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Author Topic: From where do magnets obtain their "energy" ?  (Read 19487 times)

Offline syhprum

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« Reply #25 on: 08/10/2010 10:14:15 »
I think QM is a bit like miracles to religious believers, if you believe in an Omnipotent being that can make anything happen the world becomes very simple you just say it happens that way because god wills it.
I think QM is the best explanation available to the ungodly I think we need some more forbidden fruit to help us understand.
 

Offline JP

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« Reply #26 on: 08/10/2010 10:48:56 »
I think they can explain it.  It's just that the explanation and solution often requires very complicated expressions, and isn't all that enlightening: It's just treating the fields with quantum mechanics, which means you end up with a lot of quantum mechanical wave integrals.  There happens to be a good approximation that can be made and that approximation happens to have a nice(r) interpretation as something that's particle-like. 

There's another thing I didn't mention above: that is that the type of integrals which can be approximated with virtual particles show up a lot in quantum mechanical calculations involving fields.  Talking about virtual particles is also useful shorthand for these complicated expressions.
 

Offline yor_on

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From where do magnets obtain their
« Reply #27 on: 02/12/2010 19:03:37 »
I think it has to do with our natural limitations. It's impressive that we are starting to create words and ideas describing things we can't observe, but that we expect to be 'there' anyway. Our universe is changing into a concept where its origin becomes something not 'existing' to us, creating what we see as the 'reality'.

And no, I'm not religious, that much :)
 

Offline Bill S

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« Reply #28 on: 04/12/2010 23:17:05 »
Quote from: Chris
such as a stone taken to the top of a building - it has gravitational potential energy, but the energy had to be supplied by the stone being carried up in the first place.

Suppose that on the other side of that building there was a very deep hole (e.g. a mine shaft) and you released the stone over that. It would not stop at the top of the hole, so there must be more gravitational potential energy involved than was put into the stone by taking it up the building.
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #29 on: 05/12/2010 00:03:48 »
I must confess that I do not understand how a magnet works.  Could it be a form of natural storage of electricity?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline yor_on

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From where do magnets obtain their
« Reply #30 on: 05/12/2010 12:39:04 »
You could see it one of two ways Joe, or more? Who knows :) Either as 'forces' forcing 'transitions', or as 'emergences' creating 'new properties'. The second viewpoint gathers under chaos theory.

If you're working with particle physics you have some maxims, unstated mostly as I see it. One of them is that there will be 'forces', and that they are 'real'. Another is that that everything is created from 'discrete events' in SpaceTime, including magnetism. And the third I think is the 'background' on which those 'discrete events' is seen to happen.

If you think of it as fractal principles you don't really need 'discrete events'. What you need is 'relations' leading up to 'emergences', although those 'emergences' to us will have a shape and so can be associated with 'forces', making both point of views 'convertible' when over Plank size to me, Except for the maxims preceding them.

I lean to a 'mind-space' of principles, found to be 'real' through mathematics and experimentations that proves them to work at a practical plane. To see what I mean you can think of that 'time dilation' and 'Lorenz contraction' both are shown to exist, but on a complementary plane. You will only be able to see one of them, never both together. Only when thinking of that spaceship can you 'experience' both effects. That's the 'mind-space' we work from, to me that is  :)
 

Offline yor_on

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From where do magnets obtain their
« Reply #31 on: 05/12/2010 13:04:34 »
The important thing to understand there is that the 'relations' is 'SpaceTime', no 'background' needed to it. Also creating the idea we have of 'discrete events' when passing a certain 'size'. That makes us like some 'foam' on, or in, a ocean of 'something else'. And it also allows for what what we call 'forces' to be created, without what we call the 'arrow of time' involved, on that 'plane below/inside/outside' whatever :) that may exist.

And there are no real 'borders' between it and us, just principles 'forcing' us into a certain way of seeing and experiencing SpaceTime. It allows for a lot more unexplainable phenomena than magnetism if you look at that way as neither motion, the arrow of time, distances and matter space and light are exactly what we think they are. Not on that 'plane'.

And it have to be organizational principles that 'puzzles it all together' what we see. The nice thing is that it allows for different 'puzzles' to me, and that I expect that there will be a principle for their 'creations' too hidden somewhere, maybe found as some weird constant to us.

Also it explains the question of why the properties of 'thingies' can be so different at different 'sizes', all as I see it of course :)
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #32 on: 05/12/2010 20:55:10 »
Hi, yor_on.  Now that really clears everything up.  If I could get someone to explain what you said, I am sure that I would understand it even better.  LOL Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #33 on: 05/12/2010 21:08:12 »
Joe,

Try this. All atoms are electromagnetic in nature. In "magnetic" materials, like magnetized iron, the crystalline structure of the iron aligns many of the atoms in a particular direction, so, you have a magnet.

What I'm not very clear about is how those magnetic forces are communicated through space.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #34 on: 06/12/2010 12:35:18 »
Heh, you might be right Joe :)
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #35 on: 06/12/2010 12:46:54 »
You could look at this way, maybe :), from my point of view.

The 'force' of magnetism if it was 'relations', could be like someone standing behind a mirror (of water:), 'throwing a pebble'. For you on the other side of the mirror the 'pebble' won't be seen, but its effects will still show itself. The 'pebbles' are thrown everywhere though, in every magnetic line you see, and with all that we call 'discrete events' coming to be in it.

Maybe?

:)
==

But not really, 'distance' and 'times arrow' is concepts on this side of the mirror, but on that other side it doesn't need to exist. But if it doesn't there still is needed to be some equivalence to it, that at last 'emerge' as our arrow of time, and distance.
« Last Edit: 06/12/2010 13:05:41 by yor_on »
 

Offline techmind

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From where do magnets obtain their \
« Reply #36 on: 08/12/2010 23:39:25 »
I'm afraid that, despite my PhD including a certain amount of work on "magnetic materials", I can't offer any great insights or explanations (especially not now, 10 years on).


What I will say is that magnetism (or magnetic fields) is fundamentally related to electricity - in as much as any moving charge, including a wire passing a current, generates a magnetic field and will experience a force if that wire or charge is placed within some other magnetic field. It's a bit like saying that the magnetic field is a special kind of "turbulence" or "gust" which is caused by the moving charge or current.

To demonstrate this, you can take any piece of wire (nice copper wire). You know copper is not magnetic, can move it near a compass and the compass won't move. Now short that wire between the terminals of a small battery (an alkaline AA cell, C cell or D cell), and you'll find the compass moves when the wire is close.

Please only short the battery momentarily (no more than a couple of seconds at a time), use regular "alkaline" batteries only.
Never ever do this with any kind of rechargeable battery (NiCd/NiMH/lithium-ion/lead-acid etc) as you will probably burn your fingers and may even have an explosion!!!


One way or another, permanent magnets can be considered as entities with never-ending circulating current-flows.

People worry about how a magnet "keeps going", but actually if you think about the force (especially repulsive force) as more like compressing a spring... well no-one asks how a spring keeps "pushing back" forever without getting tired!


How about static electricity (electric charges)? We know you can pick up small bits of paper with a rubbed balloon - or stick said balloon to ceiling. Is that any more or less 'mystical' than magnetism? I guess magnetism is commonly rather stronger so seems more impressive!
« Last Edit: 08/12/2010 23:40:58 by techmind »
 

Offline CliffordK

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« Reply #37 on: 09/12/2010 03:37:14 »
Ok, here is what I've gleaned....

First lets look at electromagnets. 

Any wire carrying current will create a magnetic field.  If it is a straight wire, it will follow the "right hand rule" with the thumb pointing in the direction of current flow (+ to -) and the fingers wrapped around the wire representing the magnetic field.

If you loop the wire, so the current travels in a circle, all the magnetic fields inside the loop are in the same direction, and one gets an electro-magnet. 

On an atomic level, the electron cloud around certain types of atoms can be oriented so that the orbiting electrons also generate a magnetic field. 

Three types of magnetic fields are possible.
    1. Ferromagnetic - This is what we think of a permanent magnet.  Exhibits a strong, lasting magnetic field.
    2. Diamagnetic - Rather unique.  Creates an anti-magnetic field.  Repulsed by all magnetic fields.  Only exists when around magnets.  Superconductors are Diamagnetic.
    3. Paramagnetic - Exhibits a weak magnetic field, attracted to magnets.  Field dissipates in absence of an external magnetic field.

So, the "Ferromagnets" often contain Iron Oxide, but not necessarily.  The magnetic field is usually induced by a stronger magnetic field.  And, it is maintained by the orbits of the electrons.

The question comes up...  what is the smallest magnet that can be made.

So, can a single Iron atom become a magnet?

This actually came up in another topic.  Hemoglobin is an excellent example where a single iron atom (ion) is held more or less in a rigid place by a protein.  Depending on the oxidation state, it can be either weakly diamagnetic or weakly paramagnetic.  But, there is no way for it to maintain its electron orbit, and thus the magnetic field dissipates in the absence of an externally applied field.

Most magnets are actually compounds, mixtures, alloys, and ceramics. 
An example would be the basic "Ceramic Magnet" which is a mixture of Iron Oxide and either Strontium Carbonate or Barium Carbonate.

So, the "basic element" of the ceramic magnet is Iron Oxide (one of several), one Barium Ion(Ba2+), and One Carbonate Ion (CO32-).  Or, in the case of Magnatite, just Iron Oxide (Fe3O4), but actually is a two part mixture of Iron II and Iron III oxide (FeO·Fe2O3)

My interpretation is that applying a magnetic field to the Iron Oxide ceramic creates a resonance structure in that the electron spins of neighboring atoms/molecular elements.  This fixes the spin so that they do not return to a random orientation.  And, barring an external force, this resonance should endure essentially forever.  The smallest magnet should be a few dozen molecules.

The ceramic is disordered.  A crystal such as Magnetite is ordered, and likely holds its magnetization better. 

Anyway...
My interpretation is that a permanent magnet is a resonance induced in electron spins.
 

Offline thedoc

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From where do magnets obtain their "energy" ?
« Reply #38 on: 10/12/2010 15:31:01 »
We discussed this question on our  show
Dave -  Okay. In order to create a magnet, you’ve actually got to put some energy in. Certainly, a permanent magnet. You've got to rotate all the low atomic magnets inside the piece of metal, piece of iron and rotate them all up and line them all up so their magnetic fields all add together. And that takes some energy and a magnet does have some energy. But for that to keep on going doesn’t require any energy. It’s a bit like saying, “Why does the earth keep attracting us forever?” They're just forces which exist forever. The actual magnetism in a piece of iron or in a permanent magnet is actually caused essentially by electrons orbiting in one direction more than the other, and the electrons are going to keep on orbiting, as far as we know, for billions of years, as far as we know forever, unless something interrupts them. So the little atomic magnet is going to carry on forever. There’s no reason why the magnet shouldn’t carry on.
Chris -  It’s basically not burning off any energy to make the field and it’s something interacting with the field that actually makes an effect rather than the other way around.
Diana -  But why is it then that some magnets get demagnetised over time?
Dave -  Okay. The atomic magnets would stay magnetised, but especially if you drop them, you can cause them to re-align a bit every time you drop them. If they get very hot, they can get re-aligned as well. So, the atomic magnets is still there, but instead of all pointing the same direction, they start to become more and more randomly organised, so the overall field is less and less, and less.


Click to visit the show page for the podcast in which this question is answered. Alternatively, listen to the answer now or [download as MP3]
« Last Edit: 01/01/1970 01:00:00 by _system »
 

Offline yor_on

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From where do magnets obtain their
« Reply #39 on: 31/12/2010 22:44:47 »
Very nice thedoc. Solid matter physics sort of, like we had different densities where 'matter' had one, 'virtual particles' another. Those densities observable as unchanging for us gaining different kind of 'properties', defined by the 'densities' we can't observe. I like that.
 

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« Reply #40 on: 09/11/2015 20:24:34 »
I n my opinion it is likely a yet to be fully understood relationship to the electromagnetic for carrier photons.. Conservation of energy must apply if a magnet does work lifting an iron filling off a table it may weaken yet over time and a constant temperature and pressure it should gain from background photon bombardment the energy necessary to replenish less loss due to Entropy it steady state values. Recall; we are not taking about electron orbital promotion but rather effects that would affect things spectral broadening and possibly generalized positional uncertainty as well as internal momentum uncertainties.To get an analogous insight into these notions study Mass-Spectrometry‎.
This is my opinion - I do not have  PhD.
 

Dre314

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« Reply #41 on: 13/09/2016 14:33:33 »
Dave definition isn't accurate at all,the mechanisms of magnetism are still a mystery,he did not address the question.physicist admit that we don't know why magnets work ,we only know that they do and it has to do with an unbalance  of electrons.you should Google it yourself.
 

Jason Lee

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« Reply #42 on: 06/12/2016 14:59:15 »
Magnets are quantum,  therefore they're energy is from a quantum source. Quantum energy is in the ether everywhere..quantum energy is of a push-pull nature... We ourselves have a quantum molecule in our DNA yet to be discovered. This enables us to change physics and do miracle things when this molecule is activated. Consciousness of a higher vibration is the key... Magnets will pave the way to amazing quantum inventions in the near future..... Believe, and become great, of that what we are!  :)
 

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« Reply #42 on: 06/12/2016 14:59:15 »

 

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