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Offline ukmicky

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quick poll on smacking
« on: 23/01/2006 00:03:05 »
They want the UK to step in line with other European countries and are trying to completely ban us from smacking our children, their trying to tell us how to bring up our children now.

I understand that some parents go to far, however their is nothing wrong with a smack, i was smacked when i was a kid and it taught me right from wrong as it did my kids.
If the slipper or cane was brought back into our schools then maybe their wouldn't be so many unruly yobs out on our streets. Even in nature animals teach undisciplined youngsters this way , OK we maybe better than a gorilla or lion but who are we to say that nature doesn't know best. I say bring back corporal punishment in our schools and stop telling us how to discipline our children.
what do you say a simple yes or no will suffice

Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 23/01/2006 00:04:49 by ukmicky »


 

Offline chris

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #1 on: 23/01/2006 08:43:03 »
You're right.

It's pathetic. Since parents can be taken to court for smacking their children, does this mean that the converse is also true ?

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen horrible children behaving like complete brats and their mother saying "don't do that dear".

It's just Tony Blair and his cronies trying to find another way to control our lives. But are you seriously telling me that it will be enforceable ? Are all homes going to be rigged with CCTV so that the nanny state can tell when you are disciplining your kids ?

This won't do a thing to affect the real problem of child abuse. It will just turn good parents into criminals in exactly the same way that the proliferation of speed cameras has turned a whole generation of life-long safe drivers into law-breakers because it lacks any discretion. It's bollocks, just like the fox-hunting ban which cost a fortune in time and paperwork but has achieved nothing positive.

Chris

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another_someone

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #2 on: 23/01/2006 13:49:09 »
Smacking is a form of physical communication, just as kissing is.  It can become damaging if taken too far, but there are many ways of harming a child other than that.  One can send a child to bed without having their supper, and that is not being considered to be outlawed, but equally starving a child to the point of causing physical harm is without a doubt illegal.

The bigger problem with banning smacking (apart from being part of a trend where all physical communication is discouraged, whether it be from fear of being accused of simple assault, as in the case of smacking, or through fear of accusation of sexual assault, as in the case of a kindly kiss or reassuring cuddle) is that it undermines the confidence that parent and child have in their mutual relationship.  By this, I don't mean that if a parent does not smack a child, then the parent and child will have bad relationship; what I mean is that if the parent is constantly and fearfully looking over their shoulder lest the State charge them with a crime against their child, it will both undermine the spontaneity of the relationship between child and parent, and undermine the confidence the child has that the parent is able to protect them against the perils of the outside world.

There are arguments for and against smacking, and I have nothing against educating potential parents in how they might use alternatives to smacking where it is appropriate, but I think it highly damaging to family life to further instil fear into parents with regard to their relationship with their children.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #3 on: 23/01/2006 16:08:46 »
Ever watched super nanny? she is amazing with kids of all age groups, bringing them under control in a few hours after years of mayhem. Can't remember her ever beating the crap out of any of the kids though. Not even a slight tap on the hand from her was observed as all the kids fall into line. And I have observed parents that have watched this programme putting into practice what she clearly demonstrated works, with their own children.

Smacking children is not going to do anything other than breed a new generation of children smackers and wife beaters!

We could always send the kids off to join the army and learn them how to slit throats, bomb civilians and bayonet strangers I suppose, but much prefer to see children growing up to be peace loving, thinking adults.

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Offline chris

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #4 on: 23/01/2006 18:38:43 »
I think you'll agree that there's some pretty hefty editing that goes on in editions of "Super Nanny". It's also a highly artificial situation. Children behave very differently in the presence of strangers and often much better than normal. They certainly view strangers as more authoritative than better-known individuals.

They show no more than a snap-shot on Super Nanny with no long term follow up. I don't think this is necessarily a good evidence base upon which to make an argument.

Aside from whether it's right or wrong to smack children I don't think this is a decision that Tony Blair should be taking for me. I think it should be up to parents. Tony's role should be to ensure that parents are better educated in child rearing. Admittedly this is difficult when they are only 14 themselves...

Chris

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another_someone

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #5 on: 23/01/2006 19:30:57 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher

Ever watched super nanny? she is amazing with kids of all age groups, bringing them under control in a few hours after years of mayhem. Can't remember her ever beating the crap out of any of the kids though. Not even a slight tap on the hand from her was observed as all the kids fall into line. And I have observed parents that have watched this programme putting into practice what she clearly demonstrated works, with their own children.




I can't say I have ever watched the program, possibly a matter not unlinked to the fact that I don't own a television.

Nonetheless, I think it perfectly reasonable to draw some caution in extrapolating from television programs of any sort.  TV programs are for entertainment, and while they may incidentally also inform and educate, but the cannot be said to operate with scientific rigour.  In particular, the fact that you say you cannot remember seeing something on the program in no way means it did not happen (although it may well mean that the event was edited out before being broadcast).

I am not saying that it is impossible that no smacking occurred (in particular, there may well have been legal consequences if a registered nanny were caught slapping a child), all I am saying is that I would not regard the fact that a heavily edited TV program did not broadcast something to be proof of itself that the thing did not occur.

quote:


Smacking children is not going to do anything other than breed a new generation of children smackers and wife beaters!




In generality, that a child who is smacked is more likely to smack their own children when they grow up, is fair comment (it does not necessarily follow that such a child will be a wife beater).

I do think it is possible to bring up children without smacking them, or at most maybe to smack them once or twice in their entire life.  The problem with smacking happens when it is arbitrary in nature (as is the case with any punishment), or when it is overused (and thus it becomes commonplace and everyday, and loses its impact).

The reality is that with all this obsession with the effect of smacking on children, there are ways of doing far more harm to children through emotional neglect that are far more dangerous to a child's well being than a few smacks.  I do feel we sometimes become obsessed with the superficial, and ignore the subtler, but more harmful, threats.
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #6 on: 24/01/2006 04:18:43 »
quote:
Ever watched super nanny? she is amazing with kids of all age groups, bringing them under control in a few hours after years of mayhem. Can't remember her ever beating the crap out of any of the kids though. Not even a slight tap on the hand from her was observed as all the kids fall into line. And I have observed parents that have watched this programme putting into practice what she clearly demonstrated works, with their own children.




There are a few problems with using the super nanny argument against smacking. Firstly as stated previously by other members, we have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. And secondly and more importantly 99.9999 per cent of the population have no training and understanding of Child Psychology.

Where was super nanny when you or I was at school, when smacking and corporal punishment wasn't considered as assault? Well answer is, she hadn't even been thought of because there was very little need for her services.

So in my mind Smacking by parents and corporal punishment in schools obviously works as Domestic Violence, Abuse, assaults etc have risen since the do-gooders jumped on the children's rights bandwagon and lobby-ed for laws banning it

As my wife says children these days have too many rights.

Last year my wife was deliberately and accidentally assaulted on more than twenty occasions whilst protecting pupils who were being attacked by other students and on 3 occasions was  hurt bad enough that she had to take time off sick.
The education authority advises teachers and school workers not to physically intervene in any fights between pupils and should attempt to stop the fight through shouting or talking to the pupils involved. As my wife says it’s laughable, how can you stand by when a 6 year old child is being beaten senseless by a 10 year old who will without any provocation or hesitation  punch, kick, head butt, or even stab with pencils other pupils.
The reason their not supposed to physically intervene is because the law protects the child who is doing the assaulting and by physically restraining the out of control child the school and my wife can be sued for assault.
When I went to school children sat quietly in class and almost never answered the teacher back, assaults on teachers and assaults on people outside school by children was unheard of , and  the reason was because they had the threat of the slipper or the cane hanging over them if they dared. It taught them right from wrong inside and outside school and this country was a much better place for it.


Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
 

another_someone

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #7 on: 24/01/2006 13:10:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

As my wife says children these days have too many rights.

Last year my wife was deliberately and accidentally assaulted on more than twenty occasions whilst protecting pupils who were being attacked by other students and on 3 occasions was  hurt bad enough that she had to take time off sick.
The education authority advises teachers and school workers not to physically intervene in any fights between pupils and should attempt to stop the fight through shouting or talking to the pupils involved. As my wife says it’s laughable, how can you stand by when a 6 year old child is being beaten senseless by a 10 year old who will without any provocation or hesitation  punch, kick, head butt, or even stab with pencils other pupils.
The reason their not supposed to physically intervene is because the law protects the child who is doing the assaulting and by physically restraining the out of control child the school and my wife can be sued for assault.
When I went to school children sat quietly in class and almost never answered the teacher back, assaults on teachers and assaults on people outside school by children was unheard of , and  the reason was because they had the threat of the slipper or the cane hanging over them if they dared. It taught them right from wrong inside and outside school and this country was a much better place for it.




You are confusing two different issues.

I had the slipper twice when in primary school – and all it taught me was the futility of physical punishment alone.

Where I do agree with you, and this was the point I was making above, was that the harm done by corporal punishment is insignificant to the harm done by causing adults to fear any intervention lest they be charged with assault.  I think that methods other than corporal punishment should be promoted in preference to corporal punishment, but I also think that teachers and parents should not be in constant fear of prosecution, and hence become fearful of any action whatsoever.

If parents or teachers, in trying to do their best, happen to act in an honest but imperfect manner, then so be it, but at least they they have the confidence to act at all, rather than stand back and do nothing out of fear of the consequences lest their actions be seen as less than perfect.
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #8 on: 24/01/2006 20:26:11 »
Yes I don't think teachers or parents should use corpral punishment, however I don't think it should be banned as it it useful to have in the back of a kid's mind that it is a vague possibility, as there is then a very subconcious limit on how far they can push things... Also most things are worse in myth than in actuality, so if some kid got caned 5 years ago, the stories going around a school will make it far worse that it could ever legally have been. If it is actually used you have probably lost the battle with the kids.
 

Offline rosy

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #9 on: 24/01/2006 20:59:27 »
My feeling would be that smacking is only really appropriate in situations such as a small child being a risk to itself or others (behaving in an overexcited, stupid way near a road is my usual example)... situations where there is no time for reasoned argument, or no opportunity for removing the child and telling it why that is not-how-we-behave.
The idea of "corporal punishment", and especially the wait-till-your-dad-gets-home mentailty scares me to death. Children need (or at least, as a kid I needed) to be told where they get off *as soon as* they start to behave badly so it doesn't reach that point.
Smacking older kids (older than about 5 or 6, I think) is just daft and counter productive. By the time I was that age, my parents were telling me why I wasn't to do this, that or the other thing and (usually) removing the means/taking me home/whatever. At 11 (ish), I was aghast to learn that my best friend's mum still smacked her. As I said at the time, if my mum had smacked me, I'd have smacked her back. Not because I was a bad, violent kid, but by that stage I'd have regarded it as an assult, not in the legal sense that I'd have tried to prosecute her, but in the sense that it would have been an incomprehensible afront to my dignity *and hers* and would have utterly trashed our relationship.
The younger sister of the same friend, I recall, used a little later to keep a childline card in her pocket to threaten her mother with if crossed over things like being allowed to go rollerskating. The mum was in no sense abusive (and the girls were spoilt rotten, especially the little ones) but I wouldn't have said her relationship with her kids was as good as that between my mum and hers.
On the other hand, that might all be a chicken-and-egg thing.
 

Offline Solvay_1927

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #10 on: 25/01/2006 02:07:46 »
Nobody on here (with the exception of AKF?) seems to back the government's proposal.  And nobody I know (among friends, colleagues and relations) seems to back it.  So what I'm really confused about is WHY do the govt. come up with these stupid proposals and WHO are the people that are actually supporting them???

As people have said above, a total smacking ban will lead to problems in parent-child relations, will send out the wrong message to kids, will NOT lead to less violent crime or less child abuse, will NOT address the much bigger problem of other forms of (psychological) harm done to kids by bad parents ...

It's just barmy.

I agree smacking is ineffective and counter-productive with older kids (once they're capable of more complex reasoning). And it's definitely something that should only be used very rarely (it becomes counter-productive if it's something the child comes to "expect"). And it certainly shouldn't be used to inflict any real physical harm (the current law bans smacking that leads to bruising, which seems right to me).  But a total ban is just idiotic.

As for schools, I really sympathise with your wife, Michael.  The world has definitely changed (for the worse) since I went to school.  I and/or my wife know a few people who've been teachers or classroom assistants for a couple of decades, and they say that they can see a major deterioration over that time.  These days even primary school kids (even in "good" schools in "good" areas) are cheeky, defiant, unruly, etc.  I can't imagine anyone in my primary school class ever "answering back" to the teacher. (Or if they ever did, they certainly never did it a second time!)

But I don't think that's down to something as simple as the removal of corporal punishment.  There are more complex changes going on in society.  Kids all "know their rights" these days and have been taught (by the media or bad parents or ill-informed celebrities or misguided sociologists or greedy politicians or whoever) to DEMAND their rights.  But it's not fashionable to talk about the flip side of the coin - with rights come RESPONSIBILITIES.  Many kids these days just don't seem to grasp the concept that you need to EARN your rights - you're not automatically entitled to everything, you have to earn it by accepting the responsibilities that go with it.

Maybe the biggest problem is simply that kids now think (have been taught?) that they have the same rights as adults.  I was brought up to realise that there's a difference between kids and adults - adults take on more responsibility so they're entitled to more rights.

But maybe that's the other problem - kids don't see adults these days as taking responsibility or as having to earn their place in the world. What with the sheer number of benefit fraudsters, the company directors who get paid millions for ruining a company, the talentless celebrities who get famous for nothing more than, say, sleeping with David Beckham ... is it any wonder that kids today think that they can have anything they want without having to work for it and without fear of punishment?


Oh dear, it's late - I should never have started - I could rant on this subject all night ...
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #11 on: 25/01/2006 03:05:37 »
Hi Paul, being honest i can't say i disagree with that.
You are correct the problems with today's society is complex and can't be attributed to one single reason.
I Feel there are many issues on a very long list maybe starting with the removal of corporal punishment from our schools and at the moment ending with the PC brigade and the recent influx of immigrants from around the world with their different culture's and value's .(i'm not taking a swipe at immigrants.)

I do however really fear for the future of my children and this country because at the moment i can only see the problems getting worse.  Blair seems to think that bringing in new laws and placing more restrictions on our lives will solve the problems when its only making matters worse.
The mans an idiot and the sooner he is replaced the better off we will ALL be

Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 25/01/2006 03:33:02 by ukmicky »
 

Offline simeonie

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #12 on: 25/01/2006 17:00:07 »
I know I am betraying all kids of the world but I think it should be allowed, because some parents find it hard to find a punishment for their kids, and it does really teach a kid they are doing wrong. Unfortunately some parents can take it too far

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MY NAME IS NOT REALLY SIMEONIE IT IS SIMON!!!
« Last Edit: 27/06/2009 15:10:35 by BenV »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #13 on: 26/01/2006 18:30:31 »
I'd like to echo what most of you have said. I was smacked, my mum & dad were smacked, I have smacked. My mum & dad didn't grow up as deinquents, I didn't, & nor did my daughter.
The big problem is that you get idiots like Claire Raynor, who are so blinkered they can't tell the difference between a smack & battering a child half to death, spouting off on TV, making parents feel guilty & inadequate.
I can't even start to count the number of arguments I've had with social workers about raising kids. Personally I consider sending into a child into a separate room for however long, with no toys & nothing to do except sit there & brood about things, a more cruel punishment than a quick smack on the back of the leg. It's certainly longer-lasting. 2 minutes after a smack the pain has gone.
The other big argument I had with the SS was about arguing in front of kids. According to the SS it's a big no-no - you mustn't ever do it. My view is that if kids see their parents argue & then make-up, it teaches them that you can row & still maintain a relationship. It's a perfectly natural part of life. I haven't yet heard a convincing argument against my view.
 

Offline Ray hinton

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #14 on: 04/02/2006 01:51:12 »
SMACKING IS NOT THE PROBLEM, ITS USING IT AS AN EVERYDAY THING THAT SHOULD BE DISCOURAGED,FIND OTHER WAYS TO PUNISH A CHILD,NO TREATS FOR INSTANCE,SMACK AS A LAST AND ULTIMATE RESORT.
BEING IN THE ARMY DOES NOT TURN YOU INTO A CRAZED KILLER,ON THE CONTRARY, I HOPE IT HAS MADE ME A MORE TOLLERANT PERSON,AS THE ARMY IS ONE OF RESTRIANT AND PEACE KEEPING. [^]

RE-HAB IS FOR QUITTERS.
 

another_someone

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #15 on: 04/02/2006 03:33:28 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver

Personally I consider sending into a child into a separate room for however long, with no toys & nothing to do except sit there & brood about things, a more cruel punishment than a quick smack on the back of the leg. It's certainly longer-lasting. 2 minutes after a smack the pain has gone.




I would agree with this totally.  In fact, I think far too much fuss is made of pain.  Pain (in moderation) is a normal part of life, and human animals, as all animals, are quite tolerant of physical pain.  It is the emotional side that must be looked at more carefully.

But, as I said, while I accept that smacking is often useful, and not particularly harmful, if used very sparingly, it should be sparingly.  It quickly loses its effectiveness if overused.

But I do agree that using deprivation of some sort as a punishment can not only be crueller, but in my case, would probably have been counter-productive.  If the child is anything like I was, the likely effect of depriving me of something was to have me then demonstrate that I can live without that which I was deprived of by deciding to deny myself the same and thus preventing the same from being used as a future source of blackmail against me.

quote:


The other big argument I had with the SS was about arguing in front of kids. According to the SS it's a big no-no - you mustn't ever do it. My view is that if kids see their parents argue & then make-up, it teaches them that you can row & still maintain a relationship. It's a perfectly natural part of life. I haven't yet heard a convincing argument against my view.



To some extent, I speak from a position of ignorance here (well, I suppose I usually do speak from a position of ignorance, but in this case particularly, since my father left when I was 4, and I do not have a family, so have not seen this from either angle).

My own view is that, in general I would agree with you, the one exception is that one should not argue about the child in front of the child.

The reasons for this are twofold.

Firstly, the child might be made to feel guilty that it is the cause of the argument between its parents.

Secondly, the child may feel that the difference of opinion between its parents might present an opportunity to use one parent against the other to its own advantage.  In my view, parents should always seek, as far as is practical, to present a united front to the child.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #16 on: 04/02/2006 04:25:17 »
Punishments should of course only be used as a last resort, be it a smack on the hand or indeed a loss of a privilege. G, your reasoning to decide to do without the privilege was very clever. But were you really satisfied that you no longer could use the object of punishment ?  I presume you were obstinate as a child ?...please do not take that the wrong way, as children our social graces are few and far between , especially in times of anger and disappointment.

I have never smacked any of my children hard enough to hurt.  With my daughter of 3, I merely have to hold her hand and slap it with no strength at all, coincide this with a stern look and a strong tone of voice and she knows she is being punished…usually followed by a cry for a few minutes.....and when I've finished crying I feel a lot better !!:D

It’s no surprise that this does not work on my 9 & 11 year olds, so the denying of privileges is the only course….and it usually works.


My 6 month old receives a good talking to and a written warning that legal proceedings may ensue.:)

The fact of the matter is, kids get away with a lot too….far more than any adult could.





I can not honestly say that I do not know, that when the children have been witness to an argument , as to whether they have been wounded by it or not. I think if the family is a  strong stable unit then these episodes pass with little or no negative consequence and in fact may indeed be a learning process.  When I think back to the arguments that I witnessed I do not think that I have been injured by them, on the contrary I feel  as if I have been guided by them.





quote:
Originally posted by another_someone
Secondly, the child may feel that the difference of opinion between its parents might present an opportunity to use one parent against the other to its own advantage.  In my view, parents should always seek, as far as is practical, to present a united front to the child.



Ooooh !!...you were a scoundrel weren’t you ?

Men are the same as women.... just inside out !!
 

Offline jmilleruk

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #17 on: 15/02/2006 13:13:08 »
Pain is just weaknes leaving the body.....

Rgards,
 

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #18 on: 15/02/2006 16:48:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
I presume you were obstinate as a child ?




I still am, and I still detest threats and blackmail.

 

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Re: quick poll on smacking
« Reply #18 on: 15/02/2006 16:48:20 »

 

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