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Author Topic: negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....  (Read 6892 times)

Offline Jolly

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Fine very well I do ofcourse have an issue with the idea that calling the people incharge pigs is a justification for having the thread locked, George Orwell did the same!

Anyway....


 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #1 on: 13/08/2010 11:39:33 »
Quote
I think it's all a load of old rowlocks.

There is no such thing as "neagative freedom". Freedom can only have a positive value. Seems to me these socialist scientist types need to crack the old math books a bit more.

Quote
A freedom to kill, surely would have a negative value.

Quote
Freedom ranges from total freedom (totally unconstrained) to almost no freedom.

How can it be negative?

Quote
I was relating it to your statement, under berlin a freedom to kill is a positive freedom. I said neagtive value interms of it being bad and so negative. under that positive freedom are good freedoms used for the benefit of others and society and negative freedoms the reverse.

As an add on to this Berlin as stated would put, the freedom to kill in the positive freedom box, and the freedom not to kill in the negative freedom. The negative freedom box, under that- is quite small in terms of negative freedom where you have the freedom not to act. So by Making postive freedoms ones which could cause a revolution, the negative freedom box gets bigger, as it from then starts to include all freedoms which do not cause or could not cause a revolution.
 

Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #2 on: 13/08/2010 13:12:33 »
Fine very well I do ofcourse have an issue with the idea that calling the people incharge pigs is a justification for having the thread locked, George Orwell did the same!
I was under the impression that Orwell chose pigs as the animal villains because they are considered the smartest of farmyard animals.  Obviously, Pigs is slang for police in some places, which may have influenced him (or is it visa versa?).
I didn't see the post that got your thread locked, but it wouldn't seem too bright to call the moderators (on any site) derogatory names [Except JimBob. I've heard he's exempt!  [:0]]
« Last Edit: 13/08/2010 15:35:01 by peppercorn »
 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #3 on: 13/08/2010 13:30:55 »
Fine very well I do ofcourse have an issue with the idea that calling the people incharge pigs is a justification for having the thread locked, George Orwell did the same!
I was under the impression that Orwell chose pigs as the animal villains because they are considered the smartest of farmyard animals.  Obviously, Pigs is slang for police in some places, which may have influenced him (or is it visa versa?).
I didn't see the post that got your thread locked, but it wouldn't seem too bright to call the moderators (on any site) derogatory names [Except JimBob. I've heard he's except!  [:0]]

Nothing to do with the mods, The thread was effectively locked for insulting the glourious leaders of the first world. "Pig to man man to pig" animal farm ending, the man are the leaders of the capitalist first world.
 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #4 on: 13/08/2010 13:31:29 »
Any way are you ready here it is!!!!!!
 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #5 on: 13/08/2010 13:49:27 »
Negative freedom and positive freedom.

A positive freedom is a freedom to do something.

a negative freedom is it's opposite, the freedom not to do something.

Positive freedom a freedom to think, to jump, to skip.

Negative freedom a freedom not to think, to jump, to skip.

Positives and negatives of freedom.

So in a true negative free society, you are free only to express your freedom to not do anything, in a true negatively free society, you are free only to not think, and if you do not think then you do not act.

Right so choice is negative free society or positive free society, A negatively free society being pointless and a positive free society being anarchistic.

So Berlin here looks at problems relating to a completely free society, and decides that the greatest problem is revolution, as it leads to mass death and destruction. yet he fails to see that revolution can also be velvet, nonviolent and peaceful.

So here we are we have our list of positive and negative freedoms, with a new concern to prevent revolution.

So we divide all freedoms into could cause a revolution and could not cause a revolution.

Negative freedoms are all kept, and the positive freedoms that could not cause a revolution are add to them, which then becomes Neo-Negative freedom. all the positive freedoms with maybe a few negative freedoms(if these negative freedoms were to act in not preventing a revolution) becomes Neo-positive freedom.

The majority of freedom rest in the neo-negative freedom side.

Which is why we live in a neo-negative freedom society. as in a true negative freedom society we would only be allowed to not think and so not act.

its the fact that all actions, all freedoms both positive and negative, stem from thoughts that brings Berlin to attack thought.

From this we then look at which thoughts could cause a person to become a revolutionary or inspire others to become revolutionary, these thoughts are prohibited, under neo-negative freedom. And as you cannot prevent thoughts and people thinking, you have to monitor them and should they show sign that they are thinking things they are not allowed to take step to stop them- which in the extreme call for drugging.

The people in a ne-negative freedom society of course cannot know this reality as to inform them, allows them the ability to pretend they are not thinking- Neo-postive freedom thoughts; Which could cause a revolution; So they cannot know!

And there it is!

Important to understand here that Berlin is wrong

One: It is not thinking that causes revolution.

Two: As it is not thinking that causes revolution, they will occur anyway, leaving the whole system not fit for purpose, one, and two allowing the true causes of revolution to slowly gather till bursting point- Ergo massive break down.

Three: The elite clearly use this and except it as it allows them to stay on top, they effectively trade off massive melt down for a belief that they will rule forever.

Four: As know one is allowed to know that they live in a neo-negative freedom society the rulers over the top, effectively act as they want to with everyone else completely ignorant to what they actually do!

Here the rulers are given a totally free hand to behave as they choose to, completely outside the rule of law. As the system works to protect their position should anyone criticise them, they can simply be called Insane and dragged of to a mental home- "We never murdered half the people, you are crazy" With this you can see clearly how bad the system can become, for the elite here act with no real restriction's on behaviour, any critic simply derided as insanity- "WE WOULD NEVER DO THAT, YOU ARE MAD!"

ladies and gentalmen I give you the world in which you live neo-negative free society, where the elite act as they dam well please- "WHAT YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT, CRAZY BOY!"
« Last Edit: 13/08/2010 14:03:38 by Littlestone »
 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #6 on: 13/08/2010 15:52:55 »
Understand what this means, for as the elite control what ideas are ok and which ones are not, and as any dissent against their rule is effectively revolutionary.

You could watch a member of the elite Shoot someone in front of you. If you then told people you would be expressing a neo positive idea, even though true an idea that is not allowed, as such you would be drugged, the elite simply denies it and you are called crazy, and will go crazy under the influence of the drugs.

And there you can begin to see what they(the elite) effectively can do under a neo negative freedom system, and can get away with!
We didn't plant a bomb- your crazy. we didn't start a terrorist group- your crazy! we don't drug people- your crazy! The sky is the limit in terms of horror. we didn't experiment on the people we held at guantanamo-your crazy!

They can do anything, with complete immunity!
« Last Edit: 13/08/2010 15:58:44 by Littlestone »
 

Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #7 on: 13/08/2010 16:23:14 »
They can do anything, with complete immunity!

Then I'd stop sticking your head above the parapet, if I were you!

I think you're talking about
Conspiracy_theory
not
negative liberty (or negative freedom)
 

Offline graham.d

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #8 on: 13/08/2010 16:32:35 »
So who are this elite group? Give some examples or do you suppose they exist but have no actual evidence?
 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #9 on: 13/08/2010 17:03:52 »
They can do anything, with complete immunity!

Then I'd stop sticking your head above the parapet, if I were you!

I think you're talking about
Conspiracy_theory
not
negative liberty (or negative freedom)

thats a threat, threats do not scare me little boy and I think you have just acted against the rules of the fourm!
 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #10 on: 13/08/2010 17:10:27 »
Agents involved in the druging of citizens, I today call on all of you to quit, and refuse to carry out your services any longer.

Understand it is by you, that they maintian this system, therefore by you we can break it, I ask you all to stand for freedom; not just for yourselves, but for your children and everyone elses children that should not be allowed to grow up in this nightmare.

I make no quarm about the fact that as far as I am concerned those responsible at the top should all go to prison for life! Every suscide, family and individuals life destroyed. Life inprisionment would not be justice, but it would be something.

You too deserve to be punished, yet if you stood against the system, you could finish this and thereby repay some of your debt to society and all those effected.

They need you today more than ever, and they will punish you for quiting, yet surely freedom for all of us is worth it- and should be worth something!

It is in your hands, I call on you to stand! The more of you who do, the smallier the risk for each of you!

I'm prepared to die for freedom, and be tortured, already have been anyway and I am still! Freedom is not for cowards, I ask you to stand and quit! 
« Last Edit: 13/08/2010 17:13:46 by Littlestone »
 

Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #11 on: 13/08/2010 17:17:23 »
They can do anything, with complete immunity!
Then I'd stop sticking your head above the parapet, if I were you!
thats a threat, threats do not scare me little boy and I think you have just acted against the rules of the fourm!

Oh, dear....  I think you're paranoia has got the better of you, laddie!

I was *actually* just trying to point out the absurdity of what you were saying - ie. if "they can do anything, with complete immunity" - then there is nowhere for you (or anyone) to run, yes?
 

Offline JimBob

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« Reply #12 on: 13/08/2010 17:39:26 »
I would suggest that in order to allow you to be less silly-looking in your sweeping generalizations that you please back up any statements with concrete examples, especially of mass drugging of society.  Just ranting "against the man" is not a valid argument for anything.

Please provide concrete evidence of your assertions.
 

 

Offline RD

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« Reply #13 on: 13/08/2010 17:50:41 »
Porcine ?, surely you mean reptilian ...

Quote
At the heart of his theories lies the idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

[NB: that's wikipedia not uncyclopedia ]
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #14 on: 13/08/2010 18:05:38 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
[NB: that's wikipedia not uncyclopedia ]

With david icke it's hard to know the difference!
 

Offline Variola

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #15 on: 13/08/2010 18:12:08 »
They can do anything, with complete immunity!

Then I'd stop sticking your head above the parapet, if I were you!

I think you're talking about
Conspiracy_theory
not
negative liberty (or negative freedom)

The unfortunate result of people like LS, is that far from people being interested in what is going on behind the scenes, they are turned off by rantings.
I would not call myself a card-carrying conspiracy theorist, but I do find most of them fascinating. With regard to New World Order, which is what LS is basing his/her rants on, I do consider much of it to be fairly factual, and when you cut away the fanciful rubbish, there is more than a grain of truth in it.
Icke is a good example of this too, he is a resolute researcher with a great knack for uncovering the hidden networks, but all the fanciful fantasy rubbish that goes with it dissuades people from reading.

 

Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #16 on: 13/08/2010 19:32:42 »
David Icke - I just remember him as the guy who proclaimed he was the son of God on national television  :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
"He was allowed to enter Canada in 1999 only after persuading immigration officials that when he said lizards, he meant lizards, but his books were still removed from the shelves of Indigo Books"   :P
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #17 on: 13/08/2010 20:06:44 »
OK.  I am going to try and be reasoned and reasonable...

1.  Littlestone - you're ranting and raving.  calm down, stop casting aspersions, and I, at least, would prefer it if you were more measured in your replies.  your ideas are not without merit; Variola and I have both tried to be open to this discussion and yet your response has been derision and scorn.  If you do really care about this topic, you will serve your end better by cool debate rather than barely coherent polemic.  Notwithstanding the preceding paragraph I would be happy to continue this discussion as I believe it has areas of truth and you express it with gusto.

2.  Jimbob - to defend the concept slightly I would have to point out that hard concrete evidence in an arena constrained by subjectivity is difficult to obtain.  Even more so in a particular subject area like this one; if objective evidence was available (or perhaps more pertinently accepted by protagonists) then a conspiracy theory would no longer be a conspiracy theory.  To an extent, as much as can be done is to provide a set of ideas that are logically coherent and do not raise more objections than they settle.  Suffice it to say at present that states have existed that exercised control over the populace through mental health medication, physical repression and ideology to a lesser and greater extent. 

In general; discussion upon these ideas are fraught and the participants must take care not to alienate and antagonise.  It is quite possible that every proposition will challenge much that the other members of the debate hold dear - this is the case with much of the critical studies realm.  critical theory involves challenging that which is held as axiomatic - sometimes this is very enlightening, other times it is total bollox.  unfortunately objective division of the elucidating from the balls is nigh impossible.

I hope the great scientific intellects of this forum (and I mean that most sincerely ladies and gentlemen) will cut
the odd social scientist a little slack on this matter - there is just no point asking for the scientific method in this form of theory; but please do not think this means that academically the subject is shorn of rigour.

Ok - that's off my chest.  Pub-bound soon

Matthew
 

Offline Jolly

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« Reply #18 on: 14/08/2010 11:02:08 »
OK.  I am going to try and be reasoned and reasonable...

1.  Littlestone - you're ranting and raving.  calm down, stop casting aspersions, and I, at least, would prefer it if you were more measured in your replies.  your ideas are not without merit; Variola and I have both tried to be open to this discussion and yet your response has been derision and scorn.  If you do really care about this topic, you will serve your end better by cool debate rather than barely coherent polemic.  Notwithstanding the preceding paragraph I would be happy to continue this discussion as I believe it has areas of truth and you express it with gusto.

2.  Jimbob - to defend the concept slightly I would have to point out that hard concrete evidence in an arena constrained by subjectivity is difficult to obtain.  Even more so in a particular subject area like this one; if objective evidence was available (or perhaps more pertinently accepted by protagonists) then a conspiracy theory would no longer be a conspiracy theory.  To an extent, as much as can be done is to provide a set of ideas that are logically coherent and do not raise more objections than they settle.  Suffice it to say at present that states have existed that exercised control over the populace through mental health medication, physical repression and ideology to a lesser and greater extent. 

In general; discussion upon these ideas are fraught and the participants must take care not to alienate and antagonise.  It is quite possible that every proposition will challenge much that the other members of the debate hold dear - this is the case with much of the critical studies realm.  critical theory involves challenging that which is held as axiomatic - sometimes this is very enlightening, other times it is total bollox.  unfortunately objective division of the elucidating from the balls is nigh impossible.

I hope the great scientific intellects of this forum (and I mean that most sincerely ladies and gentlemen) will cut
the odd social scientist a little slack on this matter - there is just no point asking for the scientific method in this form of theory; but please do not think this means that academically the subject is shorn of rigour.

Ok - that's off my chest.  Pub-bound soon

Matthew

Reasonalble is good matthew. I however am hardly ranting and raving- thankyou for informing others, of how they should think of me: agent one.

I will reply properly after my next post.
 

Offline Jolly

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #19 on: 14/08/2010 11:18:50 »
Here is an idea you are not allowed to think, under neo-negative freedom.

"Coporations should not be allowed to exist"

As you are now aware that you should not think that the people who run and control the system are left with two choices:

Choice one: say it is not true and carry on drugging people that think it.

or

Choice two: Move the idea from positive to neo-negative freedom. if they do that however the people that hold that idea will increase in number, making the likely hood that this group could succeed, and so remove corporations an ever increasing possibility- therefore they will choose option one.

I will now point out to you that as a person who hold a neo-positive idea, you are considered to be ill-by those that run the system, your illness, I will call this illness "People who are potentially a threat to the Nazis that rule disease"

As such and having this illness, you will need treatment, as you carry a contagen, a thought virus.

So should any of you actually agree with the statement above, and tell others, you will be treated so....

step 1 as a sick person you will be isolated- so your sickness cannot spread, this means you will loose all your friends and then be provided with new friends who I shall call nurses!

Step 2 Your nurse shall try to help you realise that the idea you hold is silly, and should be rejected.

3. Should you after a continued process of continued conversation, refuse to reject your idea(illness), you will be treated as so:

Drug and driven either into depression, paranoia, given a nervous breakdown and so on. Some of you during this process will commit suicide, others of you will take the meds and walk as drooling zombies. others among you will refuse the meds and suicide, at which point..... We move to step four.

Step four: You will be heavily and severely drugged and driven into a mental home, and there, forced to take the meds- to cure you from "people that could potentially work to remove the Nazis that rule disease"

Some of you again here will commit suicide others will except the meds and walk as zombies, if this doesn't "Cure" you, they do sadly get even nastier....

Ultimately should you hold a neo positive idea those that rule want you gone. Simply for thinking really, and for standing in their way potentially, they are the enlightened few do not forget it's their world and they own it and all of you with it.

 Which CEO should we thank first?
« Last Edit: 14/08/2010 11:27:23 by Littlestone »
 

Offline Variola

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negative freedom continued with no talk about pigs.....
« Reply #20 on: 14/08/2010 11:20:35 »
Quote
Reasonalble is good matthew. I however am hardly ranting and raving- thankyou for informing others, of how they should think of me: agent one.
  

He doesn't have to inform anyone, we can all see what you are like! Imatfaal gave you the chance you blew it. You are an embarrassment yo yourself.

In fact I think this is deliberate, I think you are actually working for the elite. What better way to put people off from seeking the truth than by acting like a moron and ranting and raving? Why else would you suddenly join a forum, try and appear to be promoting freedom from oppression but do it in such a way that no one will take you seriously.
You are a misinformer Littlestone.
 

Offline Jolly

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« Reply #21 on: 14/08/2010 11:26:34 »
Quote
Reasonalble is good matthew. I however am hardly ranting and raving- thankyou for informing others, of how they should think of me: agent one.
  

He doesn't have to inform anyone, we can all see what you are like! Imatfaal gave you the chance you blew it. You are an embarrassment yo yourself.

In fact I think this is deliberate, I think you are actually working for the elite. What better way to put people off from seeking the truth than by acting like a moron and ranting and raving? Why else would you suddenly join a forum, try and appear to be promoting freedom from oppression but do it in such a way that no one will take you seriously.
You are a misinformer Littlestone.

Thankyou agent three. Clearly you can all see what I am like from other side of the net. Please grow up.
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #22 on: 14/08/2010 11:47:06 »
Quote
  Thankyou agent three. Clearly you can all see what I am like from other side of the net. Please grow up.
 

Yes we can, you leave us in no doubt as to what type of person you are.


You are a misinfomer LS here to dissuade people from learning the truth. I urge everyone to ignore your rantings.
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #23 on: 14/08/2010 11:53:00 »
Quote
Step four: You will be heavily and severely drugged and driven into a mental home, and there, forced to take the meds- to cure you from "people that could potentially work to remove the Nazis that rule disease"
     

For some reason the name Godwin pops up in my head....  ::)
 

Offline Jolly

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« Reply #24 on: 14/08/2010 16:36:16 »
They can do anything, with complete immunity!
Then I'd stop sticking your head above the parapet, if I were you!
thats a threat, threats do not scare me little boy and I think you have just acted against the rules of the fourm!

Oh, dear....  I think you're paranoia has got the better of you, laddie!

I was *actually* just trying to point out the absurdity of what you were saying - ie. if "they can do anything, with complete immunity" - then there is nowhere for you (or anyone) to run, yes?

Nice try, to get out of it- that was a threat and the last resort of a loser.

and yes true it is, that the wealthy with their wealth can pay anyone anywhere- to do their dirty work.
 

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