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Author Topic: Are UFOs real?  (Read 29289 times)

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #50 on: 02/02/2012 05:27:50 »
Ok.

With the "Big Bang" theory (which is the current theory for the creation of the universe).

At first there was nothing.
Then there was a Big Bang
Then there were ions and Energy
Then there was HYDROGEN.

The first stars would have been Population III stars..  They would have started with essentially 100% Hydrogen.  Any planets would also have been made up of 100% hydrogen, and unable to support life.

As the first generation of stars went supernova or otherwise were extinguished, a second generation of metal poor stars, Population II Stars were formed.  Perhaps not all stars go through supernova, but it is believed that most of the heavier than lead elements are actually formed during the supernova, and there must be a mechanism to spread the heavy minerals through space to become planets.  Anyway, the second generation (Population II) stars probably would not have supported life either.  Even though we are made up of primarily Carbon and Hydrogen, we require heavier elements such as Iron (for hemoglobin), as well as all the stuff rocks are made out of.  An advanced civilization also requires many other elements to make our tools.

So, as the second generation went supernova, a third generation, Population I stars, was born, including our sun.  These would have had the necessary minerals around them for planets like Earth to form.  There is also a set of Extreme Population I stars, I'm not sure if these are considered a 4th generation, or a continuum of the same generation of the Population I stars.

I'm not finding a good timeline.  Here in Wikipedia is a discussion of the early period after the Big Bang.



Anyway, sometime around the time of the formation of our sun was the time when life, or "intelligent" life would have first been possible in the universe.  Then, assuming Earth was "average", 4 or 5 billion years later, Humans came along.

Thus, one would conclude that while there may be some advanced societies that are a few billion years old, there are no advanced societies that are more than a few billion years old.  There would be a point in the Universe where the light has not arrived yet from stars with sufficient metallicity to support an advanced civilization.

Stars lifetimes vary tremendously.  For example Canis Majoris is simply HUGE.  Yet, it is believed to be around 200 million years old, and is predicted to go hypernova in about 100,000 more years.  If there was life on a planet around the star, it would be snuffed out before an advanced civilization could form.

Escaping our solar system will be the biggest task our civilization (and our progeny) will ever face.  Yet, in 4 billion years, our solar system (and several other nearby stars) may become inhospitable to life.  Predictions are that our sun won't go through a supernova phase, but rather will become a red giant followed by a white dwarf.  Any remaining civilization will likely become vagrants in our solar system, jumping from Earth to outer moons, then returning to as close as possible to the future cooling remnants of the sun.
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #51 on: 02/02/2012 09:51:38 »
My point is that whether you accept that there is practical interstellar travel and that we are not unique, or whether you think that insterstellar travel is confined by physics to be impractical, then the conclusion would be that alien UFO's would not be ever seen in either case. Either they would be too advanced and way beyond our technology, or that they would not exist.

Clifford, I did some calculations for a post a while ago which is why I gave a cautious estimate that alien races would be "only" many millions of years in advance rather than billions. The spread of when development of life (and/or intelligent life) would occur is very large indeed and this is added to the large spread of time for the development of a solar system with a habitable planet. Of course, maybe humans have been the lucky first ones, but again there would then be no alien UFO's then either.

Personally, I think our knowledge of the structure of space-time is at its infancy. Everything we know is probably wrong, so I would not like to predict that there will never be practical interstellar travel. This may be wishful thinking on my part but it would be a great shame, with all these stars, that we could never practically get to any of them. In any case, it won't be happening any time soon.
 

Offline Don_1

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #52 on: 03/02/2012 08:09:40 »
........ with all these stars, that we could never practically get to any of them. In any case, it won't be happening any time soon.

Should I unpack my suitcase then?

The fact remains that the vast majority of UFO sightings can be explained. German scientists were working on the development of many odd shaped aircraft during WWII, including a 'flying saucer'. Many of these scientists, at the end of the war, found themselves working in a top secret base in New Mexico, where so many of these sightings took place.

That aside, I am still of the opinion that if any civilisation has managed to achieve inerstella travel, upon finding other life (such as us), they would try to make contact, not hide.
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #53 on: 03/02/2012 09:24:34 »
That aside, I am still of the opinion that if any civilisation has managed to achieve inerstella travel, upon finding other life (such as us), they would try to make contact, not hide.

I'm intrigued why you think this. We are speaking of beings likely to be very much ahead of us, intellectually and technologically. What benefit would it be to them to make contact? They could simply observe us or, I expect, if they so wished, live among us ingognito. That is if they are even interested. Our own history suggests that contact between disparate cultures is often highly destructive of the less "advanced" society. This may be something that benevolent aliens would wish to avoid and, even if they did interfere to our advantage, it would be highly controlled and totally invisible.

 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #54 on: 03/02/2012 12:22:26 »
I think the question is what would bring the Aliens to choose to come to Earth at all.  Tourism?  Curiosity?  Mining biological organisms?  Conquest and colonization?  Minerals?

I think intellectual curiosity is one of the things that will drive humans to attempt interstellar travel one day.  Observing, but not meeting the new species would only satisfy half one's curiosity.

Part of the ultimate decision to contact or not would be dependent on whether it is a relatively easy trip, or a grueling multi-generation trip.  And, it will also depend on how many alien species one would be meeting.  Aliens might be content to observe Earth if there were multitudes of other alien species, but might choose "first contact" if we were the first aliens they ever encountered.
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #55 on: 03/02/2012 15:01:21 »
My assumptions are based on intelligent life being fairly prolific and, therefore, being also very advanced or, alternatively, being essentially confined by physics to their own locale. In the last post here I was just considering the former case and then it is likely that there would be some hierarchy of capabilities (but all much superior to our own) and some organisational agreement on how to treat a non-spacefaring planet. But it would seem very unlikely that, if life is very rare, the species that found us and that had the capability to get here, would gain anything much by making themselves known. They would still be likely to be much in advance of us (just based on statistics) and would be aware that it may be seriously disrupting to our society as it stands today, even to the point of destroying it.

I dont think colonisation, conquest, mining for minerals or organisms are likely because by the same statistics there would be plenty of planets they could look at without intelligent life. That is if they wanted anything they could not synthesise. Curiosity/tourism I like though - this could be benign and non-damaging to us and, I imagine, would be of some interest to such beings.

Of course this is all slightly speculative :-)
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #56 on: 03/02/2012 17:02:30 »
Thank you, Clifford. I appreciate the explanation!
 

Offline Livewire

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #57 on: 21/02/2012 21:16:51 »
i would have to say yes aliens, and UFOs exist to your question are they among us? probably not; then again its a big world. lest we forget what Steven hawking said "we would naive to think that this is the only place in the universe that things come together perfectly to support life we only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn't want to meet," 
 

Offline redreed

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #58 on: 23/02/2012 14:49:43 »
I for one don't believe it till I see it. ^
 

Offline Ophiolite

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #59 on: 24/02/2012 10:31:54 »
I for one don't believe it till I see it. ^
Why would seeing it make you believe it? Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. People see patterns where none exist. Hallucinations are not uncommon. I should require considerably more than a personal observation to establish belief in any disputed concept.
 

Offline Donnah

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #60 on: 13/04/2012 19:11:40 »
I saw a UFO at a KOA campground in Yuma Arizona in 1978.  I believe it to be a military experimental craft, since I'm told there is a base nearby.  It looked like clear glass tubes connected in a framework roughly the shape of the Concord.  Each joint had a pinpoint of light.  I theorize this was a prototype, since it was not much bigger than a Cessna, but similar models seen in subsequent years were much larger.  It was completely silent and seemed to be traveling with us along the road at a walking pace.  It was across the road and about two pole lengths higher than the telephone poles.

Has anyone else been lucky enough to see something unexplained?
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #61 on: 15/04/2012 22:10:55 »
Back in the 70's, my dad and I thought we saw a UFO flying around Creswell, OR, I think.  It looked like a low flying craft with windows or something.  We followed it with the car for a bit, and later determined that it was likely an airplane towing a banner just beyond the range where we could make out the letters.
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #62 on: 07/05/2012 04:27:47 »
I believe that unidentified flying objects exist. When I was in the hospital in February of this year, while I was watching TV in the TV room I looked out the window and say three whie lighs flying in a triangle formation. No plane has such a configuration of lights. Other people sitting in the room also saw them and that was before I exlained what I saw to them. All I said was "Did you see that?"

There was another sight that three of us saw when we were driving down the road at night in a van in New Mexico. The sky was blck as black  could get! More after I get more sleep.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2012 04:29:33 by Pmb »
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #63 on: 07/05/2012 09:50:46 »
Of course UFOs exist, Pmb, it was a flying object and you clearly did not identify it :-) Why do you think a sophisticated alien spacecraft, with an aim to be hidden, would have navigation lights, or have any external lights?
 

Offline Pmb

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #64 on: 07/05/2012 13:37:22 »
Of course UFOs exist, Pmb, it was a flying object and you clearly did not identify it :-) Why do you think a sophisticated alien spacecraft, with an aim to be hidden, would have navigation lights, or have any external lights?
It's not that simple. When the aircraft lights are all of one color then they can't act as navigation lights. So a craft that has only three white lights has no navigation lights at all. If there were three small crafts each with one single landing light pointing forward then that would describe what I saw since such a light would have a rather large arc. The length if time I saw the group was not enough to determine of there was any relative motion between the lights and there was thus no way to determine of that was the case. But if it was summer then it would make sense. The hospital was near a landing field.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2012 13:40:17 by Pmb »
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #65 on: 07/05/2012 18:17:53 »
This conclusion is not really one of the more likely ones. If you read my earlier posts you will know my view: if there are alien civilisations, which I think likely, then they will be very, very advanced technologically. Assuming they have found a way to overcome what our current physics would suggest and are, at least observing us, we would simply not know. They would not display lights: navigation, landing or otherwise and could probably remain completely undetectable with our less sophisticated technology. Of course if there is no way around the physics, or if intelligent life is a very rare event, then there would be no alien UFOs either. So, at least in my view, it is very unlikely that anyone is really observing alien spacecraft in the many "sightings" that occur every year. I think a more prosaic explanation is much more likely. In fact most UFO sightings that get investigated are explained, though there have been some that remain unexplained. It looks like the balance of probabilities suggests a simpler explanation. I have yet to see any incontrovertible evidence for alien craft and given the number of claimed sightings this would be unlikely unless it is the case that world governments, and their civil and armed forces, are all involved in a cover-up (as, it seems, some people believe), which is also very unlikely.
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #66 on: 08/05/2012 19:38:44 »
If the laws of physics as we currently understand them prove accurate, there simply is no way an advanced civilization would take the enormous power, time, and resources just to come and visit us. I would go so far as to say it is the height of hubris to think we humans are worth a visit!

If it turns out that there is some way past the speed of light limitation, a civilization advanced enough to have that technology, once again, would desire to come to earth why? If they are that advanced they certainly do not need anything we have to offer.
 

Offline Donnah

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #67 on: 10/05/2012 18:44:01 »
I think the "speed of light limitation" is similar to the old "speed of sound limitation".  I also think there are both government (and some privately funded) UFOs as well as alien visitors. 

Why would aliens allow us to see them?  It brings to mind the way I train wild horses.  Since they are fearful (like most people are of aliens), I let them gradually get used to my presence until a trust bond is formed.  They may want to visit us as part of the course of their explorations, or because they want or need something, or maybe to guide us.  Who knows?  I think if they we're going to do something nasty it would have been done by now.  That said, I'm sure I would have great trepidation if a craft or alien came very close.  I suspect my curious nature would win out though.

Why do you suppose some people have multiple sightings?  Do you think humans can communicate with aliens through mental telepathy?
« Last Edit: 10/05/2012 18:50:21 by Donnah »
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #68 on: 10/05/2012 19:44:24 »
I think the "speed of light limitation" is similar to the old "speed of sound limitation". 

Then you are simply ignoring a vast amount of scientific evidence.
 

Offline time-cop

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #69 on: 14/05/2012 01:38:05 »
Quote
Then you are simply ignoring a vast amount of scientific evidence

What if someone does discover a way to travel faster than light ? would this be unacceptable to science, after all, science is there to discover these things and not shoot them down ( unless your a ballistics scientist of course ), im not the sharpest tool in the box (ask Neillep ) but i do wonder about a lot of things, and what would stop us going faster than light ?  :o
 

Offline graham.d

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #70 on: 14/05/2012 10:33:03 »
If someone does discover a way to travel faster than light of course this would not be unacceptable to science. It would completely turn our current understanding of physics upside down but I do not know any scientist who would deny the existence of something palpably and demonstrably true. That would be a totally mad thing to do.

At present the laws of physics do not allow anything to travel beyond lightspeed. They may be wrong, and probably are, but they are consistant with observations and experiments to date. Until it is demonstrated that something is behaving in a way that is inconsistant with these laws, and therefore proves them wrong, they are the best, and only realistic, guide to predicting how the universe behaves and how to guide our engineering.
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #71 on: 14/05/2012 15:25:11 »
At present the laws of physics do not allow anything to travel beyond lightspeed.

Except space itself, of course. Which I find very intriguing. In an annoying kinda way........
 

Offline imatfaal

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #72 on: 15/05/2012 10:27:40 »
At present the laws of physics do not allow anything to travel beyond lightspeed.

Except space itself, of course. Which I find very intriguing. In an annoying kinda way........

OT - But no space does not travel at light speed.  there is no causal connection, no information transmission, no ability to measure that happening.  Things get further apart at a rate that not even light could cross the distance - but there is no evidence or theory that has anything moving at greater than light speed as far as we know
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #73 on: 15/05/2012 15:23:28 »
It is my understanding that anything within space is limited to the speed of light, but that space itself is not. That space expanded much faster than the speed of light just after the Big Bang. Of course, my understanding has been known to be confused at times!
 

Offline Gordian Knot

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #74 on: 15/05/2012 15:26:54 »
Getting back on point. My earlier query:

If it turns out that there is some way past the speed of light limitation, a civilization that advanced certainly does not need anything we have to offer. So why would they bother to come here?
 

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Re: Are UFOs real?
« Reply #74 on: 15/05/2012 15:26:54 »

 

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