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Author Topic: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?  (Read 7806 times)

Offline neilep

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What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« on: 09/01/2006 20:58:17 »
Dearest Lovely Darlings of Enviable IQ ratings (I never took that IQ test..I failed at...' what's your name  ? ')  anyway...(sorry...don't mean to digress..............yes i do !)

Setting aside my mindless drivel.....I understand that flowers procreate by being well sexy in insects eyes...they achieve this by displaying lurid insect arousing colours (the sexy heathen come-hither floral temptresses !!) and offering juicy pollen and fragrant stuff !!

...so...(finally)....which came first ?...the colour , the fragrance ? or the  insect ?....... to make naughty symbiotic fun.

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
« Last Edit: 09/01/2006 23:06:30 by neilep »


 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #1 on: 09/01/2006 22:02:04 »
Well the plant came first and the first plants must of had some form of colour.
but the insects must have appeared before the plants evolved a way to use them to spread pollen.
Also some of the insects which pollinate plants are colourblind and are attracted by fragrance .
   
so maybe your question should be... what came first colour or fragrance:)

Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #2 on: 09/01/2006 22:45:45 »
Is that a well-dressed tiger? NO... it's a dandy lion!

Sorry [V]
 

Offline neilep

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #3 on: 09/01/2006 23:02:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

 maybe your question should be... what came first colour or fragrance:)

Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    



I have altered my query to make appropriate the asking of scenty fun !!

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #4 on: 09/01/2006 23:57:54 »
Wheat a minute... you altered it. I'd grass you up but I don't want us to become anemones! [:I]
 

Offline neilep

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #5 on: 10/01/2006 00:04:00 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

Wheat a minute... you altered it. I'd grass you up but I don't want us to become anemones! [:I]



kicks chair from under feet !

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #6 on: 10/01/2006 00:19:39 »
WAAAAAA :(
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #7 on: 10/01/2006 00:22:18 »
Hydrangea (I'd arrange a?) funeral for myself if I thought you were cerealous.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #8 on: 10/01/2006 00:23:20 »
I apologise in advance for this 1:-

Michael J Foxglove in "Back To The Fuschia"
 

another_someone

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #9 on: 10/01/2006 05:40:33 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

Well the plant came first and the first plants must of had some form of colour.
but the insects must have appeared before the plants evolved a way to use them to spread pollen.
Also some of the insects which pollinate plants are colourblind and are attracted by fragrance .
   



Totally untrue (at least as far as land plants are concerned).

Animals colonised the land some considerable time before plants did.  Flowering plants came very much later yet.

True, algae came before either, and they certainly had colour, in the case of blue-green algae (the first life to invent photosynthesis), the colour is self explanatory.
 

another_someone

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #10 on: 10/01/2006 05:51:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Setting aside my mindless drivel.....I understand that flowers procreate by being well sexy in insects eyes...they achieve this by displaying lurid insect arousing colours (the sexy heathen come-hither floral temptresses !!) and offering juicy pollen and fragrant stuff !!

...so...(finally)....which came first ?...the colour , the fragrance ? or the  insect ?....... to make naughty symbiotic fun.




Firstly, as I understand it, plants don't look sexy to insects, they look like food which is what they provide to insects I am not aware of any insect that tries to mate with a plant.

Flowering plants (angiosperms) arrived during the Jurassic period (203-135 million years ago) , which is very, very, recent in the geological scale of things.

Insects are visible in the geological records (although they may have existed earlier) about 350 million years ago.  Of course, not all insects are pollinators, but then neither are all pollinators insects.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #11 on: 10/01/2006 06:16:31 »
Thank you another_someone.

I was kind of jesting about the interspecies sex thing !!...but from your post above...it seems the insect came first !!..premature insectulation !! (sorry for crude pun...I get like that after 40 hours of wakeful elation !)

thanks

Neil

ps: In fact I'm surprised Eth didn't know that about the early insects..after all...he was there !! ;)

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
« Last Edit: 10/01/2006 06:18:01 by neilep »
 

another_someone

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #12 on: 10/01/2006 07:46:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

sorry for crude pun...I get like that after 40 hours of wakeful elation !




Glad you had something to be elated about for all of 40 hours!
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #13 on: 10/01/2006 14:48:51 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

Thank you another_someone.

I was kind of jesting about the interspecies sex thing !!...but from your post above...it seems the insect came first !!..premature insectulation !! (sorry for crude pun...I get like that after 40 hours of wakeful elation !)

thanks

Neil

ps: In fact I'm surprised Eth didn't know that about the early insects..after all...he was there !! ;)

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!



hmmmph [:(!]
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #14 on: 10/01/2006 17:22:31 »
quote:
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY ANOTHER_SOMEONE
Totally untrue (at least as far as land plants are concerned).

Animals colonised the land some considerable time before plants did. Flowering plants came very much later yet.

True, algae came before either, and they certainly had colour, in the case of blue-green algae (the first life to invent photosynthesis), the colour is self explanatory.



No I'm afraid your wrong.
I agree the Pollen-bearing plants don't appear in the fossil record until later, but plant life on land didnt start with them.

what do you think the animals had for lunch ,if you check out the  Fossil evidence you will see that plants populated the land a long time before animals, the first land animals the arthropods didnt come out of the water until there were enough plants/food to make it worthwhile.
The Insects evolved from these first amphibious arthropods that vetured out to eat the already establised plants.



Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 10/01/2006 17:33:00 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #15 on: 10/01/2006 19:29:31 »
Early plants did not generally use insects to propagate themselves so the insects came first and the flowering plants found out how to make use of them the insects then adapted to make more use of them in a symbiotic relationship.

One of the least well described features of evolution is that the real winners are the ones that cooperate with each other both within species and across ecosystems.

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
 

another_someone

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #16 on: 11/01/2006 01:57:15 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky


No I'm afraid your wrong.
I agree the Pollen-bearing plants don't appear in the fossil record until later, but plant life on land didnt start with them.

what do you think the animals had for lunch ,if you check out the  Fossil evidence you will see that plants populated the land a long time before animals, the first land animals the arthropods didnt come out of the water until there were enough plants/food to make it worthwhile.
The Insects evolved from these first amphibious arthropods that vetured out to eat the already establised plants.




I suspect we are both a little right and a little wrong.

Your argument that animals need plants is erroneous.  You are right that animals need to feed on something that is not animal, but that can be fungi, algae, bacteria; or they could even have lived on land but near water, and fed off marine life.

My Apologies about my error. [:I]  At very least it was incorrect of me to suggest that animals colonised land long before plants.  It has not been yet possible for me to find a definitive answer to which colonised land first, but it seems that there could not have been a great deal of difference between them.

Clearly, plant fossils do not survive as well as animal skeletons, on the other hand the earliest animals would have probably been soft bodied anyway, so they too cannot be sure to have been preserved.  Thus most of what we know is what we don't know.

http://www.bris.ac.uk/researchreview/2005/1115989443
quote:

The oldest body fossil of a land animal is a 430-million-year-old millipede from Scotland. Body fossils are extremely rare from this time in Earth history, but there is another source of evidence that supplies clues to when ancient life first stepped out of the sea


A few years ago there was a ground-breaking discovery in a quarry near Kingston, Ontario in Canada. Fossilised trackways, preserved in a coastal dune deposit, revealed that arthropods first conquered the land around 500 million years ago, some 50 million years earlier than we previously thought.



http://www.jncc.gov.uk/earthheritage/gcrdb/GCRblock.asp?block=67
quote:

Nevertheless, from the earliest inter-tidal vegetation of the Silurian Period (425 million years ago), plants progressively became established on land, and eventually developed into the lush tropical wetland forests of the Late Carboniferous Period (300 million years ago).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian
quote:

The Silurian is a major division of the geologic timescale that extends from the end of the Ordovician period, about 443.7 Ma (million years ago), to the beginning of the Devonian period, about 416.0 Ma (ICS 2004).


The first fossil records of vascular plants, that is, land plants with tissues that carry food, appeared in the Silurian period.



http://www.uni-muenster.de/GeoPalaeontologie/Palaeo/Palbot/seite3.html
quote:

The earliest vascular land plants appeared about 425 million years ago in the late Early  Silurian.  This form, Cooksonia, consisted of small naked, dichotomously bifurcting axes bearing terminal sporangia. These plants were only a few centimeters high. Baragwanathia is a much more robust plant consisting of up to 30 cm long axes with spirally arranged leaves and it has been described from the Upper Silurian of Australia; unfortunately, the quality of the compressions is rather poor and no organic material is preserved.
The Early Devonian is characterized by a very strong radiation of land plants.  Four  major groups can be distinguished: the Rhyniophytes, the Zosterophyllophytes, the Lycopods and the Trimerophytes.  The Rhyniophytes are definitely among the best known land plants.



http://www.devoniantimes.org/opportunity/opportunity.html
quote:

These changes center on the emergence and diversification of semi-aquatic and terrestrial tracheophytes (vascular plants). Fossil spores belonging to bryophytes (nonvascular plants such as liverworts and mosses) are known from as early as the Middle Ordovician. The trilete spores of pre-trachaeophytes first occur in the late Early Silurian as does the famous early fossil plant Cooksonia. These and other early plants, which are referred to as the rhyniophytes, diversify from the late Silurian through the Middle Devonian into the two major trachaeophyte clades: lycophytes (barinophytes, zosterophyllophytes and lycopsids) and euphyllophytes (trimerophytes, ferns, sphenopsids, progymnosperms, and seed plants).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordovician
quote:

The Ordovician period started at a minor extinction event, possibly caused by a gamma ray burst, some time about 488.3 million years ago (mya) and lasted for about 50-80 million years. It ended with a major extinction event about 443.7 mya (ICS, 2004) that wiped out 60% of marine genera.


In North America and Europe, the Ordovician was a time of shallow continental seas rich in life. Trilobites and brachiopods in particular were rich and diverse. The first bryozoa appear in the Ordovician as do the first coral reefs. Solitary corals date back to at least the Cambrian. Molluscs, which had also appeared during the Cambrian, become common and varied, especially bivalves, gastropods, and nautiloid cephalopods. It was long thought that the first true vertebrates (fish - Ostracoderms) appeared in the Ordovician, but recent discoveries in China reveal that they probably originated in the early Cambrian. Now-extinct marine animals called graptolites thrived in the oceans. Some cystoids and crinoids appeared. The first terrestrial plants appeared in the form of tiny plants resembling liverworts.


 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #17 on: 11/01/2006 04:09:51 »
quote:
suspect we are both a little right and a little wrong.




I think that's probablyabout right.


i did find this link in regards to DNA evidence which suggests that plants came along much earlier than previously thought. i don't know if its been proved though

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/08/010810070021.htm

Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 11/01/2006 04:10:14 by ukmicky »
 

ROBERT

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #18 on: 11/01/2006 14:23:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Firstly, as I understand it, plants don't look sexy to insects, they look like food which is what they provide to insects I am not aware of any insect that tries to mate with a plant.




What about the Bee Orchid ?
http://www.wildaboutkent.co.uk/Locations/Monkton/Bee%20Orchid.htm
It looks like an alluring apis to me, more importantly it looks attractive to male bees.
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461542195/Bee_Orchid.html
« Last Edit: 11/01/2006 15:51:04 by ROBERT »
 

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Re: What came 1st, the colour ? smell ? the insect ?
« Reply #18 on: 11/01/2006 14:23:14 »

 

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