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Author Topic: Are UFOs real?  (Read 29276 times)

Offline lightarrow

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #25 on: 25/09/2006 15:01:58 »
We only have to wait six years more. In 2012 we will be invaded from aliens. (Do you remember X-Files?)
 

Offline tony6789

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #26 on: 05/10/2006 15:59:25 »
i heard it waz 2015...

NEVER! underestimate youth
 

Offline nannham

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #27 on: 10/10/2006 17:45:39 »
I heard it was 2011 ... so there you go ...

But seriously ...

quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Could there be higher order life that is regularly visiting this planet?

Unless it has found a way to travel faster than the speed of light, then either the visits would have to be very infrequent, or they must have a home planet that is very close.  If it takes a million years to travel each way, then clearly a single space ship could not have made even a single round trip in all the time that homo sapiens have inhabited this planet.


If they ... whoever 'they' are ... are in a craft travelling at 98 to 99% of the speed of light, due to time dilation their ship time factor will be a lot shorter than their port time factor ...

They could get here well within their own lifetime ... if their starting point was, say, from 4 to 35 lightyears from here ...

Of course they could only make one trip, because during the port time it would take to get back to their home world, their own civilisation will have passed away long since ...

Here's another idea ... what if they came here once only ... long ago ... and their original craft is orbiting one of the moons of Saturn, for example ... and serves as a habitat for subsequent generations of their kind ...

Could be they are closer than we think, living in a habitat right here in our own solar system ...

Regular trips into Earth orbit, probes into our atmosphere, would then be plausable ....

But there is also the factor of advanced civilisations existing in our galaxy or even neighbouring galaxies at the SAME TIME as ours here ...

There is not much chance of that ... perhaps intelligent species once existed somewhere, but are extinct now ... or perhaps another intelligent species will evolve again somewhere, after we ourselves are gone ...

... given enough time ... there is a problem with that too ... planetary systems of such type as ours come from matter left over after supernovae of very hot first generation stars ... and the process takes a lot of time ... billions of years of it ...

 

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #28 on: 10/10/2006 22:25:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by nannham
If they ... whoever 'they' are ... are in a craft travelling at 98 to 99% of the speed of light, due to time dilation their ship time factor will be a lot shorter than their port time factor ...



There perception of time would be shorter, but it still holds true that within the lifetime of the homo sapien species, they could not have done a round trip, even if in their own perception the journey only took a brief instance.

quote:

They could get here well within their own lifetime ... if their starting point was, say, from 4 to 35 lightyears from here ...



Indeed – but what is the probability that they are that close – how many stars of the right type are within that short a distance of us?  Ofcourse, low probability is no more an impossibility than a high probability is a certainty.

quote:

Here's another idea ... what if they came here once only ... long ago ... and their original craft is orbiting one of the moons of Saturn, for example ... and serves as a habitat for subsequent generations of their kind ...



Why so close – why not place them beyond Pluto?

Certainly, they could be there – but what are they doing there – why are they there?  Are they there by choice, or marooned – I suspect that if it were me, I would feel very marooned?

What do you mean by generations?  Do they reproduce in a manner that we would identify as generational?

If they are indeed orbiting in a very small, highly isolated, island community – what are the evolutionary consequences for them  (such a community on Earth would probably be in evolutionary regression)?

quote:

Regular trips into Earth orbit, probes into our atmosphere, would then be plausable ....



To what purpose?  The only reasonable purpose I could see would be to obtain raw materials for their own sustenance – but although the Earth has a rich variety of resources, and is still much smaller than the giant planets, it would still be an expensive trip to make.  If they could obtain the same from small comets and asteroids, it would be a great deal cheaper in terms of energy usage.  It is clear that if they are capable of traversing the vast interstellar voids without requiring external resources, they will not need to obtain external resources very frequently once they get here (they must be the equivalent of interstellar camels, only occasionally needing to find a planetary oasis).

Ofcourse, going back to my earlier statement of evolutionary regression – it is possible that having reached our solar system with the capacity to be self sustaining, they have regressed to where they need to make landfall more frequently, and are now unable to go far from our solar system because they have lost the ability to survive extensive periods away from a planetary resource.

It still leaves the question as to why they set out upon their journey in the first place?  Were they exiled here, or did they choose to come here (knowing that they were unlikely to ever return, or at least to return to the same world and the same civilisation that they left), or did they drift off course?  Why did the civilisation from which they came even develop the technology to transport their life forms over such large distances when they clearly could not come home again?

Ofcourse, if we are talking about robots, entities that are considered disposable (even maybe slaves), then it may be that they would send these out on one way exploratory missions even if they were never going to come back, because they are considered of sufficiently low worth to the civilisation that sent them that it matters not if they return or not.

But there still remains the underlying problem of the evolution of the technology that brought them here.  One does not simply design and build a ship that can travel interstellar distances – the technology has to evolve, step by step, with ships that can get ever more capable with each generation, until one day one makes that final step to have a ship with interstellar capability.  What were those intermediate steps, and why were they undertaken, and how was there success demonstrated?  You cannot demonstrate a success unless you can see the end result – but how did they view the end results of the intermediate designs if those intermediate designs already had capabilities only slightly less than the capability of the ship that brought these aliens to our solar system?





George
 

Offline kiefer

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #29 on: 19/10/2006 19:54:38 »
i dnt believe in ufos because evryone is lyk ooo derr alien ufos just because they dont kno what it is

kiefer
 

Offline RRR

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #30 on: 12/12/2006 11:06:18 »
The extra-terrestrials, aliens, batmans ,vampires  are personages of movies and fairy tales...
The stories  are fairy tales for children.. In real life of the Earth you do not find any extra-terrestrials,vampires
and werewolves..
The  most part of the "Unknown .Flying Objects" it is   military  machines of  the Earth's countries...
The military "UFOs" fly to observe with military goals  any terrestrial objects of any foreign countries....
The military machines can  stop itselves in an atmosphere "to stand" in an air..
The military machines can  fly in atmosphere in any directions,  horizontally or vertically towards to up and towards to down.
But in the Earth and in the Solar system  there are not any extra-terrestrial machines and there are not any   live organisms of extra-terrestrial origine. 
 

Offline cheryl j

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« Reply #31 on: 21/11/2011 21:53:12 »
A friend of mine mentioned that it seems like claims of UFO sightings, especially close up encounters, have significantly decreased as the popularity of cell phones with camaras has increased.
 

Offline CliffordK

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« Reply #32 on: 21/11/2011 22:41:30 »
A friend of mine mentioned that it seems like claims of UFO sightings, especially close up encounters, have significantly decreased as the popularity of cell phones with camaras has increased.

Interesting observation, especially since people now have better access to cameras as well as the internet.

I think the military used to claim that some of their experimental airplanes were UFO's to avoid talking about them.  Perhaps there is more transparency now.

There have also been so many hoaxes that people have just gotten tired of the whole concept of UFO's.

Interstellar travel is great for movies...  but it is quite improbable that aliens would spend the extraordinary effort to travel to Earth, just to buzz our atmosphere and put on pretty light shows.
 

Offline Nizzle

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U.F.O's
« Reply #33 on: 22/11/2011 06:19:52 »
Besides if they are smart enough to travel through space why would they bother with us stupid humans


Why do we stupid humans keep animals in a zoo? ;)
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #34 on: 22/11/2011 11:45:56 »
A friend of mine mentioned that it seems like claims of UFO sightings, especially close up encounters, have significantly decreased as the popularity of cell phones with camaras has increased.
  A very good point.  Additionally the quality of consumer priced cameras has increased massively.  I carry a camera most of the time - sometimes it's my nikon slr and other times its a little coolpix.  20 years ago I also carried a camera most of the time - mostly my minolta slr and the rest of the time a crappy instamatic.  The quality of pictures from the two slrs are broadly comparable, in usability the nikon wins but the minolta wins on fine detail; both can take beautiful pictures capable of serious englargement.  But the quality from the small cameras are not comparable, fixed focus, shoddy optics, tiny cartridge film, and single shutter speed meant that anything in distance was blurred and mostly unrecognizable - the coolpix which cost about the same has autofocus, optical zoom, sophisticated optics and electronics and a decent ccd - and will take video.  People nearly always have access nowadays to sophisticated and quality recording devices - and that is in addition to the near ubiquitous nature of mobile phone cameras as you mentioned.  we should be seeing a marked increase in well recorded sightings but we are not!  whilst absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, even the english courts now allow inferences to be drawn from the lack of evidence/response.
 

Offline Geezer

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U.F.O's
« Reply #35 on: 22/11/2011 19:00:02 »
The aliens know we have a lot more cameras. They can see the ads on the telly too. Now, they only land their UFOs at night in Loch Ness.
 

Offline OokieWonderslug

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« Reply #36 on: 23/11/2011 12:51:24 »
I don't believe that ufos are a physical phenomenon. They appear to be small glowing balls of light. They appear out of nowhere, fly around apparently under intelligent control, and then vanish again. I suspect they are spiritual in nature. I don't believe in aliens. And even if there were aliens there is no reason for them to hide and not show themselves. Why travel that far just to look? That is like driving across country only to arrive, peek into the window and then go home. Seems silly.
 

Offline peppercorn

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U.F.O's
« Reply #37 on: 23/11/2011 14:50:06 »
I suspect [ball lightning, etc] are spiritual in nature. I don't believe in aliens .... Seems silly.

So you consider Voyeuristic L.G.M. to be silly [no disagreement here].

But a spiritual explanation comes with the ring of veracity for you? - Surely these odds would be several trillion times longer (even for a theist).


Whether this is real phenomenon or not (that's still yet to be proven), surely a meteorological explanation would be by far the most likely cause, no?
« Last Edit: 23/11/2011 14:54:38 by peppercorn »
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #38 on: 24/11/2011 02:16:15 »
The aliens know we have a lot more cameras. They can see the ads on the telly too. Now, they only land their UFOs at night in Loch Ness.

Damn & curse you sir! Now you've given the game away. They are watching this forum, you know. I was just packing my Boy's Own Super Slueth camera and tripod with 5000mm hyper telephoto, super low light lens to get a few good shots of ET dipping his toes in Loch Ness and talking to the monster.

Dawg gone it! Guess I'll put my 'Supersaver' rail ticket on eBay now.
« Last Edit: 24/11/2011 02:17:50 by Don_1 »
 

Offline Don_1

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« Reply #39 on: 24/11/2011 02:27:11 »
...... I suspect they are spiritual in nature........

Hmmmm..... Sorry, but I think that suggestion is as bonkers as flying saucers, cigars and doughnuts, except that I would agree if you mean , 'they are all in the mind'.


BTW - Anyone noticed, this has been posted on 'Non life Sciences' board. Sounds about right to me.
 

Offline nicephotog

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #40 on: 18/12/2011 03:23:02 »
Quote
...claims of UFO sightings...
Again as usual the requirement to look at the data heading for the graph.
What about both ghosts-> point to life as alive, and , UFO's point to evolution somewhere else where it is prime in the universe to be alive, e.g. maybe they take a look and fly away because its too cold to have life here because its often below 500 Centigrade, or maybe their physiology disallows it because its too hot and require this to at least be in ice age.
Personally i believe of Vogon destroyers , keep blowing up things in space or back blasting some propulsion system and they'll pull the yanks over sometime because of the debris.
 

Offline Donnah

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #41 on: 30/01/2012 05:02:23 »
If aliens are capable of visiting us then they are more advanced technologically than we are.  I would theorize that, like us, some of them are nicer than others.  So the goal of some could be to collectively problem solve so that everyone benefits.  The goal of others could be less benevolent.

I heard a theory that primitive man was genetically spliced with aliens long ago, and that's why we had sudden technological leaps.  It would also explain why the "missing link" is missing.

Yes, I believe there are UFOs from other planets bringing visitors, some of whom become resident aliens.
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #42 on: 31/01/2012 01:38:55 »
Are UFOs alien spacecraft visiting earth? Almost certainly not!

Is there life out there in the universe. Almost certainly SO.

Is there intelligent life out there in the universe. Most probably so.

Is that life at least as scientifically advanced or more so than us RIGHT NOW? Big maybe!

Is that advanced civilization by happen chance anywhere near our neighborhood of the galaxy? Most probably not.

Would that advanced civilization have any useful reason to spend the enormous amount of time and  energy required to travel across all those light years to get here. Almost certainly not.

Are UFOs then simply objects unidentified? Almost certainly!
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #43 on: 31/01/2012 07:39:30 »
Would that advanced civilization have any useful reason to spend the enormous amount of time and  energy required to travel across all those light years to get here. Almost certainly not.
Perhaps...
If we identified an "earth-like" planet in a "habitable-zone", 100 lightyears from Earth, perhaps we would choose to send an egg&seed ship there.  Or, at least send some long distance probes that hopefully would reawaken 100,000 years from now, after they made the passage. 

If we could detect water at the planet, all the better.  However, detecting high levels of oxygen in the atmosphere would be attractive, but a a sign that the planet was already "taken"...  which would add to our curiosity, but perhaps make it unattractive for a colony ship.

Anyway, yes, someday we might choose to send a ship 100+ light years to the right planet.  However, undoubtedly we would not be content with just buzzing the atmosphere of the destination, although there might be a brief planning period before "first contact", which could involve a communication delay back to our home planet.

However, even with a 200 year communication delay, one would still be forced to ask "why now"?

Anyway, I have no doubt that many of the past "UFO sightings" were weather balloons, mirages, and perhaps top-secret military devices that the military chose not to admit that they were testing.
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: U.F.O's
« Reply #44 on: 31/01/2012 16:21:16 »
I remain doubtful. Supposing we could find out that such a planet exists, and supposing we could determine that it could sustain human life, would we send a ship there? More to the point, would we send a manned ship there (as the analogy of UFOs is that there are aliens coming here). I cannot imagine it happening. Not even a government would have the resources to pull this off.

Would a worldwide coalition do it? Well, who? I am not aware of any such coalition who would be wiling to spend the resources. Particularly, as you rightly point out, it would take 200 years to find out whether it was worthwhile.

We tend to be an impatient species........
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #45 on: 01/02/2012 16:20:00 »
Given the age of the galaxy and two assumptions:
1. Intelligent life is not a phenomenon unique to the earth
2. Interstellar travel is practical (requires some new physics)

Then there will be very many intelligent species out there many millions of years in advance of us (evolution, genetic engineering, technology etc.) and they would certainly have earth on their maps. It is hard to comprehend such a species given the limited existence of humans and the very limited time we have had in trying to utilise technology but, suffice it to say, if they did not want to be detected, they would not be detected. They certainly could be observing us, controlling our development or maybe doing neither. We are not going to know.

 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #46 on: 01/02/2012 19:55:16 »
2. Interstellar travel is practical (requires some new physics)
That seems like an awfully big assumption.

I have no doubt that we will learn more about basic principles of gravity, and the fabric of space in the future.  However, I am doubtful that it will bring a huge revolution in interstellar travel.

Everything that I have calculated, we will never be standing on the bridge of the "Enterprise", and jumping halfway across the galaxy in a few moments, hardly noticing that we have even moved.  And, communicating back to Earth in real-time.

With onboard engines, energy requirements will be enormous to reach a high fraction of the speed of light.  And, even with that, it will take years to reach the nearest stars.

Land based electromagnetic acceleration would be preferable, but it would still require essentially a lethal dose of acceleration, and an extraordinary amount of energy to reach abysmally slow speeds.  Quick course reversals won't happen, and maneuvers such as aerobraking, while important for energy conservation, will be extraordinary dangerous. 

I have no doubt that humans will eventually attempt to reach the nearest stars, and may slowly spread with local hops from star to star across the galaxy, but it will not be something to be taken lightly.

Telescopes, on the other hand, will be something that can be improved over time, with better cameras, and just sheer brute force.  I can imagine a 1-mile diameter lunar based telescope in the future, or even much larger.  Also arrays of dozens, or hundreds of sparsely spaced telescopes functioning together as one.  Even so, observations of all 300 billion stars, and perhaps a few trillion planets in the Milky Way will take time.
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #47 on: 01/02/2012 22:48:55 »
Given the age of the galaxy and two assumptions:
1. Intelligent life is not a phenomenon unique to the earth

You may be right about intelligent life in the universe. In fact you are probably right. The sticking point for me is, is that intelligent life of an advanced enough technology Right At This Time? Because if they were at their height, say, even a hundred years ago, we could not have "talked" with them across space.

Likewise if they are now about where we were circa 1900, they could be right across the galactic street and we would never know as they would have no way to hear us. The timing of intelligent life as advanced as us or more advanced as us is pointless unless they coincide with our technology level at this time, right now.

The other reason I am not optimistic about intelligent life is the fact that in all the 4 and a half billion years the earth has been around, the biological throw of the intelligent life dice has only been rolled (as far as we know) once. Right now! That means that for 99.999% of the age of the earth, this planet got along fine without an intelligent, self aware species. Think about that for a minute. I'm not at all sure intelligent life is a common outcome of evolution on other planets. Life itself - sure! But intelligent life. The odds seem very, very tiny.

2. Interstellar travel is practical (requires some new physics)

Like someone mentioned above, this is a HUGE leap. I would be thrilled to be able to stand on the bridge of the Enterprise. According to everything we know about science at the moment though, that is never going to happen. To wish it is true is not logical (pun intended).

So we have to deal with the immensely big problem of distance. A super advanced society that is a million light years away is almost pointless. Not only could we not ever meet them, by the time we got a message and sent one back they could be long extinct, or we could go extinct waiting for the return message.

 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #48 on: 02/02/2012 01:04:14 »
As far as longevity of the society.

If our sun was any bigger than it is, then it would have burnt out before the 4 billion years that it took for humans to evolve.

Smaller stars have a lot longer time period, but apparently often have a lot more variable output, potentially making the growth of life difficult.

There are some predictions that the environment on Earth will become unstable (without human influence) in the next billion or so years. 

The other factor in the equation is metallicity.  While our universe is estimated to be about 14 billion years old, it is quite possible that the first life could not have evolved before 5 billion years ago or so due to insufficient metallicity.

Actually, I'm having troubles finding the metallicity data, but it should be possible to find.  If we assume the metallicity of our sun (or thereabouts) is the minimal metallicity for intelligence life, then there should be a distance in lightyears where few stars pass the threshold.

Anyway, there may be multiple factors that have led to humans to evolve NOW, HERE, ON EARTH. 

Obviously the universe is big, but it may be that all intelligent life is actually evolving right now, with all civilizations synchronized +/- a few billion years.

And, if a society doesn't evolve to the point where they can escape the parent star, then the society will die with the parent star.
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #49 on: 02/02/2012 02:24:47 »
CliffordK wrote "Anyway, there may be multiple factors that have led to humans to evolve NOW, HERE, ON EARTH."

I'm curious. Are you suggesting that it may not have been totally random that a self aware organism appeared on earth at this point in the life of the universe. That was the implication I had from your statements.

If so would you go into that a bit more? I have always thought it was a totally random occurrence.

This is one of those questions that has intrigued me for a long time. Why sentience now? In all the billions of years of life on the planet. Why now, if it was not a totally random event.
 

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #49 on: 02/02/2012 02:24:47 »

 

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