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Author Topic: God real or not  (Read 233986 times)

Offline Acoustic Samurai

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #250 on: 03/08/2006 20:41:35 »
I had breakfast with God yesterday,
Omelets as a matter of fact.
And he said i have pretty eyes.

        -Timmy-

"Science Rules"

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Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #251 on: 04/08/2006 18:28:15 »
since most famous atheists are more well spoken than me- heres a neat list of quotes i found.
http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/viewquotes.php

my favorite is "if atheism is a religion, than not playing cards is a hobby"

this resonates with me, because a real atheist(rather than just a fallen-from-faith faux atheist, like so many are) doesnt walk the earth thinking about how god doesnt exist all the time, he doesnt pray to science. its not compareable to religion. he thinks about actual life, love, and other observable things instead. hes not plagued by god whatsoever- he doesnt even think about it!

what freedom!

anyway, i hope that shows some perspective for you blind-faithers.
 

Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #252 on: 04/08/2006 18:29:12 »
 

another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #253 on: 04/08/2006 19:08:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

since most famous atheists are more well spoken than me- heres a neat list of quotes i found.
http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/viewquotes.php

my favorite is "if atheism is a religion, than not playing cards is a hobby"

this resonates with me, because a real atheist(rather than just a fallen-from-faith faux atheist, like so many are) doesnt walk the earth thinking about how god doesnt exist all the time, he doesnt pray to science. its not compareable to religion. he thinks about actual life, love, and other observable things instead. hes not plagued by god whatsoever- he doesnt even think about it!

what freedom!

anyway, i hope that shows some perspective for you blind-faithers.



I think you are confusing atheism (a non-belief in God) with a lack of religion.

Buddhism is a religion that has no God – so they are at once atheists but yet are religious.

I would myself regard many forms of communism as a religion – although they were, in most of the extreme cases, militant atheists.

I would say that one of the defining issues of a religion is an intolerance of competing religions.  If you really do not have a religion, then you have nothing to fear from any religion, because that religion is not in competition with you.  The fact that communism was intolerant of religion was one of the criteria I would use to suggest that it was in competition with other religions, and thus a religion in its own right.



George
 

Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #254 on: 04/08/2006 22:06:31 »
youre correct that non-religious is not the same as atheist. but in this thread where only the abrahmaic and muslim god have been brought up, its easy confuse the 2.

i dont fully agree that if youre not religious, than youre not being threatened by any religion. this is the way it should be, in a perfect world, however... being a life long non-theist, people are constantly trying to convert me. religion is so widespread that it cant just be ignored, even though i desperately feel it should. i used to always say "im not religious" which NEVER failed to spark an uncomfortable conversation. finally i just switched to "im atheist" because it scares people a little more and theyre less likely to continue bothering me.

its interesting you bring up communism, because i am some sort of leftist, probably more of an anarcho-syndicalist. communism, as it is written, doesnt say much about religion. the quote from marx is

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

stating simply religion is counter-revolutionary because it makes people more likely to accept their opression. he didnt say anything more about it.

of course i am sticking to the original doctines, because communism has been ruined forever by the likes of mao and stalin. the way they applied it, more of a state oligarchy, yes, they were in competition with religion. i believe they had their own agenda beyond communism, but communism as written isnt a religion any more than capitalism is.
 

another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #255 on: 05/08/2006 00:16:15 »
Yes, the term “Religion is the opium of the people” is a quote so well known that it has become almost cliché.

The fact that communists do not class themselves as a religion does not of itself make it so.

As I said, there are leftist that do not go as far as Karl Marx, let alone the personality cults of Stalin and Mao (although one might substantially say that a personality cult has also arisen around Karl Marx, even though he may not have sought it in the way that Stalin and Mao did).  There are many socialists, and even communists, who believe there is no contradiction between their Christian values and militant communism – namely Liberation theology.

That religion is counter-revolutionary depends upon whether it is in a position of power or not.  Christians can be just as revolutionary as any communist, if they are not in a position of power.  Exactly the same could be said of communists – they are revolutionary only until they obtain power, and then seek to oppress other revolutions that might displace them from power.

That religion can be an opiate is true, but so can communism.  There are communists who have endured hardship for their cause, and so it must be regarded that the cause can make hardship more tolerable, just as Christianity can.



George
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #256 on: 05/08/2006 01:39:36 »
God real or not. My opinion "not"

If you get hold of a BBC mini series called "the atheism tapes" where Jonathan Miller talks to The late Arthur Miller, Colin McGinn, Steven Weinberg, Richard Dawkins, Denys Turner and Daniel Dennet then I would recommend you watch them. I found them very thought provoking and interesting conversations.

link below is to the bbc page concerning this series


http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/atheism-tapes.shtml

Steven
« Last Edit: 06/08/2006 03:37:28 by Mjhavok »
 

Offline gecko

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #257 on: 05/08/2006 18:07:13 »
i didnt say communism wasnt a religion simply because it doesnt class itself as one. youre stating an argument i never made and then disprooving it. i know i said this before, twice, but im done with this. arguing left wing politics on a thread about gods existance is pretty far off. i know i exacerbated it, so sorry.
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #258 on: 06/08/2006 03:39:58 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Yes, the term “Religion is the opium of the people” is a quote so well known that it has become almost cliché.





Isn't the quote "Religion is the opium of the masses".

In the end it kind of means the same I guess.

Steven
 

Offline TeapotTheist

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #259 on: 10/08/2006 10:03:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by ejirolove30

Humans were created 6000 yrs ago.



Preposterous statement, disproven by all the scientific evidence (fossils, genetics etc.)




Faith is not a virtue
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #260 on: 10/08/2006 12:25:39 »
Yep.
 

Offline TeapotTheist

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #261 on: 10/08/2006 17:39:26 »
quote:
Originally posted by tony6789

SO i guess no 1 will really know till they die huh?


A good and quite funny(!) book, suitable for kids, certain
to answer many of your questions, although mostly scientific ones:
Bill Bryson "A Short History of Nearly Everything".
Well, I enjoyed it...

---------------------
Faith is not a virtue
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #262 on: 11/08/2006 13:09:07 »
I have that book. My brother is reading it at the moment.


Steven
 

Offline rcoyle13

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #263 on: 14/08/2006 23:29:58 »
Listen: God is real.

Or do you not see and feel the Sun. I suppose this worldis simply chance?  Evolution by Chance. Not a very strong argument.
 

Offline vetteluv

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #264 on: 15/08/2006 03:48:20 »
Hey folks, just stumbled onto this forum and found myself fascinated by all the different points of view on this subject. I would like to add a couple, hopefully their not too redundant.

1. Of all the posts I've read, I've read nothing that mentions faith. While faith is probably one of the most unscientific concepts we have, it is one of the strongest markers of ones belief in a religion / god. It's really just the ability to believe w/out proof.
2. There are many stories in the bible about having faith in God, as well as God testing the faith of believers. If someone proved or disproved God's existance w/science, it seems that you would be eliminating one of the foundational concepts of the the bible which is faith.

I too have spent alot of time researching and studying this (i'm hear, ain't i)because I would like to find the truth. I do believe in God not because I have emperical scientific evidence, but because I've been taught to have faith. Faith does not exist to discount science, but science is used quite often to discount faith.
I think it's funny that when people are at their most desperate moment before death, such as a 500 m.p.h. vertical nosedive in a crashing plane, they some how abandon the scientific method for faith just long enough to to get in one "can you please save my as- Lord prayer".

Dennis
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #265 on: 15/08/2006 18:48:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by rcoyle13

Listen: God is real.

Or do you not see and feel the Sun. I suppose this worldis simply chance?  Evolution by Chance. Not a very strong argument.



I see the sun because of rods and cones in the retina of my eye which link to the optic nerve and then to the occiptal lobe which deals with the information, thus I see an image.

I feel the sun because of heat receptors in my skin which once again transmit information to the brain.

You saying evolution by chance is not a very strong argument just proves you know absolutely nothing about evolution. Read the origin of species a few times and don't just listen to intelligent design/creationist propaganda.

I am an atheist and I feel religion and to some extent believing in god can be harmful. I however don't attack people who believe in god because most are harmless and quite nice infact.

However, when people attack science because they are overly religious when they don't even have any evidence, just a contradictory book of fiction, it does bother me.

You may post your archaic and anti-scientific views somewhere else.

Here perhaps http://www.groupsrv.com/religion/


Steven
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In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
« Last Edit: 15/08/2006 18:49:53 by Mjhavok »
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #266 on: 15/08/2006 21:42:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mjhavok

quote:
Originally posted by rcoyle13

Listen: God is real.

Or do you not see and feel the Sun. I suppose this worldis simply chance?  Evolution by Chance. Not a very strong argument.



I see the sun because of rods and cones in the retina of my eye which link to the optic nerve and then to the occiptal lobe which deals with the information, thus I see an image.

I feel the sun because of heat receptors in my skin which once again transmit information to the brain.

You saying evolution by chance is not a very strong argument just proves you know absolutely nothing about evolution. Read the origin of species a few times and don't just listen to intelligent design/creationist propaganda.

I am an atheist and I feel religion and to some extent believing in god can be harmful. I however don't attack people who believe in god because most are harmless and quite nice infact.

However, when people attack science because they are overly religious when they don't even have any evidence, just a contradictory book of fiction, it does bother me.

You may post your archaic and anti-scientific views somewhere else.

Here perhaps http://www.groupsrv.com/religion/


Steven
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In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.



Steven - I'm just curious, in your last two sentences, are you addressing rcoyle13, or all Christians in general?

Carolyn
 

Offline RMorty

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #267 on: 15/08/2006 22:36:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by vetteluv

I think it's funny that when people are at their most desperate moment before death, such as a 500 m.p.h. vertical nosedive in a crashing plane, they some how abandon the scientific method for faith just long enough to to get in one "can you please save my as- Lord prayer".



 I like that, because it's true, that does seem to be how it works. Yes, it is funny.  But I guess most people are raised with "Oh god" as a regular saying when something bad happens sort of like saying "oh [place four letter word here]!!"

I agree with vetteluv, this thread is awesome because of the low numbers of pointless posts.

  Here's my two cents.... I respect other's religious beliefs, finding them harmless most of the time. However, it's when you get millions of people believing what is right without any reasoning, especially in politics that it becomes a problem.

 The bible is two thousand years old and it has never been revised.  We update everything. Our computers, textbooks, cars, electronics, clothing styles, power systems. I know this may anger a lot of religious fanatics, but perhaps it's time for a new edition.  Two thousand years ago world population was around a quarter billion now it’s over 6 billion. So yes, when Jesus was walking the earth(a good guy I might add, he fed people fish and gave them alcohol) they needed people to reproduce, people weren't living to be eighty years old, we didn’t have the same medicine as today, so no wonder the bible forbids abortions and homosexuality, they wanted all able people to reproduce. Today it's different we have an overpopulated planet and it's not getting any bigger. I say again, maybe its time for a new edition.  Religion was an excellent way to control people back then by making answers that can't be questioned without being executed.

  As far as the possibility of god, I'd say it’s extremely possible because science hasn't figured out origins of the universe for example, the big bang theory, including the things with matter and antimatter. Whatever the theory, it raises one question... where did that big ball of matter that exploded come from?  Where did the unthinkable amount of energy needed to make matter and antimatter atoms come from?  We don't know....  if religious fanatics say "oh well god exists because he is necessary and never had a beginning or an end and just is because he must be" then the non-believers say "well then how do you know the universe isn't existent just because it is?"

  Now let me get to my point, I said earlier I believe god is very possible.... HOWEVER... I don't imagine this god being anything like "an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do..And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! ..But He loves you"(George Carlin[Napalm and Silly Putty])  I would say this god would be an invisible man living in the sky who created the universe because he can, and not only is this god the creator of the universe but himself has a creator and that which created this god has a beginning and he dosen't give a damn about earth we're just another little ball of mold floating around a star and so on... But not some dude who's like "worship me and let your planet get cluster-****ed with 7 billion people because homosexuality and abortion are wrong and if you do you can live with me forever worshipping me with every moment of eternity.

  I think religion is only making overpopulation worse. I respect the fact that every one of us, each person reading this, was at one time an embryo, but abortion on a small cluster of cells, would be no more killing a human being than if I cut the tip of my finger off with a meat slicer and tossed it in the garbage. I do however disagree with later stage abortion when there is brain activity, but before it gets advanced there is no good reason why abortion isn't okay. I personally am not for the idea of homosexuality simply because I am straight, but I really don't care. In theory, you have couples who PHYSICALLY CANNOT HAVE KIDS and they are willing to adopt children who need families. I have heard some studies say children raised by two same gendered parents grow up no differently if not better than ones with both.

 I am aware of how much I contradict myself in my post but I simply do that to 1. Keep an open mind and 2. Be a step ahead of those wanting to make contradicting points... although I do try to make my personal opinion clear.
 

another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #268 on: 16/08/2006 00:06:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by RMorty
 The bible is two thousand years old and it has never been revised.



Sorry, but this statement is categorically wrong – when did you last read the old testament in Aramaic, or even the new testament in Latin?

Then again, Muslims have their own updated version of the bible (OK, it is still about 1,400 years old, but still newer that 2,000 years).

The English version of the bible has been regularly updated.  Not even the King James' version is any longer what most people refer to.

Ofcourse, most of the major revisions have been a consequence of a schism in the Church (Martin Luther being a prime example, splitting the church over his attempt to have the bible translated into the vernacular, as well as some issues with papal power).

Ofcourse, other new religions, such as Scientology, also keep springing up; and the Mormons had their own particular update of the bible.

There is nothing that prevents you from drafting a revised bible, or even to completely rewrite the bible from scratch (after all, if L. Ron Hubbard can create a new religion, so can you).  The problem you have is that Christianity has a 2000 year head start on you, and has a large established user base that may not immediately wish to throw away its long established systems, systems that millions of people are comfortable with, for the new and untested invention you may have in mind).

quote:

So yes, when Jesus was walking the earth(a good guy I might add, he fed people fish and gave them alcohol) they needed people to reproduce, people weren't living to be eighty years old, we didn’t have the same medicine as today, so no wonder the bible forbids abortions and homosexuality, they wanted all able people to reproduce. Today it's different we have an overpopulated planet and it's not getting any bigger.



Not even sure that the bible does forbid abortion – not sure it was actually an issue that was raised in biblical times.  The prohibition on homosexuality is there, as is the prohibition on masturbation for men (although it is not at all clear to me that the story of Tamar and Onan is really about masturbation so much as about a woman's right to bear children, but it has subsequently been interpreted as being a prohibition on masturbation).

I don;t actually believe we are overpopulated.  What is true is that in the aftermath of industrialisation, increasingly most labour in human society is undertaken by machines rather than by human beings, and so the wealth of human societies is no longer linked to its population of humans, but rather associated to its population of machines (it is interesting that no-one argues that the world is overpopulated with machines, although there are probably more machines out there than people, and the energy and raw material consumption of those machines is far in excess of the energy and raw material usage of human beings – the only machines people tend to be sometimes concerned about are motor cars).

Ofcourse, you are always at liberty to start a religion that forbids procreation (there certainly has been many past religious societies that have demanded their members abstain from sexual practices, which inevitably means that their members did not have children).



George
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #269 on: 16/08/2006 00:20:23 »
quote:
Steven - I'm just curious, in your last two sentences, are you addressing rcoyle13, or all Christians in general?

Carolyn



I was addressing rcoyle13 and people who attack science without any kind of evidence or facts behind them. I know people who believe in god and I have friends who do so. It is their right to believe in what they want.

Steven
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« Last Edit: 16/08/2006 00:22:09 by Mjhavok »
 

Offline RMorty

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #270 on: 16/08/2006 05:51:11 »
quote:

Not even sure that the bible does forbid abortion – not sure it was actually an issue that was raised in biblical times.  The prohibition on homosexuality is there....



I understand what you mean by it dosen't directly forbid abortion because, as far as I know they didn't have it then and no where in the bible is the word abortion. However, it says you should not kill and many people interpret abortions as "Murdering babies" and then the religions look at it as a violation of religious rules.

quote:

Ofcourse, you are always at liberty to start a religion that forbids procreation (there certainly has been many past religious societies that have demanded their members abstain from sexual practices, which inevitably means that their members did not have children).



  No, I don't agree with saying that people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, that's everyone's right. All I was saying is that there are things that could assist the issue of overpopulation and homosexuality and abortions are among them.  I hope everyone understands where I am coming from with this.

  All of my statements are with the assumption that religion was created to control people and I was simply trying to point out some possible explanations of why certain things in the bible are what they are.

  Also to anwser one of your questions the last time I read any version of the bible is never, sorry.
 

another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #271 on: 16/08/2006 08:16:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by RMorty
I understand what you mean by it dosen't directly forbid abortion because, as far as I know they didn't have it then and no where in the bible is the word abortion. However, it says you should not kill and many people interpret abortions as "Murdering babies" and then the religions look at it as a violation of religious rules.



But this does not prevent most of them from going to war.

There is a very selective interpretation of 'Thou shall not kill'.  To be fair, I suspect the original was far more selective (it certainly was not written in English, and has been subject to translation, and the losses that that imposes).  I suspect the original was more along the lines of 'Thou shall not commit murder' (analogous with the prohibition 'Thou shall not steal'.

quote:

  No, I don't agree with saying that people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, that's everyone's right. All I was saying is that there are things that could assist the issue of overpopulation and homosexuality and abortions are among them.  I hope everyone understands where I am coming from with this.

  All of my statements are with the assumption that religion was created to control people and I was simply trying to point out some possible explanations of why certain things in the bible are what they are.



The problem is that the reason people like religion is precisely because that sort of simple control absolves them from the responsibility of complex uncertainty and ambiguity of morality.

quote:

  Also to anwser one of your questions the last time I read any version of the bible is never, sorry.



I am an atheist - I do not avidly read the bible myself, and have never read it cover to cover; but I am interested in history and in human behaviour, and you cannot really understand either unless you are at least a little familiar with the religious texts that humans use.  It is true that for obvious cultural reasons, I am more familiar with the Bibles than with the Koran, or other religious texts; although they are all in their own way equally as significant in the understanding of past and present human behaviour.
« Last Edit: 16/08/2006 08:23:51 by another_someone »
 

Offline RMorty

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #272 on: 20/08/2006 05:01:35 »
I agree with you on this, good discussion.  Thanks for pointing out some of those things, Another_Somone.

  Also, I have heard rumors. Only rumors, that the government has scientifically proven over almost a century of work and research that the existence of god, I mean any god is impossible.  The suspicious part is that the rumor includes that the government won't take it public because it would, for lack of a better way of putting it, piss a lot of people off.  Yes, it would. But the complexity of the possibility of being able to scientifically disprove it would be hard to agree with.  That's the problem with this topic is it's hard to say for sure that a god is impossible and on the contrary its hard to say for sure that a god is real.  That's why I say I am agnostic. For those who aren't familiar with agnosticsm it is basically beleiving that the possibility of god isnt impossible but you would need real proof to beleive it Ie. Jesus floats down from the sky ina column of light one night when your sitting in the back of your pickup truck discussing why god can't be real with your buddy after work, then he stands there and says "Okay guys I'm real so you can stop talking **** about me now.....". Then floats back up.

P.S. Isn't his 2000 year return time up yet?
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #273 on: 23/08/2006 23:17:40 »
I watched a DVD of the comedian Bill Hicks and he talks about the return of christ and the fact that catholics wear crosses. He basically states that if jesus did come back to earth the last thing he would want to see is a cross. How true.
« Last Edit: 23/08/2006 23:18:42 by Mjhavok »
 

Offline Mjhavok

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #274 on: 23/08/2006 23:17:40 »
I watched a DVD of the comedian Bill Hicks and he talks about the return of christ and the fact that catholics wear crosses. He basically states that if jesus did come back to earth the last thing he would want to see is a cross. How true.
« Last Edit: 23/08/2006 23:18:42 by Mjhavok »
 

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Re: God real or not
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