The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Either multiple universes or God  (Read 6318 times)

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Either multiple universes or God
« on: 23/01/2006 23:32:51 »
I have been doing research on how our universe formed and how we came to be and found that the odds of a universe beign able to sustain intelligent life when it is developing after the big bang is so astrnomical its almost impossible.  Therefore there would haft to be trillions of other universes for the odds to be right for ours to be able so sustain life because so many things need to go right.  If ours is the only one then it had to be created by a God because the odds are just so low.  So u can pretty much say without any uncertainty that one of those are true.


 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #1 on: 24/01/2006 00:20:29 »
Firstly why do you think that there aren't trillions of universes. we can only be aware of the one that we live in.

Secondly if there was a "god" who started it all off who designed and built god?
It is far more probable that thigs are self controlling ad fully cyclic at the basic level

I agree that the end results look improbable at first sight but there could be other factors that make it much more probable.  

Firstly given complex carbon chemistry simple life seems to develop quite quickly (in terms of the age of the unicverse) once conditions are favourable.  Complex life follows eventually and although intelligent life may be a bit of a short lived aberration everything up to mammals is reasonably obvious.

Looking back at the laws of physics.  Consider if an evolutionary process could operate on these laws and they adjusted themselves very slightly at the starting phase so that universes that lasted longest and had the most progeny (ie more universes) would be the most successful.  in contrast to those that popped into and out of existance in a gazillionth of a second.

New universes spawning inside our own universe are black holes. Lee Smolin has pointed out that the laws of physics in our universe are such as to create just about the maximum possible number of black holes and tweaking them very slightly woud result in fewr black holes forming.

This makes the current finely balanced laws of physics look no more improbable than the finely balanced but self controlling processes that maintain the earth as habitable.

This is what "evolutionary philosophy" is all about.  look at my website for a bit more detail.



Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
 

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #2 on: 24/01/2006 00:53:02 »
If u read my post u would know why I know there are trillion of universes.  Because the odds of a universe beign able to support life are so low that it is in the trillions that everything will go right after the big bang for a universe able to support life.  Everything from the laws of physics to the rate at which it expands.  Do some research. I got it out of a stephen hawking book.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #3 on: 24/01/2006 08:12:22 »
Sorry I missed the indication at the end that you were happy with either of the options and felt that you were using it as an argument for the existance of god so I initially presented a counter argument of similar simplicity.  Please now read and try to understand mine because there is a growing consensus in the serious scientific community that the odds may not be quite as long as you first think when you consider the processes that happen in physical evolution!

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 24/01/2006 08:49:00 by Soul Surfer »
 

Offline DocN

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #4 on: 24/01/2006 20:44:34 »
Is Earth the only planet with life of any kind--created by God?
Regards,
   Doc
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #5 on: 24/01/2006 21:40:27 »
I think we're missing the key point about probabilities here.
Either a thing happens or it doesn't. It doesn't matter how likely or unlikely it is (you *could* flip 5000 heads in a row with no tails... no reason why not, it's no less likely than head, tail, head, tail 2500 times).
We know we have happened, because here we are looking at our existence. It doesn't matter how unlikely it is, if it is... god or no god.
Sure, there could be trillions of universes, it would make our existence less surprising, but that we exist is in NO WAY proof that there *are* millions of universes, that strikes me as rather muddled thinking.
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #6 on: 24/01/2006 21:42:45 »
Perhaps a better analogy...
just because there's only a 1 in 52 chance of my drawing the three of diamonds from a pack of cards doesn't imply that if I've drawn a 3 of diamonds I must have made 52 draws, or anything like it. I'll still have drawn that 3.
 

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #7 on: 24/01/2006 22:07:14 »
You guys still arent getting it or your just stubborn.  Lets use an analogy:
There is a lottery where there is a 1 in trillion chance of winning.  U find out that 1 person won.  Since there was a 1 in a trillion chance of winning u can only assume that there was more than one person playing OR that the numbers were fixed to the one person that one.
 

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #8 on: 24/01/2006 22:09:58 »
The more than one person playing is the multiple universes and the fixed numbers are god
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #9 on: 24/01/2006 23:07:14 »
I agree that the probabilities are not critical.  it is reaasonably obvious that however improbable our universe is fit for life because we live in it (the anthropic principle.  

The interesting thing is that given any set of physical laws for a universe evolutionary philosophic principles state that it will self organise to last as long as it possibly can and get as complex as it possibly can

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
 

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #10 on: 24/01/2006 23:25:42 »
What im saying is that your priciple shows that there must be multiple universes.  The fact that w do exist proves that there is beyone a reasonable doubt that there are multiple universes or else we would not exist.  Our universe is fit for life because it got lucky out of the trillions of other universes to be able to support life.  R u guys getting it yet or not
 

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #11 on: 24/01/2006 23:31:25 »
the pricinple that u are trying to use is relevant and made to describe why life was created within our own universe on earth.....not for what I am talking about.  

Look at the odds of life developing on earth and everything that had to be right within our solar system for life to form.  If only one planet formed in our entire universe do u think life would have formed. NO..Because the odds are so low and so much has to be right.  I happens by the sheer numbers of planets.  One has to eventually churn out life. That is what your theory is talking about and that is why I say there must be multiple universes just as there are mulitple planets, suns, solar systems..etc...
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #12 on: 24/01/2006 23:39:53 »
Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't think your assertions have any basis in science or indeed maths.
If there were only one planet, the evolution of life would be less probable. Equally, if there are more universes then the evolution of life is less of an improbable freak than it appears at the moment.
But all I can see in your argument as you are putting it is that, philosophically, you don't like the big numbers involved. That you can't get your head round something doesn't proove, one way or the other, whether it's true. We're here observing our world, for sure. There's no rule that says we have to understand it. We just do our best with the evidence available.
Apparently (I'm told) there is some evidence of the possible existence of other universes (and I admit to filing that under interesting but irrelevant), and no one's yet convinced me of the existence of any sort of god, tho' I don't exclude the possibility. But your assertions don't sway me, at all, one way or the other.
 

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #13 on: 25/01/2006 00:26:47 »
Then your just stuborn.  I am basing this on what we already know about our universe and math.  u would need to prove that there are NOT multiple universes with those odds.  The fact that u think the existence of other universes is irrevelant just shows that u still don't understand my agrument.  Hopefully someone more intelligent can understand what I am saying.  Will someone else closely read what I am saying and respond.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #14 on: 25/01/2006 09:39:12 »
Jman you seem to be very concerned that there should be multiple universes (or a multiverse) within which our universe exists.  The general consensus in cosmology is that thre probably is, although by definition we could not be aware of them. (note I am not talking about Parallel universes very similar or related to our own this is a different topic)

Why is this fact so important to you?

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
 

Offline DocN

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 94
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #15 on: 25/01/2006 20:59:08 »
Does it seem strange that if the universe is teeming with other intelligent life why haven't they made contact with us by now?  Are we really alone?
Have a great day,
Doc
 

Offline jman05

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #16 on: 25/01/2006 22:01:33 »
Thats a whole new topic in its self.  But many would say they have made contact with us and do u have any idea how large our galaxy is much less the universe!!!  Its almost incomprehendable to most.  But like I said thats a whole new topic.
 

Offline daveshorts

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Physics, Experiments
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chaosscience.org.uk
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #17 on: 25/01/2006 23:06:27 »
The universe doesn't have to be teeming with intelligent life to be teeming with life - we know that life has survived for 3-4 billion years but technological life only a few thousand.

They could only have replied if they were within about 40 light years of us (we have only been transmitting radio signals for 80 years and they would have to reply.). In comparison the milky way is 12000 light years across. They would also have to be listening very carefully, and want to reply (and not just goigng to turn up in a few thousand years with an invasion fleet)
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #18 on: 26/01/2006 00:04:53 »
quote:
Does it seem strange that if the universe is teeming with other intelligent life why haven't they made contact with us by now? Are we really alone?




Are we Alone ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????.


Its possible we are unique and our planet is the only place with life of any form.

Its also possible that intelligence like ours is a fluke, we could be the only life form that has evolved  the required intelligence to create technology.

Its possible that advanced intelligent life is so common that we are totally uninteresting and of no interest to anyone apart from ourselves.

Its also possible that our the galaxy is teeming with millions of millions of years old technological advanced civilisations  that are still wondering if they are alone as they have still found it impossible to transmit information or travel faster than light.

Its possible that Unless Einstein is proved wrong we may never ever know.

Its also possible that we are just a part of a complex computer simulation.


In theory anythings possible, and the fact that compared to some people i can be classed as clever or intelligent says it all:D



Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 26/01/2006 00:15:25 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Sandwalker

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 83
    • View Profile
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #19 on: 27/01/2006 03:48:08 »
quote:
In theory anythings possible


I disagree, anythings possible hypothetically speaking. :)

And to speak of a multiverse to explain the reality of our existence has to be as much a step of faith as the believe that it was/is dependent on a diety, or that its tortouises all the way down.

It's hypothesis and can in no way be proven/disproven and as such is no more an answer than a diety or tortouises.

I could not join any group that would have me as a member!
« Last Edit: 27/01/2006 03:51:52 by Sandwalker »
 

sharkeyandgeorge

  • Guest
Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #20 on: 27/01/2006 11:47:09 »
why do the universes have to exist at the same time? the universe started with the big bang and will probably end with a super massive black hole well after that why not a new big bang and another universe for all we know this could be the first universe or the trillinth

"Defender of the Sea"
« Last Edit: 27/01/2006 11:47:44 by sharkeyandgeorge »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Either multiple universes or God
« Reply #20 on: 27/01/2006 11:47:09 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums