# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?  (Read 59472 times)

#### Geezer

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #100 on: 31/01/2011 18:37:54 »
QC,

So how do you define the speed of light if there is no such ting as time? Come to that, how do you define any speed without using time?

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #101 on: 31/01/2011 18:47:19 »
QC,

So how do you define the speed of light if there is no such ting as time? Come to that, how do you define any speed without using time?

As I said, for all practical purposes, time is a very useful man-made device. It helps us with our equations, how to catalogue our events. I never said it was never used. General Relativity paints a different picture to the world we have become akin to. It is different to the world we set our equations to, where time was invariant within the equations of motion, and the passing of events.

You'll just have to learn to understand, two worlds exist right now. Both are contradictory, and the only machines stuck in the middle trying to comprehend the two are ourselves.

#### yor_on

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #102 on: 31/01/2011 18:48:34 »
Your heartbeats are no illusion QC :)

And they will produce the same amount no matter what you do. Assuming, for example, one million heartbeats to one life. then that is the 'duration' taken under all circumstances, traveling near light, being on Earth, or at a neutron star, assuming that one could survive such of course:)

That's what relativity says about 'durations' and 'times arrow'.

That, your own 'room time geometry', aka Frame of reference always will present you with the same durations. So no, it's not an illusion to me, but neither is a 'quanta', or a 'flow'. To me they all seem to come with how you define what you look at, and from where you look.

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #103 on: 31/01/2011 18:50:26 »
Your heartbeats are no illusion QC :)

And they will produce the same amount no matter what you do. Assuming, for example, one million heartbeats to one life. then that is the 'duration' taken under all circumstances, traveling near light, being on Earth, or at a neutron star, assuming that one could survive such of course:)

That's what relativity says about 'durations' and 'times arrow'.

That, your own 'room time geometry', aka Frame of reference always will present you with the same durations. So no, it's not an illusion to me, but neither is a 'quanta', or a 'flow'. To me they all seem to come with how you define what you look at, and from where you look.

...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one.

Albert Einstein

#### yor_on

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #104 on: 31/01/2011 18:58:32 »
To get to it being a 'illusion' I will have to stop looking at what I actually experience and instead exchange it for other 'time definitions'. But doing so will not change the amount of heartbeats, or my expiration date, as I actually experience it. There is a difference between conceptualizing that 'times arrow' differs as compared to others, with speed and mass, and looking at what's really happening to yourself. Knowing that others 'arrows' may magnify or contract relative yours does not change your own duration.

And so we comes back to what you can measure, and what you can know conceptually only :)

#### simplified

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #105 on: 31/01/2011 19:07:57 »
Your heartbeats are no illusion QC :)

And they will produce the same amount no matter what you do. Assuming, for example, one million heartbeats to one life. then that is the 'duration' taken under all circumstances, traveling near light, being on Earth, or at a neutron star, assuming that one could survive such of course:)

That's what relativity says about 'durations' and 'times arrow'.

That, your own 'room time geometry', aka Frame of reference always will present you with the same durations. So no, it's not an illusion to me, but neither is a 'quanta', or a 'flow'. To me they all seem to come with how you define what you look at, and from where you look.

...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one.

Albert Einstein

Liar opinion is illusion too.

#### yor_on

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #106 on: 31/01/2011 19:11:34 »
Let me put it this way. In the twin experiment we have those twins meeting again, after one having taken a really speedy tour through the universe. When they meet one will be provably 'older' biologically. But, let me ask you. do you think any of them found their heartbeats changing relative their respective 'frames of reference'? If you think the durations experienced was a illusion shouldn't they do that? So your own unique 'room time geometry' will present you with one, defined, duration, no matter what you do. So the 'arrow' do exist, well as I see it, furthermore rather 'unchangingly' from your own measurable plane.

That you can't say the same about the universe in general is another thing. But from your perspective traveling close to light it will not be your 'durations' that have changed, any measurement you make will tell you the same thing. That da*ed universe is the one speeding up, not you :)

#### Geezer

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #107 on: 31/01/2011 19:16:11 »
...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one.

Albert Einstein

Ironic that he talked a lot about the speed of light, don't you think?

Also, as atoms can spontaneously change state, if there is no such time as time, does that mean they are in both states simultaneously? (I probably should not use the words simultaneous and spontaneous, because they both imply that time is real.)

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #108 on: 31/01/2011 19:21:22 »
...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one.

Albert Einstein

Ironic that he talked a lot about the speed of light, don't you think?

Also, as atoms can spontaneously change state, if there is no such time as time, does that mean they are in both states simultaneously? (I probably should not use the words simultaneous and spontaneous, because they both imply that time is real.)

Why didn't you just say superpositioning :)

Einstein said that in relativity, the lifes of things, like particles that whizz across the galaxy to even our mortal lifetimes are all smeared out from past to the future. They are all frozen in time.

It's not that a particle exists simultaneously at the same time. The lifetime of a particle is smeared out over an eternal present. The eternal present is specifically chosen here because as we have seen, past and future are devoid of a true meaning in relativity.

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #109 on: 31/01/2011 19:24:16 »

Ironic that he talked a lot about the speed of light, don't you think?

Ironic, or just being choosey? What other language would we use?

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #110 on: 31/01/2011 19:29:52 »

#### simplified

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #111 on: 31/01/2011 19:35:56 »

Ironic that he talked a lot about the speed of light, don't you think?

Ironic, or just being choosey? What other language would we use?
If you will create one useful thing then we shall believe in your some useless  things too. But you have not made.

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #112 on: 31/01/2011 19:38:05 »

Ironic that he talked a lot about the speed of light, don't you think?

Ironic, or just being choosey? What other language would we use?
If you will create one useful thing then we shall believe in your some useless  things too. But you have not made.

Why the hostility, and what kind of useful thing did you have in mind? I didn't make relativity theory, the mathematical assertions I speak of where derived purely from the soil of theoretical physics. If you don't like it, tough. I don't need to get my head around this. The only person loosing out will be yourself in the end of the day.

#### Geezer

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #113 on: 31/01/2011 19:40:17 »

Ironic that he talked a lot about the speed of light, don't you think?

Ironic, or just being choosey? What other language would we use?

I don't know what language he should have used, but I do know that the term "speed" is utterly meanlingless without a definition for time.

Talking about the speed of anything and also saying that there is no such thing as time is pure contradiction.

#### yor_on

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #114 on: 31/01/2011 19:45:36 »
Yes, if you apply a conceptual outlook at 'Time' you will find that it somehow is directly connected to what and where you do/are. So 'Time' as such is, conceptually looking, of no exact definition/duration for SpaceTime. It's like we all existed in a clear sea, with all of us coloring the water differently depending on what we are doing relative someone else, the colors being our 'respective general time' when compared against each other, with the difference that those colors do not mix together.

But if we work after what each and one of us can measure in reality, then your duration will be as I said, the exact same, no matter what you do. Without that I would agree with you in that the arrow should be an illusion. And in a way, conceptually, it seems to be. But against it you have those unchanging durations I'm discussing.

#### Geezer

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #115 on: 31/01/2011 19:49:52 »
with all of us coloring the water differently

Look at me! I'm coloring the water yellow

(sorry!)

#### yor_on

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #116 on: 31/01/2011 19:50:41 »
:)

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #117 on: 31/01/2011 19:54:21 »

Ironic that he talked a lot about the speed of light, don't you think?

Ironic, or just being choosey? What other language would we use?

I don't know what language he should have used, but I do know that the term "speed" is utterly meanlingless without a definition for time.

Talking about the speed of anything and also saying that there is no such thing as time is pure contradiction.

I know.

I have stated time and time again, especially in this thread that relativity, notably GR is purely contradictory to our everyday experiences. Therefore it should be no surprise Einstein said his theory dictated we sense an illusion we call time.

#### yor_on

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #118 on: 31/01/2011 20:08:15 »
Well, I beg to differ there QC.
But it is strange.

And that I can agree on :)

#### simplified

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #119 on: 31/01/2011 20:16:32 »
Let me put it this way. In the twin experiment we have those twins meeting again, after one having taken a really speedy tour through the universe. When they meet one will be provably 'older' biologically. But, let me ask you. do you think any of them found their heartbeats changing relative their respective 'frames of reference'? If you think the durations experienced was a illusion shouldn't they do that? So your own unique 'room time geometry' will present you with one, defined, duration, no matter what you do. So the 'arrow' do exist, well as I see it, furthermore rather 'unchangingly' from your own measurable plane.

That you can't say the same about the universe in general is another thing. But from your perspective traveling close to light it will not be your 'durations' that have changed, any measurement you make will tell you the same thing. That da*ed universe is the one speeding up, not you :)
Einstein has created some useful things therefore we trust in his useless things.

#### Geezer

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #120 on: 31/01/2011 20:18:55 »
I have stated time and time again, especially in this thread that relativity, notably GR is purely contradictory to our everyday experiences. Therefore it should be no surprise Einstein said his theory dictated we sense an illusion we call time.

But that's my point. You keep referring to time, and yet you maintain there is no such thing. If there is no such thing, we can't use any terms that rely on time's existence.

When you can establish an alternative to "time" and explain how we can use that to explain some of the phenomena we observe or how that might be a benefit science, people might take you seriously.

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #121 on: 31/01/2011 22:19:39 »
I have stated time and time again, especially in this thread that relativity, notably GR is purely contradictory to our everyday experiences. Therefore it should be no surprise Einstein said his theory dictated we sense an illusion we call time.

But that's my point. You keep referring to time, and yet you maintain there is no such thing. If there is no such thing, we can't use any terms that rely on time's existence.

When you can establish an alternative to "time" and explain how we can use that to explain some of the phenomena we observe or how that might be a benefit science, people might take you seriously.

''Then again, who can ever have time, when we can never take time.''

The Merovingian

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #122 on: 31/01/2011 22:35:46 »
Anyway, the very fact that I use time in my language, is a reference itself that Einstein was right, strengthening his opinion that time is the ultimate illusion, and one which is of a psychological makeup. We cannot escape time in our makeup, it will always be part of our language, for what good would it be not to use such a description, for beings like ourselves that are so caught up in the moment?

#### Geezer

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #123 on: 01/02/2011 00:58:52 »
Anyway, the very fact that I use time in my language, is a reference itself that Einstein was right, strengthening his opinion that time is the ultimate illusion, and one which is of a psychological makeup. We cannot escape time in our makeup, it will always be part of our language, for what good would it be not to use such a description, for beings like ourselves that are so caught up in the moment?

AFAIK Einstein never came up with any testable theory on this. As such, it's simply speculation which has no practical benefit to science.

#### Bill S

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #124 on: 01/02/2011 02:19:35 »
Quote from: yor-on
Just because your heartbeats appear to remain constant in your F of R does not mean they are not an illusion, albeit a persistent one.

Quote from: Geezer
Talking about the speed of anything and also saying that there is no such thing as time is pure contradiction.

Surely it is a contradiction only if you insist that motion exists. If the cosmos is infinite and unchanging (like Barbour's Platonia) then change, motion, speed and time are all illusions.  Of course, they are illusions that are absolutely necessary for us to make sense of our restricted view of reality.  Without these persistent illusions we would be unable to make sense of our world.

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##### What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #124 on: 01/02/2011 02:19:35 »