The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Should children be vaccinated?  (Read 12541 times)

Kiren

  • Guest
Should children be vaccinated?
« on: 11/10/2010 09:30:04 »
Kiren asked the Naked Scientists:
   
Hi, I heard your show last night, on BBC radio 5 and I have to say you were really good!

As your a scientist, I wanted to ask your personal opinion about the MMR vaccine.

It's quite a controverisal jab, but do you think babies, and young children should be vaccinated?
 
Thankyou! :-)
 
Kiren

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 11/10/2010 09:30:04 by _system »


 

SteveFish

  • Guest
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #1 on: 12/10/2010 01:58:04 »
I am old enough to remember many of the diseases that we don't have to worry about now because of vaccination. For MMR, I had measles, mumps, but thankfully not rubella. I got chicken pox and my best friend has walked on crutches for all but the first five years of his life because of polio and several other children that I knew also got this scourge. I now have to take an expensive vaccine to prevent getting shingles which is the very painful recurrence of the chicken pox I had as a child.

Why would anyone not want to avoid these diseases? Further, contributing to the pool of immune children will slow or stop the spread of an epidemic that would affect those who are not vaccinated. I see this as an ethical question. Steve
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8646
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #2 on: 12/10/2010 07:12:53 »
MMR is only controversial because of a severely flawed report written by a man who had shares in a company that made a competing vaccine.
There never was any scientific evidence that it caused the problems he said it did.
Obviously, there are risks with any sort of treatment but, as Steve has rightly pointed out, the risks from the diseases are much bigger.
 

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #3 on: 12/10/2010 07:50:41 »
I completely agree with Steve and BC. I was "vaccinated" naturally against these diseases - the hard way (I had all of them) but I was fortunate to survive.

BC is quite correct in pointing out that the "science" that triggered this so called controversy was, at the least, severely flawed. What may be even worse is that many print and electronic media organizations seized on this simply to sell their products, without any regard for the consequences of their actions. They will claim they were "informing" the public, but as they were ignorant of the facts, they were really misinforming the public.

As a result, a large number of parents have been misled into believing they are putting their children at risk by having them vaccinated when they are exposing them to far greater risks by not having them vaccinated.

It's interesting that the media will get sued if they slander an individual, but they are allowed to slander good science all they want in the interests of "free speech".
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #4 on: 12/10/2010 08:04:53 »
I've been vaccinated for rubella but have no antibodies, I also have had rubella and still i have no antibodies. so vaccination does not suit us all. In fact some have died after being vaccinated. An individual decision should be allowed depending on the type of vax and the purpose.
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #5 on: 12/10/2010 21:42:24 »
I've been vaccinated for rubella but have no antibodies, I also have had rubella and still i have no antibodies. so vaccination does not suit us all. In fact some have died after being vaccinated. An individual decision should be allowed depending on the type of vax and the purpose.

If you had Rubella but not antibodies you would most likely be dead.
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8646
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #6 on: 12/10/2010 22:05:55 »
It is important to accept that some people are killed by vaccinations- in just the same way that some are killed by peanuts or bee stings.
But it is also important to say that the risks from vaccination are small compared to the risk if people do not get vaccinated.

Individuals should be permitted to make their own choices; but they should do so on the basis of the real facts not on the basis of misinformation spread by the media in a cynical effort to boost circulation at the cost of other people's health.

An'd I agree with Variola- It's very hard to see how you could have got over rubella without antibodies. If your immune system didn't control it, what did?
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #7 on: 12/10/2010 22:53:25 »
It is important to accept that some people are killed by vaccinations- in just the same way that some are killed by peanuts or bee stings.
But it is also important to say that the risks from vaccination are small compared to the risk if people do not get vaccinated.

Individuals should be permitted to make their own choices; but they should do so on the basis of the real facts not on the basis of misinformation spread by the media in a cynical effort to boost circulation at the cost of other people's health.

An'd I agree with Variola- It's very hard to see how you could have got over rubella without antibodies. If your immune system didn't control it, what did?

Yes I agree with you about vaccination, it should be decided whether to have vaccination with all the correct
information freely available. it should not be forced upon us but it should be a careful decision based on reliable and truthful information.

yes i have had all the childhood illnesses, even though I have been vaccinated against them all prior to having them including measles and rubella.

Because I had had rubella as a very young child and was last immunized against it in my teens I was very surprised to find that I do not have antibodies for this disease today (still). I'm not unique here, finding many people who have had immunization but have no antibodies for the disease still. a mystery but very true.
 I have only found one other person who is the same. Has had the disease pulled through but still has no antibodies.
I have found others who have been vaccinated against disease which was only a false sense of immunity, never been tested to confirm the vaccination was effective. only to find at a later stage the vaccination was useless to them.

What controlled it? You tell me, but I am here as proof. this is true.

...........is it possible to be born with antibodies then after vaccination it is counteracted, canceling antibodies?
 

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #8 on: 13/10/2010 07:21:55 »
I'm no expert in this field, but I think Variola is correct. If you were infected with Rubella and you didn't produce, or already have antibodies, it would have killed you.

 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #9 on: 13/10/2010 07:32:16 »
Obviously you are no expert but what exactly are you saying?


Quote
Even if you have had a rubella immunisation, or have had rubella infection, there is still a small chance that your body has not made enough antibodies against the rubella virus to protect you. The only way to check whether the immunisation has worked is to have a blood test. This checks for rubella antibodies.
http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Rubella-%28German-Measles%29.htm

I'm not the only person to survive rubella.

I was immunised for all childhood diseases but still i got them all.
« Last Edit: 13/10/2010 07:53:42 by echochartruse »
 

Offline peppercorn

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1466
    • View Profile
    • solar
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #10 on: 13/10/2010 10:24:19 »
Because I had had rubella as a very young child and was last immunized against it in my teens I was very surprised to find that I do not have antibodies for this disease today (still). I'm not unique here, finding many people who have had immunization but have no antibodies for the disease.

What evidence do you have that you no longer have these antibodies?
Any person who survived Rubella must have formed antibodies otherwise they would have not survived - QED.   Their bodies will continue to produce them for life.
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #11 on: 13/10/2010 10:54:09 »
As a result, a large number of parents have been misled into believing they are putting their children at risk by having them vaccinated when they are exposing them to far greater risks by not having them vaccinated.

Also, while you might make the argument that since your own child is your dependent so you can make some decisions for them, you're also reducing herd immunity, which prevents outbreaks from occurring.  There are some children who, due to allergies or other complications, can't get vaccinated.  They rely on herd immunity to prevent themselves from being infected.  So by not vaccinating your children, you're putting other people's children at risk. 
 

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1503
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #12 on: 13/10/2010 12:11:04 »
Hold on everyone - If Echo was very very young when she had rubella, it's possible that she was carrying antibodies from her mother that fought it off, and so her own immune system didn't learn to recognise it.  Of course, this only applies until you're ~6 months old.
 

Offline JP

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3366
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #13 on: 13/10/2010 12:17:05 »
Because I had had rubella as a very young child and was last immunized against it in my teens I was very surprised to find that I do not have antibodies for this disease today (still). I'm not unique here, finding many people who have had immunization but have no antibodies for the disease.

What evidence do you have that you no longer have these antibodies?
Any person who survived Rubella must have formed antibodies otherwise they would have not survived - QED.   Their bodies will continue to produce them for life.

Not that this should be used as an argument against vaccines, but aren't there rare instances of people getting the same virus twice?  Chicken pox is the usual culprit I hear about: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chickenpox/Pages/Introduction.aspx  

Not that this really has anything to do with vaccinations being a good idea or not...
 

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #14 on: 13/10/2010 21:00:20 »
Obviously you are no expert but what exactly are you saying?



What I said was "If you were infected with Rubella and you didn't produce, or already have antibodies, it would have killed you."

I don't believe you can survive the disease without antibodies. Do you believe otherwise? ( BTW - I did not say you retained those antibodies.)
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #15 on: 13/10/2010 22:13:59 »
Quote
is it possible to be born with antibodies then after vaccination it is counteracted, canceling antibodies? 

No, making antibodies is a bit like making an impression in cement, once that imprint is there, it is there for life, hence you do not generally get the same disease twice. It is possible that the original infection did not generate enough of an immune response, particularly if the infection is mild, but it would be very unusual for a wild type pathogen not to generate a good immune response. Some vaccines, like Diptheria have to be given more than once in successive shots to ensure a good immune response,  but most of the more widely used vaccines are either given multiple times or are good enough to generate a strong response.

How do you know you have no antibodies to these diseases?
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #16 on: 13/10/2010 23:32:39 »
There's certainly a test for rubella immunity, I believe it's quite routine to test women who are trying for/expecting a baby for immunity to rubella (if you're not immune to rubella it's a good plan to get a booster before getting pregnant, if already pregnant a very good plan to try to avoid possible infection...*).

See:
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1104.aspx?CategoryID=54&SubCategoryID=137
Foetal rubella is Bad News.

Immunity to rubella appears not to be permanent in all cases - the immune system can "forget" about it.

So possibly echo is referring to a negative rubella immunity test (not, I think, the same as "no antibodies", so much as "insufficient antibodies for full protection"). Is that right, echo?



*Such as your own or other people's unvaccinated children.
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #17 on: 14/10/2010 14:50:39 »
Ben V and Rosy are possibly correct. I was very young. I then had the childhood vax, all of them including rubella and the last at 18yrs. then in my late 20's i had immunity test to find "I had no antibodies" was what I was told and was also told it is not rare for this to happen even after you have the disease and pull through.

Possibly the same with measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc I had them all even after being vaxed against them.

Still today i see children who have been vaxed come down with the disease or virus, then pass it onto others who have been vaxed also.

How can this happen?

Its not people who are not vaccinated but people who are vaccinated getting the very same disease they would expect to be immune to.

In this country if your not vaccinated you cant attend school.
« Last Edit: 14/10/2010 15:00:19 by echochartruse »
 

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1503
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #18 on: 14/10/2010 16:14:14 »
Ben V and Rosy are possibly correct. I was very young. I then had the childhood vax, all of them including rubella and the last at 18yrs. then in my late 20's i had immunity test to find "I had no antibodies" was what I was told and was also told it is not rare for this to happen even after you have the disease and pull through.

Possibly the same with measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc I had them all even after being vaxed against them.

Still today i see children who have been vaxed come down with the disease or virus, then pass it onto others who have been vaxed also.

How can this happen?

Its not people who are not vaccinated but people who are vaccinated getting the very same disease they would expect to be immune to.

In this country if your not vaccinated you cant attend school.
It sounds like you have a very unusual immmune system - one that responds to a pathogen but doesn't "learn" about it.  This would mean that every time you get an illness, it will be as bad as the first time.  Are you prone to colds and flu?  It also would mean you have no protection against infection.  Could this be a T-cell problem?
 

SteveFish

  • Guest
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #19 on: 14/10/2010 18:30:34 »
The immune system is very complicated. It consist of several overlapping systems and its responses to disease can be quite variable in different individuals. Chicken Pox is a good vaccination example. I just did some checking and this vaccine fails 10% to 30% of the time depending on the batch and country where it is used. Even so, only 5% of the failures get a serious case, so there is partial immunity. Some children loose their immunity in a few years while in 90% immunization to Chicken Pox lasts for more than 20 years. All children who can tolerate it should be immunized to protect them and improve herd immunity. Steve
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8646
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #20 on: 14/10/2010 20:02:10 »
I may be mistaken, but I thought that the reason you don't get chicken pox twice was that you never got rid of it.
The virus, so I understand, goes into hiding in the nerve cells.
That's why, when the immune system is impaired for some reason, it can flare up again as shingles and why shingles only affects a definite area of the skin- it's the area fed from the nerve(s) that the virus is hiding in.

If you didn't have the antibodies then it wouldn't be kept in hiding this way. You would get full blown chicken pox again.
I also though that the other pox viruses acted similarly- you didn't get them twice because you never got rid of them the first time.
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #21 on: 14/10/2010 22:47:20 »

Immunity to rubella appears not to be permanent in all cases - the immune system can "forget" about it.

How?? There is a vast difference between low IgG levels for Rubella, and having no immunity to it at all.

[quote author=BenV
It sounds like you have a very unusual immmune system - one that responds to a pathogen but doesn't "learn" about it.  This would mean that every time you get an illness, it will be as bad as the first time.  Are you prone to colds and flu?  It also would mean you have no protection against infection.  Could this be a T-cell problem?
[/quote]

If that was the case then Echo would get the same disease every time there was contact, we are infected with the Rubella virus, and others countless times but we are not aware of it because our immune system dispatches it. I think, if Echo did have such an unusual immune system, there would be significantly more illness and this would be a red flag to the healthcare.
Plasma B cell lineage usually circulates in the body for a long time, but depending on the virus, boosters are used to 'fine tune' the immune response to the particular virus and to strengthen it.
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #22 on: 14/10/2010 22:52:03 »
I may be mistaken, but I thought that the reason you don't get chicken pox twice was that you never got rid of it.
The virus, so I understand, goes into hiding in the nerve cells.
That's why, when the immune system is impaired for some reason, it can flare up again as shingles and why shingles only affects a definite area of the skin- it's the area fed from the nerve(s) that the virus is hiding in.

If you didn't have the antibodies then it wouldn't be kept in hiding this way. You would get full blown chicken pox again.
I also though that the other pox viruses acted similarly- you didn't get them twice because you never got rid of them the first time.

Yup the virus enters a latency phase, and likes to hide in around the T4 area of the spine, the immune system represses it and keeps it latent, but sometimes a weaker immune system allows the virus to grown and multiply, hence often shingles starts on the back or trunk.
 

Offline echochartruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #23 on: 18/10/2010 01:00:46 »
It sounds like you have a very unusual immune system - one that responds to a pathogen but doesn't "learn" about it.  This would mean that every time you get an illness, it will be as bad as the first time.  Are you prone to colds and flu?  It also would mean you have no protection against infection.  Could this be a T-cell problem?

I suffered badly as a child. I'm a fighter. since changing lifestyle, eating right etc.
I have not had a cold for over 5 years (that might be bad!) I don't immunize for colds.
No Diseases, very good health now. - thank you

These vaccines are created with good intentions but also money/profit is concerned so there has to be some doubt in everyones mind. No vaccine will give you permanent immunity. Not all vaccines are damaging to everyone. Not all people will die from the virus.

I would suggest to anyone/everyone to investigate the vaccine and speak with your doctor prior to vaccination. Vaccines are not pure and can often contain animal virus, pig virus, bird virus and now some talk about cancer cells included in vaccines. You should know as much info prior to vaccination and have a good doctor who can advise correctly.
I'm not trying to scare or deter people from vaccination just to be aware. Vaccines do not agree with everyone and just because you are vaccinated doesn't mean you have the antibodies.

Over 200 new vaccines in the pipeline, vaccination should be voluntary.

« Last Edit: 18/10/2010 23:09:28 by echochartruse »
 

Offline Variola

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1063
  • Everyone should beware of The Pox...
    • View Profile
Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #24 on: 21/10/2010 13:34:49 »
Quote
I would suggest to anyone/everyone to investigate the vaccine and speak with your doctor prior to vaccination. Vaccines are not pure and can often contain animal virus, pig virus, bird virus and now some talk about cancer cells included in vaccines. You should know as much info prior to vaccination and have a good doctor who can advise correctly.
I'm not trying to scare or deter people from vaccination just to be aware. Vaccines do not agree with everyone and just because you are vaccinated doesn't mean you have the antibodies.
 

What absolute claptrap. I take up your point of not trying to scare or deter people, I think that is EXACTLY what you are doing.
Vaccine contains the viruses they are vaccinating against, they are under strict control and supervisions, more so now than ever with the advent of HIV.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Should children be vaccinated?
« Reply #24 on: 21/10/2010 13:34:49 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums