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Author Topic: Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?  (Read 37668 times)

Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #50 on: 07/09/2010 08:43:23 »
I strongly suspect this is reproducible, though it certainly doesn't overturn thermodynamics, but that it's not worth the time and effort required to do a systematic study that controls for all the variables.  This one is essentially in the realm of enthusiasts and high school science fair projects rather than high-tech labs.

I strongly suspect this is a load of complete bollocks  ;D

This chestnut has been going the rounds for close on fifty years. If there was an actual phenomenon to investigate, I'd think fifty years would be sufficient time for someone to come up with at least one repeatable experiment.
 

Offline JP

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #51 on: 07/09/2010 08:54:30 »
The Jearl Walker one seems to be fairly repeatable.
 

Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #52 on: 07/09/2010 09:01:52 »
The Jearl Walker one seems to be fairly repeatable.

fairly?

Don't we need one that is repeatable? Fifty years is almost as old as me.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2010 09:03:28 by Geezer »
 

Offline JP

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #53 on: 07/09/2010 10:07:25 »
Nope.  So long as you can repeat it at a rate that's above experimental error, it's probably a real effect.  Whether its 50 or 1000 years old doesn't matter if it meets this criteria. 

Understanding all the parameters that effect the result is a totally different story--and one that isn't worth exploring for most scientists because the effort involved in the experiments is far beyond the payoff--the explanation is probably fairly mundane and not very useful (not to mention that any research in this area is probably completely unfunded). 
 

Offline peppercorn

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #54 on: 07/09/2010 12:46:35 »
Oh, I see where this is going...
An experiment on water that is dismissed by most scientists...

This is clearly not dismissal, this is subversion by the scientific establishment - as the explanation for this phenomenon would prove the truth about 'cars that run on water' scam invention that big-oil is suppressing  ;)
 

Offline JP

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #55 on: 07/09/2010 14:43:12 »
Mhmm... It's because the water has memory.  But you can only see the truth if you wear your tungsten hat to keep the microwaves out.
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #56 on: 07/09/2010 15:10:20 »
Is it good science to ignore facts?  The anomaly has been repeated numerous times.  If we ignore facts, science will be reflected by who can shout the loudest.  I do not believe that science should be based on who can shout the loudest.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline lightarrow

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #57 on: 07/09/2010 15:48:12 »
maybe this is possible Geezer?

Producing a miniature weather pattern:
Steamy energetic water, in  a container, producing water vapors, is placed in a freezer.
The surface of the water in the container is cooling as the vapors escape.
But not all water vapors are lost, some condense and circulate above in a cycle to attempt to gain a lattice crystal structure, precipitates, dropping to the surface and transfers the exchange of heat.
When the water surface reaches its highest density the lattice crystallization begins at the condensed vapor level  and begins to displace the warm water below it. As this happens water begins to freeze at the surface first.
It is the vapors of the hot water creating an additional heat sink.
Note it is slushy not solid ice.
The other room temperature water does not have the abundance of energetic water vapors to do this extra heat sink exchange. 
So the effect would be given by gravity and differences in densities of water, not on the fact it's hot or cold. You couldn't generate such effect in the absence of gravity/ you could generate it in the absence of temperature differencies.
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #58 on: 07/09/2010 17:14:10 »
So, maybe I am wrong.  Perhaps science is and should be based on what those think that can shout louder and longer than others.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline tommya300

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #59 on: 07/09/2010 17:38:38 »
maybe this is possible Geezer?

Producing a miniature weather pattern:
Steamy energetic water, in  a container, producing water vapors, is placed in a freezer.
The surface of the water in the container is cooling as the vapors escape.
But not all water vapors are lost, some condense and circulate above in a cycle to attempt to gain a lattice crystal structure, precipitates, dropping to the surface and transfers the exchange of heat.
When the water surface reaches its highest density the lattice crystallization begins at the condensed vapor level  and begins to displace the warm water below it. As this happens water begins to freeze at the surface first.
It is the vapors of the hot water creating an additional heat sink.
Note it is slushy not solid ice.
The other room temperature water does not have the abundance of energetic water vapors to do this extra heat sink exchange. 
So the effect would be given by gravity and differences in densities of water, not on the fact it's hot or cold. You couldn't generate such effect in the absence of gravity/ you could generate it in the absence of temperature differencies.
Another condition added to the model?
Redefine the question to fit your statement may help?
Why does water freeze from the surface down?
« Last Edit: 07/09/2010 17:41:57 by tommya300 »
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #60 on: 07/09/2010 21:26:35 »
Please see this URL:  http://www.xs4all.nl/-johnw/PhysFAQ/General/hot_water.html
  This symbol"-" should be a "more or less" sign.  I do not have that sign on my keyboard.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #61 on: 07/09/2010 21:53:41 »
I suppose I'm going to have to try to reproduce the effect myself. I'll try it when it gets a bit colder here. It won't be long till we get well below 0°C overnight.

I'm wondering if the cold water is more likely to supercool?

Joe, I don't seem to be able to get that link to work. Try posting a few lines of the text and I'll try to google it.  Thanks!
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #62 on: 07/09/2010 22:06:45 »
If you have a "more or less"  sign please substitute it for the "-" in the URL. I got it by using the URL as shown and I was asked if it was the symbol of "more or less"  When I keyed that URL, the item came up.  It is quite lengthy because the guy who did it went into great detail.  If you will hit the URL that I submitted, it should bring up statement that the URL does not exist and will ask you if the proper URL is the one.  If that will not do it for you, I shall send you an email.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
« Last Edit: 08/09/2010 02:21:16 by Joe L. Ogan »
 

Offline JP

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Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #64 on: 08/09/2010 06:13:55 »
Darn! I thought I tried a tilde, and I still couldn't get it to work. Thanks JP.

So, if I figure this one out, will you nominate me for a Nobel Prize?
 

Offline tommya300

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« Last Edit: 08/09/2010 11:39:17 by tommya300 »
 

Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #66 on: 08/09/2010 17:29:20 »
Is this a coincidence?


Well, you do know that if you get enough monkeys typing, one of them will eventually produce Hamlet  ;D
 

Offline lightarrow

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #67 on: 08/09/2010 17:44:27 »
So, maybe I am wrong.  Perhaps science is and should be based on what those think that can shout louder and longer than others.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
Imagine if we all mankind were, from a long time, in a spaceship with no gravity inside. Would you observe that effect, excluding obvious things as vaporization, hot container which melts the ice on which is placed, ecc? What if someone, one day, said: "on a planet's surface hot water can freeze faster than cold one". Would that make a big impression on mankind? Can you see the relativity of the effect? Do you understand that in physics a real effect shouldn't be relative?
« Last Edit: 08/09/2010 17:48:55 by lightarrow »
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #68 on: 08/09/2010 22:17:40 »
So, how did we get on the spaceship.  Is this relative to the topic? Did you read the URL quoted above?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline imatfaal

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #69 on: 08/09/2010 22:21:48 »
There is a nice article on the controversy (and yes it is a controversy) here at the institute of physics Does hot water freeze first?.  I think some of the respondents are being too dogmatic - despite much effort a simple set of experimental conditions have not been defined that are consistent with theory.  In fact is is really difficult to even obtain self consistency. 
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #70 on: 09/09/2010 00:37:34 »
There is a nice article on the controversy (and yes it is a controversy) here at the institute of physics Does hot water freeze first?.  I think some of the respondents are being too dogmatic - despite much effort a simple set of experimental conditions have not been defined that are consistent with theory.  In fact is is really difficult to even obtain self consistency. 
Well, I thought that the majority of scientists agreed on this.  It is rather amazing to me that (I think) most scientists agree that the "Big Bang" Theory is the accepted way that the universe was formed.  To the best of my knowledge, that experiment has never been duplicated.  I am beginning to understand why primitive man devised the theory of religion.  It gave them an answer to every thing that they could not explain.  The Lord did it!  Is this the new scientific approach?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #71 on: 09/09/2010 00:51:30 »
Oh, so now you read the article, when Imat posts it. Sheesh!

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=33717.msg322030#msg322030
 

Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #72 on: 09/09/2010 01:03:20 »
"I thought that the majority of scientists agreed on this"

Only if you consider JP to be the majority of scientists  ;D
 

Offline JP

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« Reply #73 on: 09/09/2010 01:51:45 »
I know I do. ;D
 

Offline DoryT

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #74 on: 09/09/2010 12:58:12 »
I am under the school of thought that "hot water" cannot freeze as long as it stays "hot water". :P
 

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #74 on: 09/09/2010 12:58:12 »

 

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