The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Negative freedom how does it work?  (Read 10380 times)

Offline imatfaal

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2787
  • rouge moderator
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #25 on: 12/08/2010 17:11:21 »
The class which has the means of rhubarb crumble production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it.

To those who have studied social theory - I thoroughly recommend reading Marx and mentally replacing capital with crumble at every instance. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital/Chapter_4
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #26 on: 12/08/2010 17:19:37 »
And replace money with custard....  :)
 

Offline graham.d

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #27 on: 12/08/2010 17:27:39 »
There really is no Blofelt character (stroking a cat) controlling the world. There are people who wield power, but generally they have got there because they wanted to and the rest of us let them. And their power is limited. There is no fixed hegemony but rather a changing and mobile one and, though there is much inertia, it can and does change. There is no conspiracy with men in smoke filled rooms (probably smoke free nowadays) plotting how the world shall develop. Sure, there are those who try and some have political and financial influence, but their goals are usually much more simple. Politicians have a bad name but, generally (if not always), they are well intentioned and their power is hugely constrained by the system in which they work.

Societies do take on some anthropomorphic characteristics, and this concept is often reinforced by the media's use of shorthand comments on political matters by referring to a country having a point of view rather than just some of its people. There are people who wield influence of course, and it cannot be denied that lobby groups play a role in changing policies, but they can have influence one week and lose it the next. Sometimes these ideas can take hold of governments. The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein is worth a read if you can stick at it as an example of how political ideas can influence how governments behave. The influence of the lobby groups, like "The American Enterprise Institute" had a profound impact of the Bush administration in the USA is another example. But generally these are temporary, allbeit if over many years, and are not a built-in feature of the way society has to develop.

For better or worse much of what happens is rather out-of-control; the recent financial crisis being an example. Most things that go wrong (and some that go right) are cock-ups rather than conspiracies. This does not mean that the system dose not seem to behave in a controlled way, but that is how systems develop.

While I've been typing this lot 4 people have posted so sorry if it appears irrelevent.
 

Offline imatfaal

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2787
  • rouge moderator
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #28 on: 12/08/2010 17:30:16 »
So I am agent three now - do I get a uniform?  

Are you really positing the idea of complete ideological control?  You do realise that these ideas have been discussed to death, and most social theorists have moved on or refined their ideas?  I found Empire (hardt and negri) to be a good read (you can get it on the web but its a huge download) and gramsci's prison notebooks are an essential grounding - for a more detailed modern critical look you could try    
Jonathan Joseph, 'Hegemony: A Realist Analysis', Studies in Critical Realism, 2002 Routledge/London
Mark Rupert, ‘Producing Hegemony: The Politics of Mass Production and American Global Power.’ (1995)Cambridge University Press/Cambridge
 
 

Offline peppercorn

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1466
    • View Profile
    • solar
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #29 on: 12/08/2010 17:42:28 »
So I am agent three now - do I get a uniform?

You can still avoid becoming an agent of the evil empire...
Now where did I see that quote on wearing a special tin-foil hat!

I am now sat here in the dark.... wearing a rubber outfit and tin foil on my head to ward off lightening.
Oh, there it is! ... Works for lightening protection as well as mind-control, eh Variola!   ;D

imatfaal - Looks like you uniform should be rubber, er apparently  :o
 

Offline imatfaal

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2787
  • rouge moderator
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #30 on: 12/08/2010 17:48:40 »
Oh that's good I already have a rubber uniform   Damn Damn didnt mean to say that
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #31 on: 12/08/2010 18:33:42 »
Quote
Oh, there it is! ... Works for lightening protection as well as mind-control, eh Variola!   

imatfaal - Looks like you uniform should be rubber, er apparently 
   

 ;D ;D ;D

Well a word of warning about rubber outfits, they are not the most flattering to wear...especially if you have been devout to the cult of crumble and custard...!!
I don't need a beach body plan.... I need the Rubber Suit plan!!
It goes with my rubber walls.....and the jacket they give me to hug myself with....
 

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #32 on: 12/08/2010 19:33:27 »
I think it's all a load of old rowlocks.

There is no such thing as "neagative freedom". Freedom can only have a positive value. Seems to me these socialist scientist types need to crack the old math books a bit more.
 

Offline peppercorn

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1466
    • View Profile
    • solar
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #33 on: 12/08/2010 19:34:38 »
I don't need a beach body plan.... I need the Rubber Suit plan!!
Yeah, definitely avoid the beach body plan - Sand inside you rubber suit is a nightmare!! ... er, I imagine  :o
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #34 on: 12/08/2010 20:50:00 »
Quote
I'm just here to say bo---locks to that!
  

Well, thanks for that.

Say that alot I assume.
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #35 on: 12/08/2010 20:58:52 »
So I am agent three now - do I get a uniform?  

Are you really positing the idea of complete ideological control?  

That's impossible no one could achieve completely ideological control over everyone, don't be rediculas.
However ideological slavery does exist for those who have without thinking bought into it(capitalism) it is inherently from its inception a slave ideology, constructed to be so.

Besides the critic of the systems, here in this post- has nothing to do with ideological control, but rather ideological supression of those who think differently.

You do realise that these ideas have been discussed to death, and most social theorists have moved on or refined their ideas?  

Really all the scientist took the money and said "dont matter does it, I'm rich now, screw the people- who cares about freedom anyway" Please what a joke. And considering you previous statement about ideological control maybe your mixing the issues up- for scientist might have given up on ideologcal control.

I found Empire (hardt and negri) to be a good read (you can get it on the web but its a huge download) and gramsci's prison notebooks are an essential grounding - for a more detailed modern critical look you could try    
Jonathan Joseph, 'Hegemony: A Realist Analysis', Studies in Critical Realism, 2002 Routledge/London
Mark Rupert, ‘Producing Hegemony: The Politics of Mass Production and American Global Power.’ (1995)Cambridge University Press/Cambridge
 

Thankyou I'll check them when I can.
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #36 on: 12/08/2010 21:18:58 »
There really is no Blofelt character (stroking a cat) controlling the world. There are people who wield power, but generally they have got there because they wanted to and the rest of us let them. And their power is limited.

Power is always limited by something, I never suggested blofelt but anyway. I have to disagee there as when the elite took power from the kings of old and invented Democracy naturally amoung the families involved, one would stand up and take the majority of power, therefore althought the elite are surely families working together within that is one individual who holds the majority of it.


There is no fixed hegemony but rather a changing and mobile one and, though there is much inertia, it can and does change.

ofcourse there is no hegemony- those that rule do not want one. What can change? the hegemony that does not exist?

There is no conspiracy with men in smoke filled rooms (probably smoke free nowadays) plotting how the world shall develop.

Sorry the system itself did not just appear it has been designed and by people, these same people or rather thier desendents still today have the ability to change the system and modifiy it.

Sure, there are those who try and some have political and financial influence, but their goals are usually much more simple. Politicians have a bad name but, generally (if not always), they are well intentioned and their power is hugely constrained by the system in which they work.

Politicians have very little if any power today negative freedom has taken power from them, and given it to the market- hence business decides what politicians used to decide, politicians today can do little more than add laws. And even there business has a huge say, in this sense the politicians no longer represent the poeple but actually represent business' and those that own them-The elite.

Societies do take on some anthropomorphic characteristics, and this concept is often reinforced by the media's use of shorthand comments on political matters by referring to a country having a point of view rather than just some of its people. There are people who wield influence of course, and it cannot be denied that lobby groups play a role in changing policies, but they can have influence one week and lose it the next. Sometimes these ideas can take hold of governments.

What ideas? the ideas of lobby groups?

The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein is worth a read if you can stick at it as an example of how political ideas can influence how governments behave. The influence of the lobby groups, like "The American Enterprise Institute" had a profound impact of the Bush administration in the USA is another example. But generally these are temporary, allbeit if over many years, and are not a built-in feature of the way society has to develop.

Everything has some role to play- to a degree.

For better or worse much of what happens is rather out-of-control; the recent financial crisis being an example.

That is rediculas, they new the crisis was comming long before, how is it may I ask you that the fashion industry which takes years to prepare its clothes had all the lines ready to exploit the conservative trend that the crisis would cause- They knew before hand and prepared for it- its the elite and co that buy that stuff anyway.

Most things that go wrong (and some that go right) are cock-ups rather than conspiracies. This does not mean that the system dose not seem to behave in a controlled way, but that is how systems develop.

I will agree that not everything can be foreseen. However as with the crisis they knew it was comming and used it- to expel those they do not want upstairs, to increase holding so on so forth- banking also tried to exploit the tax payer.

While I've been typing this lot 4 people have posted so sorry if it appears irrelevent.

Its ok
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #37 on: 12/08/2010 21:23:19 »
I think it's all a load of old rowlocks.

There is no such thing as "neagative freedom". Freedom can only have a positive value. Seems to me these socialist scientist types need to crack the old math books a bit more.

A freedom to kill, surely would have a negative value.

I was wondering actually

Agent four: denial; There is no negative freedom.

Agent five: Anger; It all rubbish- shut up!

Agent six; barganing; Please stop posting about this havent we been through it all!

Agent seven: Exceptance; Look just except it, its the way it is!
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #38 on: 12/08/2010 21:33:29 »
A good question as if we are to live in a truly free society, then the people present should be able to know- that they are living in a truly free society.

So as a question to all of you, what would prove that you do live in a free society, where all the rights and freedoms you are told you have-you actually have?

I think there most will say, I need A B and C ohhh so clearly as it stands,I live in a hell hole!

I would suggest first: Knowing who is in control.

Secound: very few lies present within the system itself.

Third: seeing your rights and freedoms actively respected by those that rule.

Fourth: actually being able to use all freedoms stated in conjunction with three.

as a starter,under that-what world do we live in?
 

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #39 on: 12/08/2010 22:18:28 »
I think it's all a load of old rowlocks.

There is no such thing as "neagative freedom". Freedom can only have a positive value. Seems to me these socialist scientist types need to crack the old math books a bit more.

A freedom to kill, surely would have a negative value.


Freedom ranges from total freedom (totally unconstrained) to almost no freedom.

How can it be negative?
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #40 on: 12/08/2010 22:22:56 »
Quote
I'm just here to say bo---locks to that!
  

Well, thanks for that.

Say that alot I assume.

Only when utterly bored of a conversation.
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #41 on: 12/08/2010 22:25:11 »
I think it's all a load of old rowlocks.

There is no such thing as "neagative freedom". Freedom can only have a positive value. Seems to me these socialist scientist types need to crack the old math books a bit more.

A freedom to kill, surely would have a negative value.

I was wondering actually

Agent four: denial; There is no negative freedom.

Agent five: Anger; It all rubbish- shut up!

Agent six; barganing; Please stop posting about this havent we been through it all!

Agent seven: Exceptance; Look just except it, its the way it is!

Anarchist:1 Hey I have read this stuff and made a strawman argument against 'The System'. I am going to post it up all over the internet and when people challenge my view I will resort to more tripe to try and cover up my inadequate statements.
 

Offline Make it Lady

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4050
  • Hands-on fun for everyone!
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #42 on: 12/08/2010 22:34:13 »
Ok here I go!!!!
If you put reality TV on and don't vote and remain ignorant of your rights and that you have a voice, then you have negative freedom. The present Government in Britain loves us to do all this but it is up to us to educate our children and make sure they have a voice.
 

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #43 on: 13/08/2010 02:41:29 »
Ok here I go!!!!
If you put reality TV on and don't vote and remain ignorant of your rights and that you have a voice, then you have negative freedom. The present Government in Britain loves us to do all this but it is up to us to educate our children and make sure they have a voice.

Well, no. If you had no freedom, you would not be allowed to watch Reality TV, and you'd be forced to vote for the Supreme Leader.

I still don't how you can have less than no freedom. Was "negative freedom" something dreamed up by a politician or some brown-necker twit in marketing?
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #44 on: 13/08/2010 09:15:21 »
I think it's all a load of old rowlocks.

There is no such thing as "neagative freedom". Freedom can only have a positive value. Seems to me these socialist scientist types need to crack the old math books a bit more.

A freedom to kill, surely would have a negative value.


Freedom ranges from total freedom (totally unconstrained) to almost no freedom.

How can it be negative?

I was relating it to your statement, under berlin a freedom to kill is a positive freedom. I said neagtive value interms of it being bad and so negative. under that positive freedom are good freedoms used for the benefit of others and society and negative freedoms the reverse.
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #45 on: 13/08/2010 09:16:31 »
Quote
I'm just here to say bo---locks to that!
  

Well, thanks for that.

Say that alot I assume.

Only when utterly bored of a conversation.

Cute- tired of trying to convince someone its ok to do such and such...
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #46 on: 13/08/2010 09:17:26 »
I think it's all a load of old rowlocks.

There is no such thing as "neagative freedom". Freedom can only have a positive value. Seems to me these socialist scientist types need to crack the old math books a bit more.

A freedom to kill, surely would have a negative value.

I was wondering actually

Agent four: denial; There is no negative freedom.

Agent five: Anger; It all rubbish- shut up!

Agent six; barganing; Please stop posting about this havent we been through it all!

Agent seven: Exceptance; Look just except it, its the way it is!

Anarchist:1 Hey I have read this stuff and made a strawman argument against 'The System'. I am going to post it up all over the internet and when people challenge my view I will resort to more tripe to try and cover up my inadequate statements.

Are you going to cry?
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #47 on: 13/08/2010 09:18:51 »
Ok here I go!!!!
If you put reality TV on and don't vote and remain ignorant of your rights and that you have a voice, then you have negative freedom. The present Government in Britain loves us to do all this but it is up to us to educate our children and make sure they have a voice.

A voice to vote for someone that has no power and can do nothing! there's democracy! Woww I feel just fine with that situation.
 

Offline Jolly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #48 on: 13/08/2010 09:21:37 »
Will say here actually that its the agents that hold a lot of blame!

WHY? because if this world had men in it, then when the pig said "go screw this person" the man would reply NO! Probably No pig!

As always the lack of men, and the sad existence of spineless little cowards ruins it for everyone....
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #49 on: 13/08/2010 09:35:50 »
Quote
I'm just here to say bo---locks to that!
  


Well, thanks for that.

Say that alot I assume.

Only when utterly bored of a conversation.

Cute- tired of trying to convince someone its ok to do such and such...

You see yourself as some revolutionary soul fighting against the apathy and control from which you seem to think we all suffer. These theories you keep spouting have been around for years and years, and you have no concept of how deep they run. All you are concerned about is your own personal projection, and how you want others to see you, anything that goes against that is treated with derision and negativity from you. Not bad from someone who is trying to 'free people' is it?
Lets not kid ourselves this is about you and your seemingly desperate need to create a set projection of yourself. And when it fails you readjust your stance to fit this. Ever heard of Festinger? I doubt it. (quick quick, Wiki it now and read up so you can argue you know all about it!!)
You simply have no idea what you are talking about, my guess is you found an article somewhere have taken it as your security blanket and now keep spouting from it, it kinds falls apart when you are met with people who have read more than a pamphlet equivalent of social theory. You are embarrassing to yourself, especially with those last few posts.
I am not know for my tolerance of idiots, especially those who cannot form cohesive arguments. I for one will not respond directly to you again, I have better things to do with my time... like watch paint dry...
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Negative freedom how does it work?
« Reply #49 on: 13/08/2010 09:35:50 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums