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Author Topic: What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?  (Read 61360 times)

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #50 on: 18/01/2011 22:44:21 »
That's the stubborn illusion of reality Einstein often talked about. Past and future seem to be stubbornly persistent illusions - motion is measured with our equations, but the truth and crux of the matter is that a unified approach will not use the classical postulations of equations of motion. They will adhere to support the framework of relativity.

How can you say it's wrong to use motion to measure time when you apparently have no idea how to meausure it?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #51 on: 18/01/2011 22:50:05 »
I say it's wrong, as in it being a wrong approach. I say wrong approach, because any other approach at the moment would not fit the requirements of the theory.

Of course, it may turn out we no longer will require the classical constraints of the theory on time evolution. It may turn out that quantum theory develops an understanding of what we experience, and the quite obvious contradictory statements of General Relativity.
 

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #52 on: 18/01/2011 23:04:49 »
Of course, it may turn out we no longer will require the classical constraints of the theory on time evolution.

Oh! So now you are saying that we are still constrained by the classical theory. You were only speculating that the macroscopic theory of time may have to change because it is inconsistent with the quantum view.

So, there was nothing wrong with Simplified's statement after all.

 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #53 on: 18/01/2011 23:15:12 »
No it is wrong. My last post is stating if theory was wrong.

That is like saying a hypothetical Tom would be right also, when he states that electrons don't exist as a wave function round the nuclei of atoms... because there is that chance theory is wrong. Science doesn't operate like that, usually we say interpretations that don't fit theory are wrong, not the other way around until experimentation proves otherwise.
 

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #54 on: 18/01/2011 23:40:54 »
No it is wrong. My last post is stating if theory was wrong.

That is like saying a hypothetical Tom would be right also, when he states that electrons don't exist as a wave function round the nuclei of atoms... because there is that chance theory is wrong. Science doesn't operate like that, usually we say interpretations that don't fit theory are wrong, not the other way around until experimentation proves otherwise.

Yes, but that's all a big bum steer, so let's try to stick to the question at hand.

Other than repeatedly insisting it is wrong, you have failed to demonstrate that there is anything wrong with the statement "Time is a function of motion." You have even said that we are constrained by the classical theory of time.

You can't simply throw out a theory that works perfectly well and fail to replace it with anything! Clearly, you don't know much about how real science works, because if we did that every time we found an inconsistency, science would be nothing but chaos.

What I think you should be saying is that there is an apparent inconsistency between the quantum views and the macroscopic views. That does not mean that any view is wrong. It just means that we have not yet resolved the inconsistencies. (BTW, it's quite possible we never will.)

Somebody might come along with a great theory next week that stands both the macroscopic views and the quantum views on their heads, but even if they do, we'll continue to use the old models for a considerable time before we discard them entirely.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #55 on: 18/01/2011 23:54:11 »
Yes, ok Geezer, I've not explained myself. So all of this:

We are not sure you can in General Relativity. Matter fields vanish, and what is left is an energy field which does not change at all. This is the Wheeler de Witt equation.

In quantum theory, it looks like an approach to this is to measure motion as static frames of tiny little moments called the Planck Time. In theory, time does not have flow, but is a succession of tiny beginnings and ends, each existing for the smallest frame of time possible, and so does not contain a motion as such, not a continuous one any way.

That's the stubborn illusion of reality Einstein often talked about. Past and future seem to be stubbornly persistent illusions - motion is measured with our equations, but the truth and crux of the matter is that a unified approach will not use the classical postulations of equations of motion. They will adhere to support the framework of relativity.


...Was for nothing at all then? Sheesh.
 
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #56 on: 18/01/2011 23:54:46 »
I can provide references if that would be more illuminating?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #57 on: 19/01/2011 00:01:23 »
There are a great array of papers on time here. Some of them touch on the topic that time ceases to exist where movement is involved, others are wholey dedicated to the topic. There is also a paper on the topic of no flow existing in time, which leads to the conclusions of a quantized time.

 http://www.fqxi.org/community/essay/winners/2008.1

These are all the references one needs.
« Last Edit: 19/01/2011 00:21:14 by QuantumClue »
 

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #58 on: 19/01/2011 00:10:15 »
There are a great array of papers on time here. Some of them touch on the topic that time ceases to exist where movement is involved, others are wholey dedicated to the topic. There is also a paper on the topic of no flow existing in time, which leads to the conclusions of a quantized time.

http://www.fqxi.org/community/essay/winners/2009.1

These are all the references one needs.

I'm disappointed you are not able to explain this for yourself. You seemed so adamant in your assertions.

Do any of them explain how your watch, or the clock in your PC measure time without measuring motion?
« Last Edit: 19/01/2011 00:13:03 by Geezer »
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #59 on: 19/01/2011 00:11:31 »
A few of the papers, for the last time Geezer, explain that moving clocks cease to exist - that is quantum clocks, objects moving relative to other things.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #60 on: 19/01/2011 00:19:18 »
You edited your message since my most recent with:

I'm disappointed you are not able to explain this for yourself. You seemed so adamant in your assertions.

I have explained myself Geezer. It is you who is refusing to listen.

 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #61 on: 19/01/2011 00:20:56 »
I've posted the wrong link, bare with me: http://www.fqxi.org/community/essay/winners/2008.1
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #62 on: 19/01/2011 00:22:06 »
What is ultimately wrong in physics, is the topic url I posted before, its been edited. The url is now on the nature of time.
 

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #63 on: 19/01/2011 00:26:47 »
A few of the papers, for the last time Geezer, explain that moving clocks cease to exist - that is quantum clocks, objects moving relative to other things.

Yes, but who's talking about quantum clocks? You didn't limit your loud assertion to the time measured by quantum clocks. All you said was that time is not a function of motion. Not only that, but you don't seem to be able to provide any ideas about how to measure time, other than say that we can't.

When you say "for the last time", can I take it that you are giving up rather than simply admitting you made a sweeping statement when you could have agreed that a qualified statement might have been a lot more appropriate? 
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #64 on: 19/01/2011 00:28:14 »
Geezer, listen to what I am saying. You cannot assert about motion in GR because moving clocks cease to exist. Why is this part troubling you so?
 

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #65 on: 19/01/2011 00:37:44 »
Rats! I thought you were serious about the "last time".

No, you listen to what I'm saying, and at least attempt to answer my original question which was, "How do you measure time without motion?" Despite the fact that you keep trying to evade the issue, it's not really a trick question. 
 

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #66 on: 19/01/2011 00:40:01 »
BTW - we can split this into a new topic if you want.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #67 on: 19/01/2011 00:40:31 »
Rats! I thought you were serious about the "last time".

No, you listen to what I'm saying, and at least attempt to answer my original question which was, "How do you measure time without motion?" Despite the fact that you keep trying to evade the issue, it's not really a trick question. 

I said you can't in GR. That is the answer, that is my answer, and that is truth. Why have you made me say this over three times now to you? THAT is the answer. There is no if's, no but's... You cannot measure time with motion in relativity, because both cease to exist in GR.

This truely is the last time.
 

Offline Geezer

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #68 on: 19/01/2011 00:56:12 »
Rats! I thought you were serious about the "last time".

No, you listen to what I'm saying, and at least attempt to answer my original question which was, "How do you measure time without motion?" Despite the fact that you keep trying to evade the issue, it's not really a trick question. 

I said you can't in GR. That is the answer, that is my answer, and that is truth. Why have you made me say this over three times now to you? THAT is the answer. There is no if's, no but's... You cannot measure time with motion in relativity, because both cease to exist in GR.

This truely is the last time.

Oh goody! That means I get the last word.

So what you seem to be suggesting is that there is no such thing as time, so, obviously we can't measure something that doesn't exist. It's a pity you didn't say that in the first place rather than insisting that we were measuring time the wrong way.
 

Offline simplified

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #69 on: 19/01/2011 11:13:14 »
Rats! I thought you were serious about the "last time".

No, you listen to what I'm saying, and at least attempt to answer my original question which was, "How do you measure time without motion?" Despite the fact that you keep trying to evade the issue, it's not really a trick question. 

I said you can't in GR. That is the answer, that is my answer, and that is truth. Why have you made me say this over three times now to you? THAT is the answer. There is no if's, no but's... You cannot measure time with motion in relativity, because both cease to exist in GR.

This truely is the last time.
Name your time by other name. :P
 

Offline yor_on

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #70 on: 21/01/2011 15:46:51 »
Your own time is unchangeable. You can easily check that with your wristwatch against something else near you (heartbeats:). Others 'time' isn't though making them highly unreliable as your 'time pieces'. So when your boss points out that you're too late again, point out back that we left the Newtonian universe 1905. Possibly earlier?
« Last Edit: 21/01/2011 17:34:31 by yor_on »
 

Offline simplified

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #71 on: 24/01/2011 17:32:23 »
One second is defined quantity of Earth rotation.If atomic clock rests on Earth,then its second coincides with terrestrial second .If atomic clock quickly travels, then it shows wrong quantity of Earth rotation,though shows a right quantity of local motion of  local objects. In my definition a quantity of motion can be different.You should understand  measurement of motion quantity by another motion quantity.
 

Offline Bill S

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #72 on: 27/01/2011 22:17:09 »
I'll say one thing for time; it can certainly generate a lot of scientific discussion, philosophical floundering and even p...ing contests, but at the end of the day, I think I'm still with St Augustine: "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know; if I wish to explain it to someone who asks, I know not."
 

Offline yor_on

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #73 on: 29/01/2011 12:58:15 »
QC Julian Barbour makes some sense to me :)
Great minds think alike.

I like his views and he is quite poetic presenting them. "the quantum universe is static. Nothing happens; there is being but no becoming. The flow of time and motion are illusions." comes close to how I see it too. the difference possibly being that I define it as 'emergences', and as such having a 'reality' by its own for each 'scale' defined , as we look at it.

Ahem :)

A sweet Pdf.
Thnx.
 

Offline simplified

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
« Reply #74 on: 30/01/2011 07:54:32 »
Some sense is not definition.  ;)
 

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What is Time? If there was no light would Time cease to be?
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