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Author Topic: Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?  (Read 19957 times)

Offline JP

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #50 on: 22/08/2010 03:52:31 »
JP I have only just seen this reply.  Not sure why it did not come up before.

So you are saying that there are four dimensions plus a plane wave.  And the plane wave, which includes uncertainty relations, is not a fifth measure? 

With due respect that does not sound very convincing.  It has all the hallmarks of trying to provide adequate desciptors without challenging the 4D paradigm.  Just sweep uncertainty under the scientific carpet.

Little wonder some people are averse to having philosophers take a close look at scientific thought. 

Thank for the question and the explanation.

Regards, Clem.

That's exactly what I (and science, by the way) are saying. 

It is fairly clear that we come from rather different orientations.  You are obviously determined to hold on to your point of view, which is your prerogative. 

Indeed.  We've tried to discuss the scientific points, but your entire response seems to be to say "paradigm shift" to avoid discussing science.  I don't think there's much else to say on the matter.
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #51 on: 22/08/2010 11:06:47 »
Fine by me.

The issue is not about science per se, but about what the particular findings of science mean for society as a whole. 

The implications of the Copenhagen Interpretation extend well beyond physics. 

Incidentally, the notion of a five-dimensional universe is far from a new idea. 

Best wishes, Clem.
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #52 on: 25/08/2010 21:33:13 »
"Only the most profound minds think in terms of dimensions."
V. S. Alder
The Fifth Dimension

Where are the polymaths?
 

Offline imatfaal

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #53 on: 26/08/2010 11:48:53 »
the fact that you quote a famous mystic to bolster a scientific argument speaks volumes.  and further, that you decry the lack of polymaths on this forum is a little insulting from someone whose scientific knowledge is quite clearly of the wikipedia variety.  you have not provided a single argument that logically or scientifically backs up your claim.  in all honesty, with the lack of any support for your contention, you could replace 'uncertainty' with almost any abstract term and be in a similar position.

http://xkcd.com/675/

I think I am outta here

Regards - Matthew
 

Offline peppercorn

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #54 on: 26/08/2010 12:43:14 »
http://xkcd.com/675/



This deserves to be up for all to see! Possibly hanging over the entrance of the forum! Thanks to Matthew.

"Keep an open mind, but don't let it become an open sewer", someone cleaver
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #55 on: 28/08/2010 15:50:46 »
Matthew, Peppercorn,

The question behind the question is this: 

If uncertainty is so obviously the elusive fifth dimension, why has it not been identified as such?

Thank you.  You have answered that question in spades!

Regards, Sandstone.

 

Offline Geezer

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #56 on: 29/08/2010 05:22:27 »
I really prefer my postulate a lot more. It's pretty obvious that it's correct, even to the most casual observer.

Uncertainty is simply a function of the "jigglyness" of time. When you get down to very small dimensions, it's no longer possible to measure time because the time keeping apparatus consists of the system that is being "timed". At that point, the whole model goes circular and time becomes meaningless.
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #57 on: 29/08/2010 07:06:40 »
Thanks Geezer,

Regards, Sandstone.
 

Offline Geezer

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #58 on: 29/08/2010 08:04:05 »
Thanks Geezer,

Regards, Sandstone.

Most welcome Sandstone.

I was only half joking. Our concept of time is based on the motion, through space, of very large numbers of atoms. Therefore, there is some form of integration at play.

At the level of a single atom we can only observe time from our perspective, but the atom might have a totally different perspective.
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #59 on: 29/08/2010 09:15:00 »
Geezer,

The atom's perspective is an interesting way to think about it.  Bit like Einstein trying to imagine travelling along a light beam.

Thanks again.

Regards, Sandstone.
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #60 on: 02/09/2010 01:07:09 »
Any paradigm that omits uncertainty as a key component is out of touch with our current understanding of reality in a broad sense.  The new paradigm is five-dimensional space-change, where the dimensions of change are time and uncertainty.

For example, at any point in time, human beings are both being and becoming.  It is essentially a state of continual change, however rapid or slow that change may be.   

Best wishes, Sandstone.
 

Offline JP

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #61 on: 02/09/2010 10:30:29 »
I'm uncertain how I feel about having my paradigm shifted...
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #62 on: 02/09/2010 12:34:31 »

Greetings JP,

That is a classic statement of psychological uncertainty. 
It could also be a clever piece of satire.

However, you have hit on the paradox.  The reluctance to embrace uncertainty is directly related to the uncertainty it generates.  And tolerance of uncertainty is inversely related to the level of perceived consequence. A paradigm shift is no small matter. 

But what possibilities does such a paradigm shift offer?

It is possible that physicists have made a far greater contribution to humanity than they themselves fully comprehend.

Regards, Sandstone.



 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #63 on: 06/09/2010 06:39:42 »
Recently, a respondent questioned the relevance of a reference to V. S. Alder.  As it turns out, Alder's notion of the fifth dimension is one of emergence, which ironically aligns with the paradigm five-dimensional space-change.

In similar vein, we have Heisenberg on probability waves:

'It meant a tendency for something.  It was a quantitative version of the old concept of "potentia" in Aristotelian philosophy.  It introduced something standing in the middle between the idea of an event and the actual event, a strange kind of physical reality just in the middle between possibility and reality.'

'The reality of time and change is the crux of realism'.
Karl Popper.

Wisdom has many sources. 

Regards, Sandstone. 



 

Offline Geezer

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #64 on: 06/09/2010 07:02:27 »
I'm uncertain how I feel about having my paradigm shifted...

Wasn't there a song about that? I think one of the lines was

"Buddy can you pare-a-dime?"
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #65 on: 06/09/2010 10:22:40 »
Good one Geezer,

Came across this quote in a text on strategic management the other day:

'Men like the opinions to which they have become accustomed
from youth; this prevents them from finding the truth, for they cling to the opinions of habit.'

Moses Maimonides (1135-1204)
Egyptian physician and philosopher

Regards, Sandstone.
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #66 on: 08/09/2010 04:41:40 »
As mentioned earlier, the sources of wisdom are many. 

Some express their views more emphatically than others. 

'The old space-time model was smashed, replaced by a timeless, floating field of constant transformation.  This quantum field is not separate from us - it is us.'

Deepak Chopra,
Quantum Healing.

Five-dimensional space-change embraces this view.

Regards, Sandstone.
 

Offline JP

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #67 on: 08/09/2010 05:41:28 »
Emphatically expressed BS is still BS.  Quantum mysticism is largely nonsense that uses scientific-sounding mumbo-jumbo to make money from gullible people.
 

Offline Geezer

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #68 on: 08/09/2010 06:28:26 »
Emphatically expressed BS is still BS. 


I'm not sure I'd go that far JP. I've always found it to be a very effective technique.

Quantum mysticism is largely nonsense that uses scientific-sounding mumbo-jumbo to make money from gullible people.

There are a couple of very amusing observations in the latest SciAm regarding QM and Deepak Chopra.
 

Offline JP

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #69 on: 08/09/2010 07:01:52 »
Geezer and a Sheepy walk into a bar.  "I've always found there are two ways to express an opinion," says Geezer, "The normal way, and the Geezer way."

"What's the difference?" asks the Sheepy.

"The Geezer way is like the normal way, only louder."
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #70 on: 08/09/2010 08:56:16 »
Thanks JP,

That's an interesting point of view.  Were you aware that quantum healing has been used successfully in treating cancer patients?  Of note, remission is preceded by a state of psychological certainty which appears to have a direct influence on the change in metabolic state.

If you were to read widely on uncertainty you would find that it is a physical, psychological and spiritual dimension.

QM demonstrated that environmental or physical uncertainty is here to stay.  The challenge is to learn how to live with it.  The first step is to recognise for what it is ~ U=5D.

The universe is transformational at all levels.  A contemporary paradigm should reflect that.

Regards, Sandstone.
 

Offline JP

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #71 on: 09/09/2010 02:32:04 »
I can conclusively tell you that quantum quantum healing doesn't work on any principles involving quantum mechanics.  I wouldn't be surprised if patients improved due to the placebo effect because they believed it could help, but you could get the same effect if they believed that a witch doctor would help them.   Quantum healing doesn't have a monopoly on the placebo effect.

It is shameful that people are willing to fabricate the idea of "quantum healing" and other "science" myscticism in order to take money from desperate, ill people.

None of this, by the way, has anything to do with uncertainty as its used in physics.  Quantum mysticism is nonsense that has nothing to do with real quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle.
 

Offline sandstone

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #72 on: 09/09/2010 02:39:03 »
JP,

QM is only one aspect of uncertainty and, indeed, the universe.

Regards, Sandstone.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
« Reply #73 on: 10/09/2010 11:23:07 »
QM is only one aspect of uncertainty and, indeed, the universe.
This sort of statement has absolutely no validity in the context of scientific discourse.


Sandstone, you have repeatedly avoided discussing science at all.  All scientific enquires about your theory are met with apparently random statements and quotes that have no baring on the discussion.

As a result this thread is being locked.
If you wish to re-evaluate your ideas in a way that will allow them to be scientifically explored, then by all means start a new thread.  But, be aware that continuing to use pseudo-science or non-sequiturs as 'evidence' or replies will quickly result in repeated locking of threads.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2010 11:24:56 by peppercorn »
 

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Is uncertainty the fifth dimension?
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