision the american system has for proper independent inquiries, but presumably there's an equivalent of a public inquiry in the UK...
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #21 on: 14/06/2010 12:04:24 »
Regarding BP blame - In the industry I think a deal is being made of the fact that three of the last big problems in US oil were all BP based.  The Deepwater Horizon that everyone knows about, the Texas City Refinery explosion and fire (ongoing investigation/court case - 15 people died) and the breach of the prudhoe bay pipeline.  In the previous two incidents BP were found to be very cavalier with safety protocols, lacking continuous maintenance standards, and unwilling to invest in a preventative manner.   Matthew
 

Offline tommya300

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #22 on: 14/06/2010 13:40:50 »
Geezer - yes, I agree that the buck stops with BP. They were overall responsible for the rig, and apparently were caught napping by a catastrophe. And it's obvious even from the information currently available that this is not a no-blame situation, I hope I didn't appear to suggest that it was because it's self-evidently a stupid attitude.

On the other hand there are two important things which must be done in the event of any bad thing happening. One is fixing the mess, and the buck of responsibility stops with BP (even if, in the strict legal sense, it shouldn't.. because someone screwed up). But as important is the matter of preventing future disasters, and that absolutely mustn't be a matter for BP and Transocean to sort out for themselves - it needs to be a proper independent enquiry conducted with legally mandated access to the full paper trail and all the (surviving) personel involved. I don't know what provision the American system has for proper independent inquiries, but presumably there's an equivalent of a public inquiry in the UK...

Everyone appears to be the victim of circumstances. Everyone is affected from this dealing of cards.
If the dealer is playing as a straight up shooter, there should be an overall total satisfaction.
If the dealer is stacking the deck and dealing from the bottom of the deck, well that changes the game.
It is no longer playing a fair game and the dealer needs to be dealt with.

There is nothing stupid about this, just the essence of over confident intelligence! I say, "essence,"  because that is all that is left.

The glass of confidence, when this glass is full, it over flows into a well known realm, relative to an observers point of view. It dampens onto the outsides, which funnels into the bottom of the inferno core of stupidity, fueling this inferno, heating the glass and evaporating the constance, leaving it readily available to be replenished.

Relaxing procedures is a form of cutting corners, to gain in profit. Blinded by the lustrous glimmer,
it is greed Mr.Steed!
 Just because the signs of Pavlov's dog does not appear, as the dinner bell is heard, does not mean it isn't there.
 
I believe it was a cascade of human error, relaxing of procedures, which is similar to, not looking both ways before walking across the street. Over the years, it appears the/this action is redundant?

There should be no monetary cap, no paper trail development, no nickel and dime type transactions!
BP's sluggishness seems to demand the necessary steps to establish, no to emphasize, their legal bound not only on the financial aspect, but to physically magnify the repair efforts, relating to all the aspects of this disaster and a vital virtual displacement pump to get them to cough it up faster...
BP's problems with their contractors is an issue just between them and only them.

Nothing is 100% when dealing with success to failure statistics, human intervention can upset this balance, either way.
No "Divine intervention guarantee" exists to provide 100% success.
As long there is a 100% duty cycle on greed, there will be some mechanical breakdown within any mechanism. Probability factors, into the equation.
Prevention through abstinence is the closest we can get, Humanly possible.

Hey I bet they can clog up the oil well with all that independent bureaucratic paper trail.
Along side BP's successes and profiteering, they should reap their path of failures along with it.
"You reap what you sow"
« Last Edit: 14/06/2010 15:44:52 by tommya300 »
 

Offline tommya300

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #23 on: 14/06/2010 14:24:47 »
.
If this sounds like America bashing I'm sorry, but I suspect if Transocean had been the British company and BP the US company, the media and government pressure in attributing blame might have looked somewhat different.

Put away this virtual discrimination factor, factory.
This is busness at its finest. No matter who, what, where and when this disaster occured the focus will always be on the immediate entity responsable.

Look at the first Government/CEO gathering. It was easier to pull teeth from a shark, then is was to get a straight answer from 3 companies involved with this O-Well rigging.

It was like three 3rd graders, tripping over each other pointing the blame to each other. Like one big circular J - off with the promise that the check is in the mail.
 After seeing that exibition, in short, how can these guys maintain their representation of their company's credability?
 You nalmost feel that they should be made experienced to the ole time Keel Hull procedure, once a day for every 2 days, unlimited.
.
« Last Edit: 14/06/2010 14:34:27 by tommya300 »
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #24 on: 15/06/2010 00:06:31 »
Geezer - yes, I agree that the buck stops with BP. They were overall responsible for the rig, and apparently were caught napping by a catastrophe. And it's obvious even from the information currently available that this is not a no-blame situation, I hope I didn't appear to suggest that it was because it's self-evidently a stupid attitude.

On the other hand there are two important things which must be done in the event of any bad thing happening. One is fixing the mess, and the buck of responsibility stops with BP (even if, in the strict legal sense, it shouldn't.. because someone screwed up). But as important is the matter of preventing future disasters, and that absolutely mustn't be a matter for BP and Transocean to sort out for themselves - it needs to be a proper independent enquiry conducted with legally mandated access to the full paper trail and all the (surviving) personel involved. I don't know what provision the american system has for proper independent inquiries, but presumably there's an equivalent of a public inquiry in the UK...

Absolutely agree Rosy. At this point it's crying over spilled milk. A lot of people in the US and the UK are going to suffer as a result of this calamity. The best we can do is try to clean up the mess as quickly as possible, and figure out what went wrong so that we can prevent another occurrence.

Sadly, I'm sure this will drag through the law courts for years to come. BP's CEO did go on the record and say that BP would make good the situation, however, I'm not sure he really understood the true scale of the problem at that point.
 

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Re: Could BP blow up the oil well to stop the leak?
« Reply #24 on: 15/06/2010 00:06:31 »

 

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