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Author Topic: Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?  (Read 108055 times)

Offline Geezer

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #50 on: 18/11/2010 06:05:48 »
Are you familiar with a more successful site called ''sciforums''?

Are you familiar with Dale Carnegie's book  - "How to Win Friends and Influence People"

http://www.dalecarnegie.com/golden_book.jsp?keycode=google06_Brand&WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=G_Brand&gclid=CPGXiNfYqaUCFQULbAodYh--Zw


Quote:

"You will learn how to:

Communicate with diplomacy and tact
Become a more persuasive communicator
Be an effective leader
Reduce stress
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #51 on: 18/11/2010 20:43:14 »
Not at all.

Are you familiar with a more successful site called ''sciforums''?

a) What's your definition of successful, exactly? Are talking quality or quantity? Should 'sciforums' now be recognised as a peer review body?
b) If you've got some amazing 'new' evidence that the whole of the respected scientific community doesn;t know about why not reference it here for us ignoramuses.

Well by successful, I mean with the amount of people who attend. Maybe not so much quality of posts.

There was a competition where a member BenTheMan who is a string theorist asked how matter could not be made of light. Something must of happened because he soon changed his mind and apologized saying matter can be made of light. There seems to be no mathematical reason why they can't.
 

Offline JP

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #52 on: 19/11/2010 11:58:57 »
Well by successful, I mean with the amount of people who attend. Maybe not so much quality of posts.

There was a competition where a member BenTheMan who is a string theorist asked how matter could not be made of light. Something must of happened because he soon changed his mind and apologized saying matter can be made of light. There seems to be no mathematical reason why they can't.

Regardless of what a user on another forum decided, mainstream science does not accept that all matter is made of light.  Also, this thread in particular was making a lot of very non-standard speculations on the nature of matter.  We have let threads linger on in the mainstream sections of the forum because they were good debate on the nature of matter and whether it could be made of light.  This wasn't a debate so much as a new theory being developed, so it was moved here. 

If you want mathematical reasons why such theories are a problem:

Light doesn't interact with itself; matter interacts with light.

The apparent sizes of particles and the wavelengths of light pose some problems (i.e. point-like particles).

The all-light theory would have to explain non-E&M forces, such as the weak and strong nuclear forces.

These are all experimental observations that are described by the standard model, but as far as I know cannot be explained by an all-matter-is-photons theory.  I'm sure there are others, but those are just off the top of my head.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #53 on: 19/11/2010 12:50:17 »
There was a competition where a member BenTheMan who is a string theorist asked how matter could not be made of light. Something must of happened because he soon changed his mind and apologized saying matter can be made of light. There seems to be no mathematical reason why they can't.

As JP has stated referencing (well just implying actually) another forum is not a respected source.
As for "BenTheMan who is a string theorist" - Are you having a laugh? Is that the renowned BenTheMan, PhD of CalTech???! ;D
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #54 on: 19/11/2010 12:59:23 »
Yes it is. Does it sound like I am joking?

As for speculative comments on other matters, I was not referring to those. I am referring to the well-applied concept that matter is made from light, and that scientists do recognize this. How exactly matter is made from light is not exactly known. But that is a matter of experiment.

You can make matter from light, and the light used to make that matter can be extracted. No matter what way you percieve it, matter is made from light.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #55 on: 19/11/2010 13:00:46 »
And I don't see how the Photon Theory would need to answer the strong force. That is a strange statement. Electro-strong theory has already been unified into a theory, so there is no correlation required further.
 

Offline JP

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #56 on: 19/11/2010 13:11:46 »
You can make matter from light, and the light used to make that matter can be extracted.

That's the argument that's constantly, and erroneously, made in these threads.  The more accurate statement is that matter is made from energy, and that in certain circumstances the energy in light can be changed into other particles.  In some cases, I can break light into an electron and a positron, but this hardly means that all light is made of electrons. 
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #57 on: 19/11/2010 13:11:47 »
Here is a seperate link if you don't trust BenTheMan

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/09/970918045841.htm
 

Offline JP

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #58 on: 19/11/2010 13:25:19 »
Some quotes from the article:

"Now physicists have succeeded in doing the opposite: converting energy in the form of light into matter"

"Converting energy into matter isn't completely new to physicists."

"The energy-to-matter conversion was made possible by the incredibly strong electromagnetic fields that the photon-photon collisions produced."

I guess you could say energy in the form of photons can be turned into matter in some special cases, but saying matter is made from light is misleading given what "made from" is usually taken to mean that if you zoom in with a microscope you'll see photons zipping around inside of any particle of matter.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #59 on: 19/11/2010 13:36:15 »
I guess you could say energy in the form of photons can be turned into matter in some special cases, but saying matter is made from light is misleading given what "made from" is usually taken to mean that if you zoom in with a microscope you'll see photons zipping around inside of any particle of matter.
Quite!
Especially in the context that we are in a thread called "Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?", don't ya think?!

Q'Clue,
Following the reductionist principle, physics supposes that the mechanism that makes both light and matter observable phenomena in our universe is one where (it is postulated that) at high enough energies all particles (matter, photons, et al) visible to us will be shown to coalesce into a common elemental genesis.

This is a long way from saying matter is, at its heart, light (photons).
« Last Edit: 19/11/2010 13:58:05 by peppercorn »
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #60 on: 19/11/2010 15:15:19 »
W
Some quotes from the article:

"Now physicists have succeeded in doing the opposite: converting energy in the form of light into matter"

"Converting energy into matter isn't completely new to physicists."

"The energy-to-matter conversion was made possible by the incredibly strong electromagnetic fields that the photon-photon collisions produced."

I guess you could say energy in the form of photons can be turned into matter in some special cases, but saying matter is made from light is misleading given what "made from" is usually taken to mean that if you zoom in with a microscope you'll see photons zipping around inside of any particle of matter.

Well let us address this. This is not a special case. All matter can be made to reduce back to the photon energy which created them, which is part of the conservation of charge. Photons are just an energy, and it is this same energy all matter can be created. Those particles which are borne of photon energy still ''carry'' the information about the photon even in their material states, or photon energy could not be conserved.

Matter transmutating inton light, and light into matter shows a direct correlation. The material required to make matter is simply energy, and as current physics seems to be hinting at, a photon is simply required for such a transformation. Question yourself exactly how all matter can in fact be reduced to gamma energy? It is not a coincidence. It is because the photon(s) required to make the matter is in fact the energy used to create new types of particles, which under the shadow of it all, behave and act differently to photons. This is why it is not always immediate to think of matter being made from photon energy, but the fact of the matter is that this seems to be correct.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #61 on: 19/11/2010 16:04:39 »
You know, Dirac once modelled the electron against his own theory. The electron would found to contain a zitter motion due to negative charge interacting with it from the vacuum. He also found that the electron was really a photon, but appeared to move a lot slower because of this zig zag motion through space - I know this is a little different, but its very plausible to find some kind of motion given to a photon to give the appearance of another particle. This is in regards to the comment about it being a fundamental constituent of all matter.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #62 on: 22/11/2010 12:01:26 »
So are we in agreement. All matter can be reduced back to photon energy?
 

Offline peppercorn

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #63 on: 22/11/2010 12:09:11 »
So are we in agreement. All matter can be reduced back to photon energy?
No.
To say 'reduced back' is misleading - and wrong.

Mass-energy_equivalence

'Equivalence' is an excellent mathematical description of what is really, physically observed.   Anything else is just word play on your part.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #64 on: 22/11/2010 18:07:48 »
So are we in agreement. All matter can be reduced back to photon energy?
No.
To say 'reduced back' is misleading - and wrong.

Mass-energy_equivalence

'Equivalence' is an excellent mathematical description of what is really, physically observed.   Anything else is just word play on your part.

Reduced back is not misleading. All material objects in the universe was borne of energy. Matter is but a concentrated energy, while energy is a diffused matter. Equivalence mearly states that they are fundamentally the same, that from matter you can get energy and energy from matter.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #65 on: 22/11/2010 18:08:53 »
Not to mention all matter can indeed be reduced back to photon energy in arrival with their antipartners. How else would one word this? I'd like to be taught.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #66 on: 22/11/2010 18:12:46 »
I did a little search on google. A result did come up.

This scientist does indeed proclaim all matter is made from light, and he says he explains why in his book. His name is Fred Alan Wolf

http://www.fredalanwolf.com/

''It will take us into the world of fundamental particles and how they are actually made from light. ''

Well, there is one scientist already. I have also linked to the page where scientists made matter from light, not light from matter, but is nothing but a consequence of E=Mc^2.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #67 on: 22/11/2010 22:42:49 »
Yet another circular thread, I see.  That's why I was pointing out your playing with words.
What, beyond what mainstream fund. physics already describes (including Equivalence), are you trying to claimed is not yet explained?  I can't see the ultimate point of all your arguments....  (?)
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #68 on: 23/11/2010 11:39:02 »
Yet another circular thread, I see.  That's why I was pointing out your playing with words.
What, beyond what mainstream fund. physics already describes (including Equivalence), are you trying to claimed is not yet explained?  I can't see the ultimate point of all your arguments....  (?)

If I am playing with words, then the scientist above is dabbing it with holy water.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #69 on: 23/11/2010 11:44:48 »
My point is however, scientists are catching on to the idea that matter is made of light. I am not playing with words here - that was a job of the OP when talking about ''fundamentals'' - my statement is clear, all matter when it comes into contact with antimatter turn into light, or reduce back into light, suggesting at one point all this matter was, was but energy. This is not a trick. A clown or Hawking is not going to jump out from behing the couch. I am deadly serious when I say this is what science is progressing towards. And HAS progressed to.

Radiation from light is a lot more complicated than E=Mc^2. In fact the equation is trivial in the sense you take into account all of matter - and how they can be made to reduce back to photons. These little bits of matter never started their lifetimes as matter. At one point somewhere there was enough concentration of energy which gave life to particles. Just so happens like a symmetry in nature antiparticles are created alongside normal particles, and every particle no matter what kind, subjected to their antipartner will reduce to photons.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #70 on: 23/11/2010 12:12:05 »
My point is however, scientists are catching on to the idea that matter is made of light. I am not playing with words here - that was a job of the OP when talking about ''fundamentals'' - my statement is clear, all matter when it comes into contact with antimatter turn into light, or reduce back into light, suggesting at one point all this matter was, was but energy. This is not a trick. A clown or Hawking is not going to jump out from behing the couch. I am deadly serious when I say this is what science is progressing towards. And HAS progressed to.

Radiation from light is a lot more complicated than E=Mc^2. In fact the equation is trivial in the sense you take into account all of matter - and how they can be made to reduce back to photons. These little bits of matter never started their lifetimes as matter. At one point somewhere there was enough concentration of energy which gave life to particles. Just so happens like a symmetry in nature antiparticles are created alongside normal particles, and every particle no matter what kind, subjected to their antipartner will reduce to photons.

I apologise for inadvertently 'throwing-you-into-the-same-boat' as the OP (which I kind'a did) - I see that you are looking at this with a rational eye.  I  would say, however, that you have (in places) given the impression that mainstream science has still to accept that the most likely form of the very early universe was one of a sea of energy, but by my understanding, this is by far the preferred view in the astrophysics community.

I am uncertain what extra development of these theories you are proposing we should consider - This is, afterall, the 'New Theories' board.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #71 on: 23/11/2010 12:17:47 »
My point is however, scientists are catching on to the idea that matter is made of light. I am not playing with words here - that was a job of the OP when talking about ''fundamentals'' - my statement is clear, all matter when it comes into contact with antimatter turn into light, or reduce back into light, suggesting at one point all this matter was, was but energy. This is not a trick. A clown or Hawking is not going to jump out from behing the couch. I am deadly serious when I say this is what science is progressing towards. And HAS progressed to.

Radiation from light is a lot more complicated than E=Mc^2. In fact the equation is trivial in the sense you take into account all of matter - and how they can be made to reduce back to photons. These little bits of matter never started their lifetimes as matter. At one point somewhere there was enough concentration of energy which gave life to particles. Just so happens like a symmetry in nature antiparticles are created alongside normal particles, and every particle no matter what kind, subjected to their antipartner will reduce to photons.

I apologise for inadvertently 'throwing-you-into-the-same-boat' as the OP (which I kind'a did) - I see that you are looking at this with a rational eye.  I  would say, however, that you have (in places) given the impression that mainstream science has still to accept that the most likely form of the very early universe was one of a sea of energy, but by my understanding, this is by far the preferred view in the astrophysics community.

I am uncertain what extra development of these theories you are proposing we should consider - This is, afterall, the 'New Theories' board.

There remains a problem. There is no model to date in the standard model which suggests the universe appeared in a flood of photons. To say photon is fundamental is like saying a quark-gluon sea did not occur. It's tit for tat between the two ideas. Personally, I think there was certainly a phase transition from photons into matter post big bang. When is open to speculation.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #72 on: 23/11/2010 18:20:05 »
Doesn't that assume the standard model is the only answer? It seems to me there must be a possibility that it is entirely wrong if it must depend on the existence of the graviton, Higgs and virtual particles.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #73 on: 23/11/2010 18:25:09 »
Doesn't that assume the standard model is the only answer? It seems to me there must be a possibility that it is entirely wrong if it must depend on the existence of the graviton, Higgs and virtual particles.

That's exactly why millions is being spent on looking for the Higgs.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
« Reply #74 on: 23/11/2010 20:07:31 »
Doesn't that assume the standard model is the only answer? It seems to me there must be a possibility that it is entirely wrong if it must depend on the existence of the graviton, Higgs and virtual particles.
Yes.
 

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Could the photon be the sole elementary particle?
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