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Author Topic: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?  (Read 107901 times)

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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taken partly from another of my post:

A quantum of light (a photon), may possess an infinitesimal energy and always travel at C in vacuum.

Matter can be convert into light and light into Matter. There is a working wave model for particles in Quantum theory.

Light is a very simple electromagnetic wave. It seems evident that light is the basic building block of everything. For those who would say that the electromagnetic force is not fundamental, i would reply that how can it be if a photon may have an infinitesimal energy?

I know it sounds too easy to be true and it turns everything upside down but it is logical and beautiful...
 
If a photon wave enter a highly curved spacetime region, it could catch its tail: the wave could close on itself. It would stop moving at the speed of light according to outside observers, it would appear to them as a particle and it would even create a gravitational field... You just need curving spacetime and light... Every type of particles and forces could be a question of energy density and relativistic movement (including spinning)with only some quantum states possible (arising from the electromagnetic field)... The same way the magnetic field is a relativistic effect of the electric field, the weak and nuclear force could be a relativistic effects of the electromagnetic field.

Only very high energetic photons (very short wavelength) could create matter and antimatter particles having a nuclear field. Less energetic photons created electrons and other particles, including dark matter, without a nuclear field.

I have been thinking about this for many days now and i don't see any contradiction with existing proved theory that could deny this theory. Only if light travels at a slower speed than C in vacuum and light have a non zero mass (which is possible) i did not find anything wrong, there is always an easy explanation... It even explains gravity...


« Last Edit: 15/10/2010 17:45:50 by CPT ArkAngel »


 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #1 on: 09/10/2010 01:57:29 »
It explains the dichotomy of Quantum theory and Relativity theory. Quantum theory is a theory about light (ultimately) and Relativity is a theory about Gravity (curved spacetime). They are both linked with the constant C but otherwise, they are independent because the Universe is made of 2 things: light and curved spacetime (or more specifically spacetime that curves in the vicinity of light). In my opinion, a general theory should integrated curvature of spacetime to the Quantum theory in its general equations and it should use the photon as the elementary wave-particle.


C is the link between light and SpaceTime... E=MC^2...


I am not a religious freak but it is still interesting (Captain ArkAngel is only my gamertag) (-:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Extract from the Bible... ;D
« Last Edit: 09/10/2010 04:10:32 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #2 on: 09/10/2010 04:03:06 »
Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle arises from the fact that a closed photon (creating a matter wave-particle) would still possess a basic spinning or rotating wave propagation speed of C...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_constant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

Light possess an electromagnetic field but no mass and it curves spacetime, it means electromagnetic field = gravity... A lightwave travelling through a prism for example, is slowed down by the curvature of spacetime in its path caused by the nearby particles "gravitational" field. Light always takes the shortest path...

Please see this and look in the table, you will find the same long distance behavior and range for both electromagnetic and gravitation forces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_forces

It is basically the same force. Quantum Electrodynamic Theory (quantum theory of light interactions with matter) sees it as an electromagnetic field and General Relativity sees it as Gravitation...

« Last Edit: 13/10/2010 05:25:18 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline Kelvinjohnson

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #3 on: 09/10/2010 09:54:13 »
Interesting ArkAngel. Trying to get the sequence right. So a photon can loop on itself forming all the particles, including quarks we see (and don't see). It can loop on itself because of space time curvature, curvature it can self-generate depending on it's frequency. Right?
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #4 on: 09/10/2010 17:01:49 »
You need high energy photons (high frequency) and maybe a very high energy density medium for nuclear particles, like at the time of the Bigbang. Maybe it is made from only one photon... Maybe gravity appears from the cancellation of 2 or more photons electromagnetic waves... It would agree with actual Physics of Particles. Charged particles are made by partial cancellations...

All or almost all particles having a strong nuclear field have been made at the Bigbang. Even a star doesn't produce them, it fuses them...

Electromagnetic force is about opened waves (light) and about "free" waves (or remnant waves, = electric charge) of a particle. Gravity is about closed waves of light (if you prefer, cancelled waves)...


After having found the final solution, the free remnant wave is not a moving wave, but it is the static charge (you can see it as a standing wave when at rest)... Charged elementary particles are not made by partial cancellation. All elementary matter particles are made of total cancellation, though some photons may be emitted for energy conservation. The charge may be cancelled or not. If the charge is cancelled, it becomes a Dark Matter particle.
« Last Edit: 25/11/2010 02:54:34 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #5 on: 10/10/2010 23:04:39 »
I did some calculations about the minimum energy needed for a photon to become a particle having a strong nuclear field.

The wavelength has to be smaller than the strong nuclear force range

For only 1 photon in a circular wave:
λ < 2pi * 10(exp-15) (circular wave of circumference = 2piR, this is an approximation)

For λ = 2pi * 10(exp-15)
E = 1,24/2pi GeV This is the absolute lower limit of photon's energy to get a particle having a strong nuclear field.

For 2 photons cancellation they both need
λ < 2*10(exp-15)
E < 1,24/2 GeV

Look at QCD scale here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_constant

the bottom quark mass has about 5 GeV (at least, the order of energy quantity is good), 8 could be the wave integer number of the bottom Quark 8 * 1,24/2 GeV = 4,96 GeV... but 10(exp-15) is an approximation of the strong force range, it still give a good idea of the process... The bottom quark is a charged particle, meaning it is made from a partial cancellation, most energy is stored in the nuclear field as mass and some as the electromagnetic field (the charge). The electromagnetic field may have a part of its energy as mass because electrons have a mass, a particle with mass is a closed wave... The mass of the electron is stored in the electromagnetic closed wave without the effect of a nuclear field, the charge has the energy of the remnant "free" or uncancelled wave, that is why it is a light particle. Electrons are elementary particles because only photons can produce them. This is a stable quantum state of partial waves cancellation...

see this about quark mass measurements... http://indico.bnl.gov/getFile.py/access?contribId=155&sessionId=33&resId=0&materialId=slides&confId=189
« Last Edit: 25/11/2010 02:57:11 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #6 on: 11/10/2010 04:57:31 »
Light possess an electromagnetic field but no mass and it curves spacetime, it means electromagnetic field = gravity... A lightwave travelling through a prism for example, is slowed down by the curvature of spacetime in its path caused by the nearby particles gravitational field. Light always takes the shortest path...

There's 2 mistakes here.  First, what curves space-time in general relativity is a quantity called the stress-energy tensor, which basically is a measure of energy and momentum as well as their flows in space and time.  Although it doesn't have mass, light has energy and momentum, so it can curve space-time.  In fact, mass can be related to energy and momentum, which is why mass can be thought of as curving space-time. 

Second, light bends in a prism because it slows down when it enters the glass.  The fundamental reason for this is electromagnetic interactions between light and the glass, not gravity.  Gravity would be far too weak to have such a large effect.
 

Offline JP

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #7 on: 11/10/2010 05:04:37 »
I've seen a lot of posts on theories that electromagnetism is the only force and that everything can be derived from it.  The problem is that the other forces and particles have properties that the electromagnetism and the photon don't.  Maybe photons can combine in some undiscovered way that gives rise to all the other properties that have been observed.  I don't know if someone's proved that they can't, but certainly no one has proved that they can.

However, various theories of everything are trying to do things similar to this--postulating that everything arises from some simpler mechanism.  Maybe in that case everything, including photons, are made up from some simpler elements.
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #8 on: 11/10/2010 05:10:35 »
You are right but i did not say that light has a mass but only it curves spacetime because it is not a closed wave. For the prism, i should not use the term gravity because the light is affected mostly by the interaction of "free" waves (the charges) and not significantly by the closed waves (gravitational lightwaves)... But still, light takes the shortest path. I used the term gravity just to emphasized my theory that gravity and electromagnetism are the same type of field, closed wave vs opened wave.

Correctio: Light travel through space along the basic curvature of space produced by matter (rotating photons).
« Last Edit: 21/02/2011 20:04:21 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #9 on: 11/10/2010 05:15:26 »
it is not possible right now to produce photons with enough energy to make a particle having a strong nuclear field. But theoretically, it could answer many problems of modern physics...

The only explanation for E=MC2 is that matter is entirely related to light. Is there another wave-particle having the speed of C? Even neutrinos are not supposed to travel at C and have a mass...

Do you have links to recommend?
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 05:47:17 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #10 on: 11/10/2010 06:24:41 »
The only explanation for E=MC2 is that matter is entirely related to light.

Why?  I don't see how that follows.  I think that saying everything is entirely related to energy would work better.  Also, the full equation is
E2 = (mc2)2 + (cp)2 (see Lightarrow's good explanation here,)
so it might be more proper to say that all mass can be written as contributions from energy and momentum.  Light is a special case with zero mass, while most matter has non-zero mass.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 06:27:44 by JP »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #11 on: 11/10/2010 06:59:07 »
Yes, total energy is mass energy + kinetic energy, but kinetic energy is totally relativistic not mass... Not the rest mass. C is the relation of light to Spacetime in an absolute manner, C is constant... Even then, there is still C in the relativistic part of the energy...

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 07:20:45 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline JP

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #12 on: 11/10/2010 08:12:34 »
Sure, you can define relativistic mass, mr, in order to make E=mrc2 hold, but then you've just rewritten the above equation so that the particle velocity is absorbed into the mass term.  I'm still confused as to how this justifies your claim:
The only explanation for E=MC2 is that matter is entirely related to light.

I really don't understand how it's the only explanation for this.  Looking at the equation, I just see that mass is proportional to energy.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 08:14:15 by JP »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #13 on: 11/10/2010 21:40:37 »
I really don't understand how it's the only explanation for this.  Looking at the equation, I just see that mass is proportional to energy.

Thank you JP, it is a very insightful comment. At first glance, what you says look right but "C" is not a dimensionless constant, it is truly the speed of light...
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #14 on: 11/10/2010 21:55:06 »
see this: http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/accel/burke_prl_79_1626_97.pdf

A positron-electron pair can be produced by photons alone... How the gravitational field of the electron and the positron appeared from photons alone?  :)

How can they have predicted it? Because the problem is already solved but people are not looking at the right angle. E=MC2, light has no mass and a constant relative speed of C.
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 22:00:29 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #15 on: 11/10/2010 22:42:36 »
If I were to look at a particle ant-particle annihilation and it produced x number of particles then I would say those are the basic constituent's of matter but that is not what we see. We just see radiation.
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #16 on: 12/10/2010 00:20:55 »
Yes Ron, and check this:

p (the momentum of the photon) is related to its electromagnetic field frequency (or wavelength).

For a photon:
p = h/λ
E = p*c = h/λ*c , for a photon, its energy is entirely in its electromagnetic field

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity
 

My theory says that the electromagnetic energy is transfer into gravitational energy when there is cancellation of the electromagnetic waves (the waves are trapped or closed).

For a 2 photons total cancellation (all electromagnetic energy is transfer into “rest” mass), if the “rest” mass is made entirely of light, as I am assuming, the closed photons are still moving at C, rotating and spinning, but they appear to have a gravitational field (mass) but no electromagnetic field for an outside observer. What is very interesting is that both fixed referential frames, the outside observer and the center of the created particle, will have the same measurement of the speed of light C. Since the experience is about light and spacetime, there is no relativity because the speed V of light is the same for all fixed referential frames.

If we are in a world made of Spacetime and Light alone, there is no such thing as “rest” mass. Light has an energy momentum (p*c) and no rest mass. The rest mass (or if you prefer gravity) would appear from purely momentum energy.

For a 2 photons total cancellation having both an equivalent energy of M/2, where M is the final equivalent "rest" mass
The energy momentum in a nonrelativistic spacetime before and after cancellation should be equal (though the direction of the momentum are opposite, they should add together in a rotating wave (spherical in 3D) because photons are elementary particles, they cannot be annihilated!):

E= h/ʎ*c + h/ʎ*c = p*c + p*c (Before as photons) = p*c + p*c (after, as massive particles with no rest mass) = ˝ m*v*c + ˝ m*v*c = MC2

N.B.: Don't forget that the rest mass is nonexistent in a world made of light and spacetime, m appears from the transfer of electromagnetic energy fields cancellation into a gravitational energy field that is producing a kinetic mass. That's not the way we see it but that's the way we should see it because it comes from pure momentum of energy.
« Last Edit: 16/10/2010 07:00:57 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #17 on: 12/10/2010 04:38:09 »
it seems like time appears from the creation of a gravitational field, thus relativity.

If you are in one of the photons referential frame before cancellation, you have no time rate but you are still going through space, so space exist but there is no time rate. Space for you is linear because you travel at C wherever you go (you always take the shortest path). After cancellation, if the photon is a kind of standing wave (but still rotating and spinning at the speed of light, duality of wave-particle emerging), time appears instantly for the particle from infinitely small Δt0 to Δt of the relativistic spacetime we know (where Δt is the rate of passing time).

Time rate, as gravitation, comes from the acceleration of the energy momentum of photons (as vectors) rotating and spinning as a particle. If you accelerate in space, you accelerate all photons energy momentum you are made of, you will have a slower local time rate and you will feel gravity (or acceleration if you prefer). Relativity and m = infinity at V=C, is a proof that everything is made of light.

You cannot accelerate faster than light because you are made of light!!!

Gravity is simply the vectors of the accelerated momentum of photons (and it is still truly and electromagnetic field, with no effective charge (cancelled))
(static charges)
It means an elementary particle has a mass inversely proportional to its size...
« Last Edit: 23/10/2010 06:40:04 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline Geezer

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #18 on: 12/10/2010 07:16:22 »
This is an interesting discussion, but to avoid any confusion, I think it's best if we move this topic to the New Theories section.

Please send me a PM if you think this is inappropriate.

 
 

Offline JP

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #19 on: 12/10/2010 07:29:53 »
I really don't understand how it's the only explanation for this.  Looking at the equation, I just see that mass is proportional to energy.

Thank you JP, it is a very insightful comment. At first glance, what you says look right but "C" is not a dimensionless constant, it is truly the speed of light...

I never said it had to be dimensionless!  It certainly can be, if you measure mass in units of energy (high energy physics does this all the time)!  But regardless of units, its a constant, so the left hand side is proportional to the right.
 

Offline kenhikage

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #20 on: 12/10/2010 07:29:53 »
CPT, thank you for well articulating what I've been trying to get at in a couple of posts. My thinking, though, is that non-electromagnetic energy is the result of light losing momentum and matter is the result of light losing energy and momentum.

It seems to me the only thing that could slow down a photon would be running into other photons. Whenever would this be more likely then right after the big bang?

Obviously you understand the math better than I do, so thank you for this post.

Lastly, I have to say, I wonder if a singularity isn't a photon that has completely lost all of it's momentum and energy (as a result of the early collisions). Things tend to become infinite or zero when they reach C, as with singularities. So, if light stops...?
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #21 on: 12/10/2010 23:40:53 »
light never really stops...
« Last Edit: 16/10/2010 06:44:49 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #22 on: 13/10/2010 02:02:08 »
What do you think the frequency of the CMBR was at 10^6 years? Inflation was another mainstream invention to cover up their lack of knowledge. It's bull poop.
« Last Edit: 13/10/2010 02:10:57 by Ron Hughes »
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #23 on: 13/10/2010 02:46:57 »
The reference timeline they use is wrong because they don't use the photon as the elementary particle.

I would add that not only gravity but also quantization of energy has arise from the particles creation (with time and gravity) since the BigBang.

Here is another "big" proof of the well founded of this theory, i should have seen it much earlier...:

Matter-Antimatter annihilation!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation

If you accelerate enough a pair of positron-electron and collide them together, you can produce heavier particles. It seems to contradict my theory. Not at all, at collision, the positron-electron pair is still annihilated and produces photons. If the collision has a good enough symmetry, the photons accelerated energy momentum will produce heavier particles, because the photons total energy momentum in space is in the quantization range of a stable heavier particles creation, otherwise, they remain gamma photons: the true elementary particles (supposing we can call them "particles")...

The quantization information is stored in light itself, it is thus a property of light vs space (time information is stored in light, in its frequency i guess, thus the relativity of time vs Doppler effect)...

In fact, photons may have any frequencies if there is no preferential frame of reference (according to relativity and Doppler effect). For massive particles, it is not the case. Locally, they all have only finite energy states possible (quantum states). All massive particles are in fact relatively stable quantum states of the continuum of light. They appear from interaction between photons energy momentum. If two photons collide and a spherical wave, still traveling at the speed of light, appear in a stable state, a particle is created. Its gravity will arise from the acceleration in its linear momentum. Gravity has exactly the same momentum as the acceleration vector. It reconciles Quantum Theory with General Relativity.

In 2D space, you can see a massive particle as a rotating wave of a fixed number of wavelength, i would call it the primary quantum state number. The mass appears from the cancelled wave so the primary number can only be an integer of a wavelength (1, 2, 3, ...).

Black holes are only in primary states, only a gravitational field is maintained.. We now know that there is supermassive black holes at the center of most galaxies. They are probably the most stable particles in the Universe we know. There is a high probability that there is a type of low energy density particles in primal states. I highly suspect that this type of particles account for a very important part of Dark Matter because they should occur naturally in our Universe.

In a 2 photons cancellation, if these 2 photons did not cancelled their charges, the charge (static field) is inside the rotating wave. The simplest form of it is the electron and positron pair which possess opposite charges (one positive and the other negative). The electrostatic charge of a particle is it secondary quantum state and its gravitational energy momentum is its primary quantum state. The secondary quantum state can only be 0,+/-1, +/-2, +/-3...

If the primary number is 1 for the electron, using the energy of a photon having the energy of the electron mass (mc2=one wavelength), i calculated that its size should be about 3.86 x 10-13 m.

E = hc/λ = mc^2, λ = h/mc = 2*pi*R (for a circumference of one wavelength, primary number=1)

electron diameter = 2R = h/(pi*m*c) 

if the primary number is 2, its size would double to 7.72 x 10-13 m.

http://ag-physics.org/electron/  It totally agrees!!

Please read section 1 and 3 The "Zitterbewegung" and the Experimental Situation. I solved their problem... photons have no mass and they have a speed of c...

The electric charge associated energy momentum comes only from interactions with other particles and photons (ultimately, photons alone...).


« Last Edit: 03/06/2011 12:46:03 by CPT ArkAngel »
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #24 on: 13/10/2010 16:19:02 »
Is there no answer for the CMBR question? A guess would be fine.

In an annihilation, no matter how fast the particle pair are moving, the total energy released will be radiation.  There may be some short lived wave forms that the mainstream wants to call a particle but then these too turn. into radiation.
 

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Re: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #24 on: 13/10/2010 16:19:02 »

 

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