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Author Topic: Why can't dark matter be time?  (Read 4737 times)

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« on: 03/08/2010 06:47:24 »
i would like to know why people aren't looking into dark matter as being time's physical form. ???


 

Offline JP

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #1 on: 03/08/2010 07:34:27 »
They have completely different properties.  Dark matter attracts things gravitationally.  Time doesn't.

Even more fundamentally, they're totally different concepts.  Dark matter is "stuff" that lives within spacetime while time is a dimension of spacetime.  Dark matter and time are somewhat abstract concepts, but asking "is dark matter the physical form of time" is the same basic kind of question as asking "is a pebble the physical form of [the direction] up?"  (Both are comparing two completely different concepts.)
 

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #2 on: 04/08/2010 02:41:26 »
The main issue I'm having with your post is that your assuming time can't be stuff. In all reality we don't even know what time is. The way we measure time is based off of the movements of the sun and earth. those movements are technically due to gravity.

 We know that dark matter carries its own gravitational pull and allows matter to form galaxies. Dark matter still exists where matter does not, but matter does not exist outside of dark matter. We have never been outside of dark matter as we have never been outside of time.  How do we know that dark matter is not what allows time to exist outside of matter?
 

Offline JP

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #3 on: 04/08/2010 03:50:18 »
The main issue I'm having with your post is that your assuming time can't be stuff. In all reality we don't even know what time is. The way we measure time is based off of the movements of the sun and earth. those movements are technically due to gravity.
One way of measuring time is to use the regular motions of the planets, but that's not a definition of time, that's a consequence of how gravity works.  The second is defined by using atomic transitions, which depend on electromagnetism, not gravity.

Quote
We know that dark matter carries its own gravitational pull and allows matter to form galaxies. Dark matter still exists where matter does not, but matter does not exist outside of dark matter. We have never been outside of dark matter as we have never been outside of time.  How do we know that dark matter is not what allows time to exist outside of matter?

I don't think there's any evidence that matter requires dark matter to exist... Matter simply interacts via gravity and electromagnetism and dark matter simply interacts only via gravity.

We know that time isn't caused by dark matter because we can measure it by using electromagnetism, and dark matter doesn't interact via electromagnetism.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #4 on: 04/08/2010 18:10:53 »
Science can't explain the galaxy rotation curve or the pioneer anomaly so there are only two solutions. We either admit one of our laws has a problem or invent dark matter. Guess which one they will choose?
« Last Edit: 04/08/2010 18:13:47 by Ron Hughes »
 

Offline LeeE

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #5 on: 04/08/2010 18:42:10 »
...but asking "is dark matter the physical form of time" is the same basic kind of question as asking "is a pebble the physical form of [the direction] up?"...

I agree entirely.
 

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #6 on: 04/08/2010 19:20:10 »
Tell me, which scientific law says that time cannot be substance?
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #7 on: 04/08/2010 23:56:03 »
No the boot must be on the other foot!  You must tell us the sort of substance that time could be to produce the properties of time that we experience and possibly some extra properties that allow it to fit within the physical laws that we can observe for the concept to be taken seriously.
 

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #8 on: 05/08/2010 01:04:43 »
Since when has science said "you must prove to us you are right before we will explore your idea" ? i never claimed to be a physicist (i'm just an amateur philosopher), but i do know that no one has given me a reason to think my idea is wrong. maybe i did begin my question when it was not all that well thought out, but you who claim to know physics have yet to give me scientific reasoning why my idea is non-sense. that is other than

I don't think there's any evidence that matter requires dark matter to exist... Matter simply interacts via gravity and electromagnetism and dark matter simply interacts only via gravity.

We know that time isn't caused by dark matter because we can measure it by using electromagnetism, and dark matter doesn't interact via electromagnetism.
By the way, we use wave lengths to measure time not electromagnetism.

If i had known i would be greeted by elitist physicist's who refuse to explore an idea that is beyond their own reasoning i would have gone else where. I never stated my idea was right, i just asked you to prove it wrong. You have yet to do that. [^]
 

Offline JP

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #9 on: 05/08/2010 02:25:21 »
If you want to propose a new theory, that's fine, but the Physics, Astronomy and Cosmology forum is for science Q&A and discussion in terms of mainstream theory.  I've pointed out a reason time cannot be dark matter within the framework of mainstream physics.  There is no scientific law saying "time can't be dark matter," but it's an assumption in how they're treated within existing theories.

I agree that if you rewrite the laws of physics, you could postulate that time=dark energy from the start and develop your theory from there, but the universe it described would probably have little in common with our universe.  In order to have your model considered as legitimate science, you have to show that it at least agrees with what we observe in the universe.

If you do want to propose a new theory that has different laws from mainstream physics, there's a forum for discussion outside the mainsteam:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?board=18.0
 

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #10 on: 05/08/2010 03:51:33 »
Tell me, which laws would have to be rewritten? Thats all I've been asking for and none of you so far have been able to give me a straight answer. And JP you did not give me a reason it couldn't work within mainstream physics. You gave me the way we most accurately measure time, the second/minute/hour are all man-made extensions of days and years and really have no true relevance in this discussion.
 

Offline JP

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #11 on: 05/08/2010 04:30:38 »
Tell me, which laws would have to be rewritten? Thats all I've been asking for and none of you so far have been able to give me a straight answer.

I've given you two straight answers.  Here they are again:

1) Time is a dimension, and dark matter is something that lives within the four dimensions of spacetime.  They can't be the same since a dimension cannot be the same as something that lives within a dimension.

2) Dark matter can only be measured by using gravity.  Time can be measured without using gravity.    Therefore, they aren't the same.

Claiming "but we don't know what time really is" doesn't solve these problems, since we know perfectly well how to measure it and what its measurable properties are.  We also know very well what the properties of dark matter have to be.  The above two points are arguing that the properties of time are different from the properties of dark matter.
 

Offline Murchie85

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #12 on: 05/08/2010 12:37:47 »
Whoa, guys I think the topic has maybe strained a bit here.

Dm Philosopher, its really good that you express an idea and creativity and wish to share it with us and we can' t fault you there good stuff. Although I am inclined to agree with the masses in that your theory just wouldn't fit the standard model and current physics as a whole.

Time is an extension of "matter", it is a man made concept and has been well founded since Einstein the clue about dark matter is in the "matter" part in that matter effects time directly and are two different entities.

To prove you wrong completely may actually be a lot more strenuous that first thought although can be done with stating some of the laws of physics and applying some algebra & calculus rigorously.

Although without sounding condescending in any way (apologies if I do) , I think that you being quite a philosophical person you are holding "time" in some special regard and using it to solve a current problem in physics. Normally thats a good approach but as we have tried to state the differences and incompatibilities of the two in terms of being one in the same. I would recommend that you revise some books and material on the phenomena of time (there are a few good ones i can recommend for the general reader) as to better understand what we mean by it. If then you still hold to your opinion you would better be able to explain to us how.

Adam
 

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #13 on: 05/08/2010 16:20:55 »
"The path of scientific advance is often made impassable for a long time through such errors. For that reason, it is by no means an idle game if we become practiced in analyzing the long-commonplace concepts and exhibiting  those circumstances upon which their justification and usefulness depend, how they have grown up, individually, out of the givens of experience. By this means, their all-too-great authority will be broken." Einstein, 1916, "Memorial notice for Ernst Mach," Physikalische Zeitschrift 17: 101-02.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #14 on: 05/08/2010 16:29:33 »
Dark, I do not say you are wrong but since no one and I reiterate (NO ONE) has helt, felt or smelt dark matter or dark energy and the standard model has some gaping holes in it's shining armor with the invention particles, and again that no one has helt, felt or smelt, then it could be said you may be right.
 

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #15 on: 05/08/2010 17:05:04 »
i honestly don't care if i'm right or wrong, i just want discussion on the subject. all thats been given are empty answers with no substance, nothing to go off. i tried creating a post in theories to maybe get a more hypothetical discussion going but all i got was a post with the exact same thing thats been going on here. He also seemed to be afraid of what JP would think. I get the feeling that no one on this forum is willing to piss of JP and is only willing to give open answers that he approves of. And you guys call yourselves scientists. Seems like more of a religion to me.
 

Offline graham.d

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #16 on: 05/08/2010 17:33:38 »
With respect, dark, you should consider that many of us may simply agree with JP on this issue and do not see how to reasonably discuss a concept that, to me at least, makes no sense. As someone interested in Philosophy you may know of the hypothetical idea (I think from Zen) of trying to imagine the sound of one hand clapping; it may stretch the mind in some abstract way but it has little to do with science.
 

Offline darkmatterphilosopher

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #17 on: 05/08/2010 17:59:13 »
LOL....Don't worry about it guys i already got an answer from someone who had the information i needed to allow me to have a reasonable discussion on the subject. Something that you were all unable to acknowledge. Thanks for nothing guys [O8)]
 

Offline JP

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Why can't dark matter be time?
« Reply #18 on: 05/08/2010 18:12:00 »
i tried creating a post in theories to maybe get a more hypothetical discussion going but all i got was a post with the exact same thing thats been going on here. He also seemed to be afraid of what JP would think. I get the feeling that no one on this forum is willing to piss of JP and is only willing to give open answers that he approves of.

Actually, I think his comment about me is that I'm a moderator here and you were putting words in my mouth (and the other posters) who took time to try to explain to you why your proposal doesn't seem to make sense within mainstream physics.  No one called your question "stupid," and I'm sorry if you felt my responses were personal attacks.  I certainly didn't mean them that way.  However, this is a science board and you'll generally get answers in terms of mainstream science, including posters pointing out possible flaws in a proposed theory.

At any rate, since this has drifted well off of answering the original question, I'm going to lock this thread.  Further discussion can continue in the New Theories thread.
 

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Why can't dark matter be time?
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