The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: God real or not  (Read 234361 times)

Offline Carolyn

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3761
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #300 on: 31/08/2006 02:41:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by Non_Believer

Annoyed? So you're telling me you got offended by a harmless post? Seriously. How old do you have to be to not get offended by something on the internet? Which in turn, you don't have to read, but do anyways. How mature of an adult, perhaps? That in itself is a form of ignorance. To get offended by something you don't have to read, but chose to read. Yes, emotional feelings are hard to control on your own, but you still chose to read my post even further, to make yourself even more annoyed. It's like reading a book on opinions, and then throwing it away because it annoyed you and you thought it was garbage of a book but kept on reading it when it still flustered you. It is something stupid to get annoyed over, and let your emotions fluster over something so small.



Actually what annoys me is that you are on a forum where there are people of all different races and beliefs.  People generally get along rather well here.  Instead of trying to understand or accept those differences you choose to call people names and remain argumentative.  Are you not able to have a discussion without being insulting? Somehow I doubt that you can.  Everything you've written is dripping with arrogance and disdain.  One more thing that annoys me is this.  You have the nerve to call people you know nothing about ignorant, when you are proof that the Florida School system has gone to hell in a handbasket.  Print it out, take it to your english teacher and ask him what he thinks.

Carolyn
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #301 on: 31/08/2006 03:11:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by Non_Believer
Maybe this should be handled maturely, lets end this post with a sincere "Goodbye". We all have our opinions, and let it be at that, I don't believe in God, George is more intelligent than I am (maybe because of age and have learned more?), and Carolyn believes in God.

:)



Thank you for that.

Without being angry, or trying to be patronising, I would suggest the first thing you should learn is how little anyone (including me) can ever really know, and none of us should ever assume we have, the definitive answer to any question.

The second thing, having realised that, is to have a little tact in how you approach these things (it saves a lot of embarrassment and heartache all around at the end of the day).

Besides that, whether you choose to say goodbye (which, bye the way, actually is a corruption of “God be with ye”) is up to you, but you are more than welcome to stay.

You are right that it takes a brave and honest man to admit when they have made a mistake -and you have my respect for that.



George
 

Offline Carolyn

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3761
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #302 on: 31/08/2006 03:33:38 »
quote:
And I'm not much like other people, you have proven me wrong in many places (yes, being proved wrong is good for me, lets me learn even more), but still realize, I'm just a teenager with an opinion.


Steven - I sincerely apologise to you. I didn't mean to be so harsh, I was just trying to make a point.  Nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as we learn from them.  Saying that you are just a teenager implies that you aren't, for lack of a better word, valuable.  You are valuable and your opinion matters, whether I agree with you or not.

quote:
My English teacher is an idiot to a major degree, and I have many people who will agree to that. But no I can have a normal discussion without being insulting. I do come off insulting because of how I feel about the ideas of God, religion, and science. Most people can't take something without getting offended. And I can much agree with you on the Florida School System, I have not fully lived this school system, but many others.

I'm pretty sure as an American yourself, you are in the same damn basket of idiots as we're all in. This whole country is full of ignorance, and it drips with it. We know nothing about respect, and I've grown up never getting respect, so I barely give any respect back to anyone who asks for it.

But as this is the internet, I have ALL rights to say what I want, and how I feel about something, wether I get nasty about it or not.


This just made me laugh.  I get the feeling you have a wonderful sense of humor, I just missed it.  Sorry I didn't see it.  I also live in Florida, and have one child in the FL school system, and one that's graduated and is off in college.  It is a challenge making sure my kids don't get behind the 8 ball when it comes to an education in Florida. You mentioned that you went to school outside of Florida too?  Have you had to take that awful FCAT yet?  If so, I hope you did well.  If not, good luck.

Steven - I'm sorry you haven't been shown respect.  I hope that changes for you very soon.

quote:
I'll mistreat the use of the internet, I'll abuse the hell out of it. For my own purpose. You and everyone else on this forum, I can give less care for. Your opinions (some great at that) don't matter to me. No one that I don't know that isn't close to me is just an itch on the arm to me. Forums of this such don't matter, you people don't matter.


Yes, these forums do matter.  I've learned alot here and have made some good friends.  And although I've disagreed and argued with you, you should know that you and your opinion matter.  Hope you stick around and check out some other topics.
quote:

Maybe this should be handled maturely, lets end this post with a sincere "Goodbye". We all have our opinions, and let it be at that, I don't believe in God, George is more intelligent than I am (maybe because of age and have learned more?), and Carolyn believes in God.


Something we can agree on.  George is more intelligent than most of us.

Carolyn



 

Offline Non_Believer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #303 on: 31/08/2006 03:34:59 »
Thanks and I will stay here, maybe not posting much though.
 

Offline Non_Believer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #304 on: 31/08/2006 03:44:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by Carolyn

quote:
And I'm not much like other people, you have proven me wrong in many places (yes, being proved wrong is good for me, lets me learn even more), but still realize, I'm just a teenager with an opinion.


Steven - I sincerely apologise to you. I didn't mean to be so harsh, I was just trying to make a point.  Nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as we learn from them.  Saying that you are just a teenager implies that you aren't, for lack of a better word, valuable.  You are valuable and your opinion matters, whether I agree with you or not.

quote:
My English teacher is an idiot to a major degree, and I have many people who will agree to that. But no I can have a normal discussion without being insulting. I do come off insulting because of how I feel about the ideas of God, religion, and science. Most people can't take something without getting offended. And I can much agree with you on the Florida School System, I have not fully lived this school system, but many others.

I'm pretty sure as an American yourself, you are in the same damn basket of idiots as we're all in. This whole country is full of ignorance, and it drips with it. We know nothing about respect, and I've grown up never getting respect, so I barely give any respect back to anyone who asks for it.

But as this is the internet, I have ALL rights to say what I want, and how I feel about something, wether I get nasty about it or not.


This just made me laugh.  I get the feeling you have a wonderful sense of humor, I just missed it.  Sorry I didn't see it.  I also live in Florida, and have one child in the FL school system, and one that's graduated and is off in college.  It is a challenge making sure my kids don't get behind the 8 ball when it comes to an education in Florida. You mentioned that you went to school outside of Florida too?  Have you had to take that awful FCAT yet?  If so, I hope you did well.  If not, good luck.

Steven - I'm sorry you haven't been shown respect.  I hope that changes for you very soon.

quote:
I'll mistreat the use of the internet, I'll abuse the hell out of it. For my own purpose. You and everyone else on this forum, I can give less care for. Your opinions (some great at that) don't matter to me. No one that I don't know that isn't close to me is just an itch on the arm to me. Forums of this such don't matter, you people don't matter.


Yes, these forums do matter.  I've learned alot here and have made some good friends.  And although I've disagreed and argued with you, you should know that you and your opinion matter.  Hope you stick around and check out some other topics.
quote:

Maybe this should be handled maturely, lets end this post with a sincere "Goodbye". We all have our opinions, and let it be at that, I don't believe in God, George is more intelligent than I am (maybe because of age and have learned more?), and Carolyn believes in God.


Something we can agree on.  George is more intelligent than most of us.

Carolyn







Ugh, the FCAT, I have only one left to take, Science FCAT (I'm in 11th). I've lived in Texas, Missouri, North Carolina, and a native from Georgia. Florida is just about the worst place I have lived (there is probably worse, I just haven't experienced them). Respect with me has always been an issue, as in my beliefs, and just how I am (music and clothing). But the respect is coming around better than what it used to be. But I'll check out the other forums here and all. Gonna go watch some of that mindless TV that is out there, and work on a little homework. Good night.
 

Offline Non_Believer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #305 on: 31/08/2006 06:59:37 »
Bill Hicks - It Seems So Plausible:
« Last Edit: 31/08/2006 07:00:09 by Non_Believer »
 

ROBERT

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #306 on: 01/09/2006 16:42:46 »
Perhaps this thread is the correct place for this story, (I have moved it from Chat).

" Medical practices blend health and faith
 

By Rob Stein

Updated: 10:03 a.m. ET Aug. 31, 2006
Sandwiched between a swimming pool store and a spice shop on Lee Highway in Fairfax, the Tepeyac Family Center looks like any other suburban doctor's office. But it isn't.

The practice combines "the best of modern medicine with the healing presence of Jesus Christ," a brochure at the reception desk announces. An image of the Madonna greets every patient. Doctors, nurses and staff gather to pray each day before the first appointments.
 
The center is one of a small but growing number of practices around the country that tailor the care they provide to the religious beliefs of their doctors, shunning birth-control and morning-after pills, IUDs and other contraceptive devices, sterilizations, and abortions, as well as in vitro fertilization. Instead, doctors offer "natural family planning" -- teaching couples to monitor a woman's temperature and other bodily signals to time intercourse.."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14576677/

« Last Edit: 01/09/2006 16:43:14 by ROBERT »
 

Offline Non_Believer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #307 on: 01/09/2006 22:48:18 »
That's odd, because most Christians, and some just God believers (ones who believe, but don't have a religion), don't believe in medical help; but not all obviously.
 

Offline Non_Believer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #308 on: 02/09/2006 21:59:15 »
It's more like a lot, rather than most.
 

Offline cranial_implant

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #309 on: 02/09/2006 22:58:24 »
I have to say that I am a non believer too.

My head is not what it used to be.
 

ROBERT

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #310 on: 04/09/2006 17:21:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by ROBERT

 
The center is one of a small but growing number of practices around the country
 that tailor the care they provide to the religious beliefs of their doctors

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14576677/




If the practice was Buddhist would it include a veterinarian ? :)
« Last Edit: 04/09/2006 17:24:57 by ROBERT »
 

Offline Mjhavok

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
    • View Profile
    • http://cantmakeadifference.blogspot.com
Re: God real or not
« Reply #311 on: 05/09/2006 05:47:10 »
Prove I exists mm.

Cogito ergo sum
 

Offline Mjhavok

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
    • View Profile
    • http://cantmakeadifference.blogspot.com
Re: God real or not
« Reply #312 on: 05/09/2006 05:50:04 »
Solipsism is metaphysical mumbo jumbo. If you take solipsisms into account then you can prove nothing. Hence what is the point. You may aswell be nihilistic.

Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more; it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2006 05:52:17 by Mjhavok »
 

Offline Titanscape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #313 on: 27/09/2006 15:34:25 »
God is more than real, the source of the space, time and matter and cogniscience of it, cogniscience of self and God. It is formed from and according to Him. We are like cartoons or Trons in God's formation.

God is like a universe of strange dimensions and processes who is much bigger and surrounds the vast space which to him is like a bowl.

Or again the universe is like God's brain fluid, in the space widening from the spinal cord into the brain.

A place of comparative simplicity. Of free wills and their creations within His.

God is the higher reality.

He speaks and we can hear it and all can read the Bible. That is I heard my secret thoughts revealed, and my conscience was cleansed. I was convicted I needed more. I got more, I fell to the ground. My fears were driven away, I drank living water... Things I read about in the Gospel, I experienced.

It makes sense to say reality comes from something, not nowhere or nothing. It comes from God, order and cogniscience, good and evil.





Titanscape
« Last Edit: 27/09/2006 15:41:05 by Titanscape »
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #314 on: 27/09/2006 20:16:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by Mjhavok
Solipsism is metaphysical mumbo jumbo. If you take solipsisms into account then you can prove nothing.



Solipsism is far from mumbo jumbo, but it is a philosophical issue rather than a scientific one.

Ofcourse, if one takes solipsism into account, one can prove nothing beyond one's own conceptual existence (and technically, one can also argue that everything else also conceptually exists, only one cannot prove the physical existence of anything beyond oneself, and while one may reasonably assume one's own physical existence, one cannot prove anything about the nature of that existence).

You are right that taking solipsism into account highlights the limitations of what may be proven absolutely, and thus highlights that no matter what science one tries to perform, one must make some assumptions.  This does not invalidate science, it merely places some limits on science, and limits upon knowledge in any form.



George
 

Offline bostjan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #315 on: 28/09/2006 08:16:44 »
I think solipsism is such an extreme philosophy, that it attracts a lot of attention.  From a purist's standpoint, however, you must define something as reality in order to even talk about reality clearly, thus solipsism, upon it's assumption that reality cannot be seen nor sensed in any way, leaves reality undefined, and cannot speak clearly of reality, which is the very thing it intends to make us aware of.  Therefore, in my opinion, by this argument, it is useless to any form of science.

God, can be argued along the same lines.  If we define god such that god exists everywhere, yet cannot be sensed, thewn the very idea of god is merely a plaything with no basis on any logical or scientific process.  If you define god in a way that has something to do with logic or science, then there would be some way to find god.  But as long as we are uncertain in our terms of what we are looking for, there will be no means of finding.  In the cases where gods have been defined as something tangible, evidence has always disproved their existence.
 

ROBERT

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #316 on: 28/09/2006 17:19:25 »
« Last Edit: 28/09/2006 17:19:49 by ROBERT »
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #317 on: 28/09/2006 22:13:17 »
OMG Robert...that's amazing !!..........some bloke never finished his drink !!! :)

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
 

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #318 on: 29/09/2006 02:38:28 »
who is that, ted nugent?
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #319 on: 29/09/2006 02:44:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by bostjan
I think solipsism is such an extreme philosophy, that it attracts a lot of attention.  From a purist's standpoint, however, you must define something as reality in order to even talk about reality clearly, thus solipsism, upon it's assumption that reality cannot be seen nor sensed in any way, leaves reality undefined, and cannot speak clearly of reality, which is the very thing it intends to make us aware of.  Therefore, in my opinion, by this argument, it is useless to any form of science.


Solipsism is extreme, but no more so than the concept of infinity, or the infinitesimal – neither can exist in reality, yet are valid ways to explore concepts at the limits.
As you say, any 'reality', as a scientist would understand it, must include assumptions.  What solipsism demonstrates is that it is in fact impossible to have a substantial reality without some arbitrary assumptions.
quote:

God, can be argued along the same lines.  If we define god such that god exists everywhere, yet cannot be sensed, thewn the very idea of god is merely a plaything with no basis on any logical or scientific process.  If you define god in a way that has something to do with logic or science, then there would be some way to find god.  But as long as we are uncertain in our terms of what we are looking for, there will be no means of finding.  In the cases where gods have been defined as something tangible, evidence has always disproved their existence.


There is much of the above I agree with, but not everything.
Science and logic are not the same thing.  One can apply logic to concepts that are not inherently scientific, although the converse is not true, science cannot exist in a context devoid of logic.
It is quite possible to speculate upon the notion of a God that is logical, but I would agree that it is not possible to speculate upon the notion of a God that is consistent with science.
I also agree that most of the modern definitions of God are extremely woolly to say the least, and this does inhibit any proper logical debate about God.



George
 

Offline bostjan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #320 on: 01/10/2006 07:41:41 »
Sorry to speak frankly, but there is very little logical about god.  He is argued to be every opposing extreme in monotheistic religion as well as pantheistic religions, which cover most modern religions.  I never intended to say that science and logic are the same.  They are tools, which together help us understand nature.  Science without logic existed in early greek and egyptian history.  Logic exists without science.

Solipsism is essentially the philosophical scepticism of science.  I'm taking much liberty to paraphrase it as such, but the belief that what we measure and observe is not to be trusted is the same to me.

The extremism of infinity is absolutely different from how i mean the term to describe a philosophy or rhetoric.  Perhaps 'radical' would be a more fitting term.  The way it claims that we cannot claim anything about the outside world is taking a simple fact that observations are tainted by the observer- to the maximum tangible level.

Ok, back to the logical issues with debating god- a logical implication A implies B may be true if A is false or if both A and B are true - and if the truth of A actually tells you about the truth of B, yet in theological arguments, people often try to use this to prove B, which is unprovable by use of A that is simply true but has nothing to do with B.  I.E.- Look at how beautiful a butterfly is!  The beauty of the butterfly must mean there is a god!  or  The bullet just barely missed me so there must be a god!
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #321 on: 01/10/2006 20:53:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by bostjan
Sorry to speak frankly, but there is very little logical about god.  He is argued to be every opposing extreme in monotheistic religion as well as pantheistic religions, which cover most modern religions.


Most people who speak of God are not logicians, and do not attempt to create a logically cohesive view of God.  This does not mean it is not possible to create a logically cohesive philosophy that includes the notion of a God (this does not make the philosophy scientific, but it can nonetheless be logically cohesive).
quote:

Solipsism is essentially the philosophical scepticism of science.  I'm taking much liberty to paraphrase it as such, but the belief that what we measure and observe is not to be trusted is the same to me.
The extremism of infinity is absolutely different from how i mean the term to describe a philosophy or rhetoric.  Perhaps 'radical' would be a more fitting term.  The way it claims that we cannot claim anything about the outside world is taking a simple fact that observations are tainted by the observer- to the maximum tangible level.


I don't disagree with you, but I don't see how it invalidates that extreme.

quote:

Ok, back to the logical issues with debating god- a logical implication A implies B may be true if A is false or if both A and B are true - and if the truth of A actually tells you about the truth of B, yet in theological arguments, people often try to use this to prove B, which is unprovable by use of A that is simply true but has nothing to do with B.  I.E.- Look at how beautiful a butterfly is!  The beauty of the butterfly must mean there is a god!  or  The bullet just barely missed me so there must be a god!


But, again, you are arguing that because some people (even many people) abuse logic in trying to create a view of God, that therefore there cannot be a logical model that includes the concept of God.



George
 

Offline bostjan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #322 on: 02/10/2006 03:32:41 »
I have yet to see one logical explanation that even comes close to proving the existance of any spirit (non-material) being.  If you define god as 'the supreme being who was creator of the universe and is now ruler of the universe,' then there are plenty of things, in the abstract sence, which would possibly fit the definition, such as gravity, energy, or time, but to say there is some personified creature that rules the universe is really non sequitor, as far as I'm concerned.  It just doesn't make any sense.  Why does there have to be someone ruling the universe?  What exactly do they do to execute this rule?  What exactly does the existance of this person explain?

There does not have to be.  The rules of nature govern the behaviour of the universe.  Nothing.  The existance of god does not explain anything.  As a scientist, I have no interest in theories that raise more unanswerable questions and explain nothing observable.  If I was a philosopher, I would probably be intrigued…
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: God real or not
« Reply #323 on: 02/10/2006 04:09:55 »
quote:
Originally posted by bostjan
I have yet to see one logical explanation that even comes close to proving the existance of any spirit (non-material) being.



I think you missed what I said.  The issue of proof is another matter.  What I said is that one can develop a logically consistent system that includes a God – this is not to say that in any scientific sense one can 'prove' the existence of God.

I have always said one cannot have a scientific system that includes God.  I am not sure whether one can regard anything that is counter-scientific as provable, in that most people here would regard 'proof' as being something scientific.

quote:

but to say there is some personified creature that rules the universe is really non sequitor, as far as I'm concerned.  It just doesn't make any sense.  Why does there have to be someone ruling the universe?  What exactly do they do to execute this rule?  What exactly does the existance of this person explain?

There does not have to be.  The rules of nature govern the behaviour of the universe.  Nothing.  The existance of god does not explain anything.  As a scientist, I have no interest in theories that raise more unanswerable questions and explain nothing observable.  If I was a philosopher, I would probably be intrigued…



Science deals with certain questions, but only those questions.

There are generally regarded as 5 types of question – who, where, why, what, and how.  Science deals with what and how, and not much else.  For a scientist, or an engineer, this is enough; but it is hopelessly inadequate to a judicial system.  The judicial system is primarily concerned with who; and how, or why, is only needed insofar as it helps show 'who' is responsible, but beyond that, 'how' is not pertinent to the judicial system, and 'why' is only slightly pertinent.  Thus, while science has dismissed the notion of God, since nothing in the concept of religion has much relevance to 'how'; but the judicial system retained the notion of an 'act of God', because that explains 'who', but it does so at the expense of ignoring the 'how' – but as I said, the judiciary is not that concerned with 'how'.

Again, as you say, the anthropomorphism surrounding the notion of God is arbitrary, but again, since the notion of God does not try to explain 'how', or even 'what'; thus it is rather arbitrary what God may or may not be.

I know that the above is inherently unscientific, because science can never ignore 'how'; but I always said that God can never fit into the scientific model.  All I said is that there are models where God can perform a valid logical function.



George
 

Offline tony6789

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1127
    • View Profile
Re: God real or not
« Reply #324 on: 03/10/2006 21:23:09 »
this topic is still going?! jeez

NEVER! underestimate youth
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: God real or not
« Reply #324 on: 03/10/2006 21:23:09 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums