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Author Topic: Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?  (Read 6403 times)

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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When a sphere moved through Flatland, Flatlanders saw many two-dimensional circles of different sizes appear and disappear.  If a higher dimensional construct moved through our 3-Dimensional world it would appear to us as a 3-dimensional object.  I was thinking of photons and how engineers are entangling photons, applying a change on one and causing a simultaneous identical change on the partner particle - the so-called Einstein "Spooky Action at a Distance".  I work with maps and one of the constructs we have is a polygon with non-contiguous areas - that is a single polygon with two or more separate geographically separate components.  This had me thinking that  entangled photons could actually be representations in our 3-D Space of the same master photon.  This would imply that the engineer/physicists aren't really entangling photons, but rather spotting which two photons are really the same photon.  This would further imply that if we change one of the "entangled photons"  and expect a change on its partner, we could also expect there to be change on a third representational photon - part of the same non-contiguous photon master moving through our 3-dimensional world.  We could expect there might be n particles that are all representations of a higher dimensional construct that intersects our 3-Dimensional world.  For us the photons appear as separate particles, but in reality they are of one construct, so when we act to effect change on one we cause the rest of photon to change as well.   
« Last Edit: 18/09/2010 18:22:41 by Expectant_Philosopher »


 

Offline imatfaal

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #1 on: 20/09/2010 15:46:56 »
OK - you have me hooked, how can you have a polygon with discrete and separate sections? Isn't this what we would technically call 'two polygons'?  if the polygons are 2d projections of a 3d object I suppose I could cope but i would still prefer to describe them as two polygons. 

i am still thinking on the entanglement bit - probably to no profitable end
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #2 on: 21/09/2010 00:53:21 »
You could have two separate polygons or you could have one polygon that describes both areas.  A single polygon is actually more powerful as a data filter.  With Geographic Information Systems you can have many layers of data.  The polygon is a useful geospatial query filter.  If you select two polygons and query against their geographic area for data, the query engine searches against the a rectangular area encompassing including the two polygons and a bit more and then filters for the specific areas covered by the individual polygons.  However if you query against the single polygon that has the geographically separate areas, then the query engine only searches within the single polygon and filters for the area of the two areas.  It might seem trivial, but it is an important distinction when dealing with large datasets.
« Last Edit: 23/09/2010 02:50:25 by Expectant_Philosopher »
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #3 on: 23/09/2010 02:48:16 »
What could it mean if photons were really some higher dimensional construct?  Could we assemble enough "entangled photons" to form a structure composed of photons in our 3-D world?  Could we use the photon structure to tunnel through space-time to get to another area of our 3-D world?
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #4 on: 25/09/2010 18:38:33 »
Why is there a wave function for a photon? What is at the heart of the forces that bend the force lines to form the wave function of the photon?  Are gravitons what defines the wave function of a photon?  Do the gravitons have a dual existence, part in our 3-D realm, and part in the higher dimensions?
 

Offline yor_on

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #5 on: 25/09/2010 19:56:41 »
Sweet idea :)

A new angle on the question if there only is one single photon existing, as some friend to Wheeler thought for a while, if I remember right? You will have to explain your polygons though, links appreciated :)

But you can make 'entanglements'

"A laser input beam of a known wavelength in sent into a non-linear crystal (basically like a small lens) tuned for the input wavelength. Most of the input photons pass through unchanged - and these are ignored. Perhaps one in a million, however, undergoes a metamorphosis. It emerges as 2 photons. Because of conservation of energy, momentum, spin, etc, they are each half the energy and twice the wavelength of the original. Total spin is conserved, so knowing the polarization of one tells you the polarization of the other. They are entangled because they exist as a superposition of states until they are observed. Because these entangled photon pairs emerge off-angle from the original input beam, they can be captured and pulled aside for testing - often using fiber optics and lensing mechanisms to manipulate."

A beam splitter alone won't make two out of one, as I understands it?
Take a look here for the process Make Two, Keep One

So?
We can 'make' new photons from a 'nothing' both situated inside our SpaceTime.
How would that fit your idea?
==

Or was it Feynman?
Both??
« Last Edit: 25/09/2010 20:01:47 by yor_on »
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #6 on: 26/09/2010 18:42:33 »
We wouldn't actually be making new photons, but just recognizing them when they enter our 3-D space.  The main structure of the photons might actually exist in the higher dimensions.  This would agree with Einstein's field concept of continuous structures, and conservation of momentum. It could also explain the dual-slit experiment results, with both particle nature of light (that which we can derive from our 3-D world), and the wave nature of light (that which may come from higher dimensions).  This seems to fit for "hidden variables" and Bell's theorem. 
 
The polygons concept is common in the geospatial world.  Look to any item under Geographic Information Systems subject heading for polygons.  Polygons are groupings of areas, these can be continuous or non-contiguous spaces.  They are usually used in the continuous mode.  The non-contiguous many area polygons are defined/connected by some common data field. 
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #7 on: 27/09/2010 03:22:41 »
Polygon code in Arcgis to unite two polygons into one.

Creating a polygon using existing geometries
A polygon can be created based on a topological relationship between existing geometries. In the following code example, a polygon is generated by uniting two existing polygons:

[VB.NET]
Sub CreatePolygonFromExistingGeometries(ByRef pPolygon1 As ESRI.ArcGIS.Geometry.IPolygon, ByRef pPolygon2 As ESRI.ArcGIS.Geometry.IPolygon)

'Build a new polygon by uniting two existing polygons.
Dim pTopoOp2 As ESRI.ArcGIS.Geometry.ITopologicalOperator2
pTopoOp2 = pPolygon1
'Simplify.
pTopoOp2.IsKnownSimple_2 = False
pTopoOp2.Simplify()
Dim pPoly As ESRI.ArcGIS.Geometry.IPolygon
pPoly = pTopoOp2.Union(pPolygon2)
'pPoly is the new generated polygon.

End Sub
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #8 on: 27/09/2010 03:36:21 »
Higher dimensionality of photon structure would mean that photon structure exists outside of our 3-D space, yet that structure can touch our 3-D space anywhere, everywhere at the same time, which would mean an exchange of information would be possible without regard to time or distance. 
 

Offline imatfaal

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #9 on: 27/09/2010 12:20:09 »
Higher dimensionality of photon structure would mean that photon structure exists outside of our 3-D space, yet that structure can touch our 3-D space anywhere, everywhere at the same time, which would mean an exchange of information would be possible without regard to time or distance. 

Would it though?  A higher dimensionality would mean that your particle would have a more complicated existence - but it would still have a tangible measurable existence (or more than one) in the three dimensions we know and love.  As we can never (?) examine or experiment directly upon the other dimension we don't know about information transfer within it; but surely we must assume barring other evidence that it is the same as in our three dimensions and is limited by the speed of light.  Information transfer speed from one part of an object to another part could be limited whether that object is higher dimensional or not.  I think what I am getting at is that speculating that higher dimensions are involved does not solve the problem; one also needs to posit new ideas for the higher dimensions.
 

Offline yor_on

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #10 on: 27/09/2010 18:25:25 »
It's a nice concept, but confusing in the same time. To me it all comes back to free will, and why not what we call 'super-positions' which in a way is an expression of the state all 'free will' or 'choices' must come from. Like this, think of space as a surface, then 'wrangle it up'. Depending on how you wrangle it you get different properties from it, some of them introduce mass. Mass introduce the concept of times arrow and with that distances. All sweet and good :)

But then we come to 'free will' and 'choices' making it able for me to 'willfully' change my position in this 3D + time. What would make that possible? If now space could do those things I described? It's so much easier to imagine it possible in a 'deterministic system' where all moves are steered by 'dead weight', nothing changing the predefined 'dead course' of those 'objects'.

When you introduce that concept you still will have to explain that 'free will' it seems to me :)
As for the explanation, I looked for your idea of polygons without really coming to grip with it. The closest I came was as a way to 'pan for information' making into a 'information concept'? So it's not a way of 'bending space' geometrically as I first assumed then?
==

To put my description in sync with your, photons are what we call the 'information carriers' between, and 'inside', particles, although 'virtual' being outside Planck Time. Which makes them a prerequisite for all mass to exist, I think? Or at least being a symbiosis with that mass. Awh, don't know if you see what I mean there, like this, without those photons no life would exist.
« Last Edit: 27/09/2010 18:38:50 by yor_on »
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #11 on: 02/10/2010 19:24:46 »
Higher dimensionality of photon structure would mean that photon structure exists outside of our 3-D space, yet that structure can touch our 3-D space anywhere, everywhere at the same time, which would mean an exchange of information would be possible without regard to time or distance. 

Would it though?  A higher dimensionality would mean that your particle would have a more complicated existence - but it would still have a tangible measurable existence (or more than one) in the three dimensions we know and love.  As we can never (?) examine or experiment directly upon the other dimension we don't know about information transfer within it; but surely we must assume barring other evidence that it is the same as in our three dimensions and is limited by the speed of light.  Information transfer speed from one part of an object to another part could be limited whether that object is higher dimensional or not.  I think what I am getting at is that speculating that higher dimensions are involved does not solve the problem; one also needs to posit new ideas for the higher dimensions.

We could measure aspects of the higher dimension from the structure that impinges on our 3-D world.  This could lead to insights about the higher dimension.  What if the true nature of light was described in this higher dimensional construct?  The limited nature of the speed of light itself could lead to speculation that this limit is due to some sort of structure that we cannot define in our 3-D world.  The experts are saying that we can't see the other dimensions because they are so small.  What if it is our dimension that is so small, the the higher dimension wraps around us?  If light were a membrane that surrounded our 3-D world and its existence in our world would be mere touches into our 3-D world, then the structure of light would suggest that it exists everywhere in our world at the same time, and when it enters our 3-D realm we see it as moving at the speed of light. The speed of light therefore might be the permeability factor of our world. A limit on how easy it is for light to enter.  Any effect on the higher dimensional structure affects it universally, there is no time factor.  If we could harness such a property we could travel across the universe, as if we passed through a doorway going from here to there without any space in between. 
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #12 on: 02/10/2010 19:55:44 »
It's a nice concept, but confusing in the same time. To me it all comes back to free will, and why not what we call 'super-positions' which in a way is an expression of the state all 'free will' or 'choices' must come from. Like this, think of space as a surface, then 'wrangle it up'. Depending on how you wrangle it you get different properties from it, some of them introduce mass. Mass introduce the concept of times arrow and with that distances. All sweet and good :)

But then we come to 'free will' and 'choices' making it able for me to 'willfully' change my position in this 3D + time. What would make that possible? If now space could do those things I described? It's so much easier to imagine it possible in a 'deterministic system' where all moves are steered by 'dead weight', nothing changing the predefined 'dead course' of those 'objects'.

When you introduce that concept you still will have to explain that 'free will' it seems to me :)
As for the explanation, I looked for your idea of polygons without really coming to grip with it. The closest I came was as a way to 'pan for information' making into a 'information concept'? So it's not a way of 'bending space' geometrically as I first assumed then?
==

To put my description in sync with your, photons are what we call the 'information carriers' between, and 'inside', particles, although 'virtual' being outside Planck Time. Which makes them a prerequisite for all mass to exist, I think? Or at least being a symbiosis with that mass. Awh, don't know if you see what I mean there, like this, without those photons no life would exist.


What if your world is heaven.  If in your heaven you live forever.  The most immediate impact would be boredom.  If you knew you'd live forever without a doubt, would you ever find life exciting again?  Life opens up to possibilities as you need them.  One infinity must mean that all possibilities must exist. If we reach a critical mass on Earth to live forever we really need to get out visiting, just to keep from being bored.  We couldn't possibly pack enough resources to travel to nearly enough worlds.  These limits suggest that there must be an easier way to travel, some method to traverse the universe in the blink of an eye.  We've grown up in a cocoon, now we're breaking out. What you decide to get involved in, what you decide to do makes your world.  If you want to believe you live in a block universe where everything exists in all dimensions, times, and places, the implication is mind boggling.  The implication is that you are everyone you meet, all life, all existence.  ... to keep from being bored we initiate variety and change in ourselves.

 
 

Offline yor_on

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #13 on: 04/10/2010 20:26:06 »
You should start to write me man :)
Do a book on the concept, but make it a adventure.

I'll read it with pleasure.
==

As for proving it?
That's another question.

Look at it this way, life is a concept we're fairly used to. But a 'divine being' might not be so.
After all, there's no death for such a one. So, certainly an divine act of imagination would be needed to introduce it. And with it starvation, babies heads crushed against walls, corruption, child soldiers, rape as an corrective act, etc. Would I be such a one I would weight the absence of boredom against those most gravely, and probably decide that I can go without it.. For a while more :)
« Last Edit: 04/10/2010 20:32:43 by yor_on »
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #14 on: 10/10/2010 04:26:17 »
I had a long think.  Trying to find a way to harness the transportation possibilities.  Again it is Einstein that comes to the rescue.  He found that if we were to accelerate something to faster than the speed of light then the object would stretch out to infinity.  This fits perfect.  This describes the effect of photon structure in higher dimensions.  This limit recognized by Einstein is not a problem, but a solution.  What he has in effect done, is to describe the interface between our 3-D world and the higher dimension.  This can also point towards a way to utilize the interface.  If we accelerate a photon faster than the speed of light then the photon would stretch to infinity.  If we could direct the photon to envelope a magnetic bubble as it stretches, we could send an object in the magnetic bubble through the higher dimension.  I thought how would we be able to direct the object towards the distant end, and it couldn't be simpler.  If we stretch the photon around a magnetic bubble on one end, and on the opposite end accelerate another photon faster than the speed of light then the magnetic bubble will be at both locations at the same time.  The magnetic bubble and all its contents would be unaffected since they don't really move, and no time passes, it would remain intact throughout the transference.  There is no need to break it apart to transmit it.   
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #15 on: 27/10/2010 02:29:45 »
Can we say handheld transport device?  From DARPA, Single Photon Trap Research - Photon-Trap Structures for Quantum Advanced Detectors, Solicitation Number: DARPA-BAA-08-64.  Also, from DTIC RDT&E Activity  Project MT-12 includes, Compact portable power sources capable of generating power in the range of a few hundred milliwatts to one watt to provide power for other chip-scale microsystem.  Project MT-12 also includes chip-scale micropumps to generate chip scale vacuums, Chip Scale as well as Chip-Scale High Energy Atomic Beams program to develop chip-scale high-energy atomic beam technology by developing high efficiency radio frequency (RF) accelerators, either linear or circular, that can achieve energies of protons and other ions up to a few mega electron volts (MeV). Chip-scale integration offers precise, micro actuators and high electric field generation at modest power levels that will enable several order of magnitude decreases in the volume needed to accelerate the ions. Furthermore, thermal isolation techniques will enable high efficiency beam to power converters, perhaps making chipscale self-sustained fusion possible. A NIST project, introduced a tiny sensor that can detect magnetic field changes as small as 70 femtoteslas-equivalent to the brain waves of a person daydreaming-has been demonstrated at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST).  These technologies might be brought to bear on accelerating a single photon to Faster Than Light speeds, generating and detecting magnetic fields all in a device smaller than a shoe box.   
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #16 on: 06/02/2011 18:52:31 »
Further thoughts...  In theory, with quantum entangled particles, what we do to one of the entangled particles happens to the other particle.  What if we entangled two photons and accelerated one of them to the speed of light?  In Einstein's theory at the speed of light the particle would stretch.  If, in the accelerator, instead of colliding the particle with a target particle, we have the accelerating photon target a magnetic bubble.  In my theory the photon would stretch around the magnetic bubble at the speed of light.  Its partner photon at the distant end, would by necessity also stretch to the shape of the magnetic bubble.  Would the space inside the two entangled photons so stretched be the same space, a common space, which could transport an object without destroying it? 
 

Offline Expectant_Philosopher

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
« Reply #17 on: 24/07/2011 20:13:10 »
Oriol Romero-Isart at the Max Plank Institute for Quantum Physics in Garching, Germany is conducting an experiment in Quantum Superposition to see whether they can zap a glass sphere 40 nanometres in diameter with a laser while it is inside a small cavity. They hope to force the sphere into a quantum superposition to get it to be in two places at one time. Also involved in the research are Mathieu L. Juan of Barcelona, Spain, Romain Quidant of Barcelona, and J. Ignacio Cirac from the Max Plank Institute.  This experiment is close to my proposal.
 

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Can we describe photons as a higher dimensional construct?
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