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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #425 on: 17/04/2007 16:19:59 »
God is both willing and able, I think God just wants people to be good through choice not through slavery. Evil comes from Freedom but so does love- Its a choice. You are who you choose to be.
So by giving us freedom God allows people to be evil as well as good- But God loves us and wants us to be good and free.
If you use your gift of life to destroy others then- It is your funneral.
I think God wants to save as many as possible so God gives enought time to each to decided what he/she wants to be- Angel or demon.
Your choice- Your life- your death.
God does'nt kill people- people do.
You have your alotted time so use it as you want- You are in the end free.
Well if your good your free- the Devil makes you his slave. 


Nice post Jolly.:)
 

Offline Batroost

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« Reply #426 on: 18/04/2007 20:10:11 »
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But God loves us

And also gives us Earthquakes, and Volcanoes, and Lightning Strikes, and Tsunamis, and Tornadoes, Flooding, Cylones, Hurricanes, disease, droughts and age-related illneses ...?

 
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #427 on: 18/04/2007 21:34:48 »
Saying you have a belief in God is fine by me but, it is a personal individual feeling so accept that it is not always shared.


If you believe that God has put you here and that he has also given you free will, will he interfere with man's future decisions?

Bee


 

Offline tony6789

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« Reply #428 on: 19/04/2007 16:30:52 »
could there be more than one god? like maybe the god that some of us believe in has a mom and a dad?
 

Offline Batroost

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« Reply #429 on: 19/04/2007 19:27:19 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).
 

Offline RMorty

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« Reply #430 on: 20/04/2007 01:48:15 »
 Jolly,

  Good point about the fact that god doesn't matter if a person is only moral because of fear.

  Someone who is religious. Please explain how Christ died for everyone's sin.  I wasn't alive when he died on the cross, what sins exactly?  If the world still has sin did he really die to so anything to sin?  Also, the thing saying that everyone has a sin once they're born "the cardinal sin" or whatever it is called, that thing... it really sets off my bullshit alarm.

  For those of you who are naturalists.  You don't believe in a deity as this topic is discussing so that sort of information has no place here, it simply created more angles to look at things, which are off topic.

  If you believe that there is a god that created anything, if you are a deist, if you believe in Greek gods etc.

  Scientology isn't involving a "god", nor is naturalism. 

Back on track now.  If there is a god, then why does he demand that we all believe by faith?  What's wrong with telling us he is real.  If I had tangible proof then I would have no doubt.  If I tell you that I had $867 shoved up my ass crack, and I told you I did, and then, I asked you if you believed me, then you said yes.  Then how about I say, if you reach up my ass and grab the money it's yours?  Would you do it just to find out I was cuddling  with you?  It would make it easier if I said, hey, here's the money, now its going between my ass cheeks and if you are man/woman enough to reach in there and take it it's yours.

  That is a really jacked up analogy I know, but it works.  Sure I can spend 1/7th of my week praising the unknown to die and realize that there is nothingness (if realizing a reality in nothingness were possible).  Or, God could simply let he world know he exists without a doubt then the logical people wouldn't have to wonder about it.

  Sure, I think the idea of a loving god id nice, but I CAN'T, I literally CAN'T, I can lie and say yes I believe in god, but I don't and the way preachers put it, that's what counts.

  My belief is that I didn't exist before I was born, and I won't exist afterwards.  As a matter of fact, thinking that I won't exist once I am dead is more comforting than believing that I will either spend eternity in bliss or eternity in a place full of pain and anguish.

  it's also funny that god loves you until you're dead.  He loves everyone no matter how much she sins, but once they die... bye bye.

 Also a parting thought.. isn't the devil a "good guy." I mean think about it. If he is punishing those who "betray god" isn't he sort of like an employee? lol. Like a jailer is to the legal system?
 

Offline tony6789

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« Reply #431 on: 20/04/2007 16:36:04 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).

that is an extremely bold quote Batroost and my and i assume others probably dont appreciate that. You can express your opinion on this site but dont flat out say stuff like its a fact refer to it as your opinion. thx
 

Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #432 on: 20/04/2007 16:40:24 »
I don't appreciate it that's for sure.

But is bold the right word?
 

Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #433 on: 20/04/2007 16:42:33 »
Quote
But God loves us

And also gives us Earthquakes, and Volcanoes, and Lightning Strikes, and Tsunamis, and Tornadoes, Flooding, Cylones, Hurricanes, disease, droughts and age-related illneses ...?

 

God uses these catastrophes to turn people to him. Sin also causes all of those. So you can't entirly blame God.

If there's a war..did God start that war? Or did people start that war?

..Or did natural sinful nature make us start that war?
 

Offline Batroost

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« Reply #434 on: 20/04/2007 17:03:39 »
Quote
Quote from: Batroost on 19/04/2007 19:27:19
God is not a reason (as there is no God).


that is an extremely bold quote Batroost and my and i assume others probably dont appreciate that. You can express your opinion on this site but dont flat out say stuff like its a fact refer to it as your opinion. thx

You're absolutely right. In my opinion "God is not a reason (as there is no God)."

Now, can I see the same qualification from those who so blatently assert the existence of a deity?

No offence intended of course but why does theology always seem to find its way onto Science Forums? - I've got no excuse really, I studied Theology alongside my Physics degree.
« Last Edit: 20/04/2007 17:18:29 by Batroost »
 

Offline tony6789

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« Reply #435 on: 20/04/2007 18:00:09 »
yea i agrre with u there are many things that disprove god but there are also many that prove his existance
 

Offline that mad man

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« Reply #436 on: 20/04/2007 18:44:14 »
Ben6789.

Sin is a Christian concept that only applies to the Christian religion and those taught "the word of god" within it. The concept of sin does not appear until late into the bible (Romans) where Paul interpreted it differently. He had to as without sinning Christianity would mean nothing i.e. Jesus would not have died for OUR sins. God never mentions sin in Genesis, where it was supposed to happen nor did Jesus mention it. Also one reason the Jewish religion does not believe in sin.

The problem is that under the Christian religion there can be no salvation without sinning first as the whole Christian ideal depends on sin, redemption and being scared of God!

So sin is relative to what you believe, or not as it does not affect all.


Bee

 

Offline Seany

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« Reply #437 on: 20/04/2007 21:47:05 »
Also a parting thought.. isn't the devil a "good guy." I mean think about it. If he is punishing those who "betray god" isn't he sort of like an employee? lol. Like a jailer is to the legal system?

Cool! I never thought of it that way! But then again, Jesus would punish anyone who sins, but would always forgive. I don't think the devil forgives, and punishes them too much, just for their own sake and happiness.
 

Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #438 on: 20/04/2007 22:21:22 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).

Neither does Santa
 

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« Reply #439 on: 20/04/2007 22:43:16 »
yea i agrre with u there are many things that disprove god but there are also many that prove his existance

This is a contradiction.  You cannot simultaneously prove and disprove.  What you can say is that there is evidence for, and evidence against; but proof implies an absolute for which there can be no contrary.
 

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« Reply #440 on: 20/04/2007 23:22:31 »
Ben6789.

Sin is a Christian concept that only applies to the Christian religion and those taught "the word of god" within it. The concept of sin does not appear until late into the bible (Romans) where Paul interpreted it differently. He had to as without sinning Christianity would mean nothing i.e. Jesus would not have died for OUR sins. God never mentions sin in Genesis, where it was supposed to happen nor did Jesus mention it. Also one reason the Jewish religion does not believe in sin.

The problem is that under the Christian religion there can be no salvation without sinning first as the whole Christian ideal depends on sin, redemption and being scared of God!

So sin is relative to what you believe, or not as it does not affect all.

Bee

The word 'sin' has a roots in Latin and Germanic languages, so would not have existed as a word in the pre-Latin bible.  On the other hand, there is no doubt that God is supposed to have wrought punishment upon the Jews if the strayed from the path of righteousness; but for the Jews, the religion was more of a social instrument rather than a personal duty, and so in the Old Testament, one sees more often a communal punishment for the people as a whole, than a personal punishment for the individual (although, that having been said, one can look at the punishment met out to David and Bathsheba for their adulterous relationship.

Aside from that, both Hindu and Buddhist religions have the idea of leading a good life, free of evil, and the idea that if you do evil, it will rebound on you in the next life.  Unlike Christianity, the next life is not regarded as some other place (a heaven or a hell), but a reincarnation into this world, but with the burdens of the sins of your past lives placed upon your present life.  It is only when you have worked off all of your past evil deeds with good deeds, that you can free yourself from the cycle of reincarnation.

Different details, but not so very different in underlying ideas.

In fact, my own suspicion is that there is a fair degree of Hindu influence in Judaism, although I would not go as far as to say that Judaism evolved from Hinduism (or maybe Zoroastrianism), only that it evolved under the influence of these religions.
 

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« Reply #441 on: 21/04/2007 01:22:31 »
God is not a reason (as there is no God).

that is an extremely bold quote Batroost and my and i assume others probably dont appreciate that. You can express your opinion on this site but dont flat out say stuff like its a fact refer to it as your opinion. thx

Tony, can you prove there is a god, until you can them may we assume or have the opinion that there is no god because you can not prove it.



God uses these catastrophes to turn people to him. Sin also causes all of those. So you can't entirly blame God.

If there's a war..did God start that war? Or did people start that war?

..Or did natural sinful nature make us start that war?

If god was so almighty, why would he use war and catastrophies to get followers and believers? surely, he would use love and peace.

again i feel the quote from south park sums up what god does, if there is a god.

Stan: “Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny’s my friend. Why can’t God take someone else’s friend?”

Chef: “Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He’s all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can’t get over it, so he doesn’t care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don’t matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?”

Stan: “But then, why does God give us anything to start with?”

Chef: “Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin’ to cry about. That’s like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it’s our tears, Stan, that give God his great power.”

Stan: “I think I understand.”

 

Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #442 on: 21/04/2007 01:49:54 »
yea i agrre with u there are many things that disprove god but there are also many that prove his existance

This is a contradiction.  You cannot simultaneously prove and disprove.  What you can say is that there is evidence for, and evidence against; but proof implies an absolute for which there can be no contrary.

There is no evidence to believe in a god. Most people substitute god for a gap in their knowledge. It is true that you can't disprove god. Especially if you use the word god in a way that is ambiguous and unclear. That said just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean that the chances of it being true are 50/50. I would say given my currently knowledge of the cosmos I think it is highly unlikely a god (personal deity who answers prayers etc) exists.
 

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« Reply #443 on: 21/04/2007 02:56:08 »
There is no evidence to believe in a god.

Clearly untrue.

People do not arbitrarily believe in anything, however absurd that thing might be, without any evidence.  The evidence might be superficial.  The interpretation of that evidence might be flawed.  Despite all of that, there must be some reason why that thing was believed in, and another competing idea was not believed in, and that reason must be considered to be evidence, however weak and inadequate it might be.

Most people substitute god for a gap in their knowledge.

But is that not also much of the argument for dark matter - it is to fill a gap in our understanding of the way galaxies behave?

Any theory usually starts with an attempt to fill the gap in our knowledge, and then that theory is tested.  There are serious problems with testing the God theory, which places severe limits upon what that theory may now be used for (if anything); but simply saying that the theory is bad because it was created to fill a gap in our knowledge would condemn much of the theoretical model of the universe that we have today.

Incidentally, there are also severe problems with proving string theory, or many other grand cosmological theories; but that does not of itself falsify the theory, only for the time being limit the trust one can place in them.

It is true that you can't disprove god. Especially if you use the word god in a way that is ambiguous and unclear. That said just because something can't be disproven doesn't mean that the chances of it being true are 50/50. I would say given my currently knowledge of the cosmos I think it is highly unlikely a god (personal deity who answers prayers etc) exists.

Probabilities can be used to mean two things:
  • It can be used to express the number of times an event will happen.  This requires multiple occurrences of an event, and an ability to predict future occurrences of an event (e.g. throw a dice, and count the number of times you get a six).  This clearly is not a meaningful interpretation of probability when one is asking about the existence, or non existence, of a single deity.
  • The more meaningful use of the word probability is as a measure of confidence in one's prediction; but such a measure can only be given a useful probability if one can quantify the likely sources of error in one's prediction.  How would you go about quantifying the sources of error in predicting the absence of a God?
What might reasonably be argued from a purely philosophical perspective is that the concept of a God has no scientific or engineering utility; but the philosophical response to that is to ask whether scientific and engineering utility is an adequate definition of existence?

Clearly, from an economic perspective, engineering utility is paramount in our ability to create wealth and the lifestyle we have become accustomed to, but does that make it nonetheless the only arbiter of existence?  I should stress that I do not regard this as a rhetorical question, but a genuine question - should we regard engineering and scientific utility as the sole arbiter of existence, or should we allow other values to define existence (maybe other types of existence, or to extend a single notion of existence)?
 

Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #444 on: 21/04/2007 03:48:25 »
Clearly untrue?

Can you give me the evidence for believing in a god. I don't mean reasons why people believe. I know many reasons why people believe. I am saying when you look for evidence there is a severe lack of it. It always ends up coming down to faith. The god hypothesis has nothing to back it up. At least string theory has some fancy maths.

I know the current problems in physics. Mentioning them doesn't discount what I said.

Science for me answers questions that start with the word how. How did this happen? How did that come to be? for questions that start with why then I would perhaps look elsewhere. I am under the impression that the universe doesn't owe me a why. Why are we hear? Why is there something rather than nothing?

As for quantifying the sources or error in prediction the absence of a god. I would need a strict definition of the word god. With the multitude of definitions people give that word it makes the word almost meaningless. If god is what you call the wonder of nature then I am a believer. If you define god as the god of the bible then I am an atheist and not worried at all about going to hell.

Just a quick addition. Thanks for the reply George. You always make good points.
 

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« Reply #445 on: 21/04/2007 04:26:46 »
Clearly untrue?

Can you give me the evidence for believing in a god. I don't mean reasons why people believe. I know many reasons why people believe. I am saying when you look for evidence there is a severe lack of it.

I would say that substantially, reason and evidence, while not equivalent, do have a substantial overlap.

One aspect where one might look for 'evidence' is in faith healing.  The scientific answer would be the placebo effect, but if one wants to discount the scientific answer, one could look for religious answers.

A second piece of evidence might be that a society that believes in God is a more stable society, with stronger internal cohesion.  Scientific answers could look for psychological reasons for this, but again, if one discounts the scientific argument, you could give a religious argument that God rewards societies that believe in him.  Ofcourse, this same cohesion is why religion is often blamed for wars.

Another social argument for God (and probably one of the most important, in historic terms) is with regard to the hierarchy of power.  In a society where each individual is answerable to his master, a serf might be answerable to his lord, and a lord is answerable to his king, and the king must then be answerable to someone, and that someone would be God.  It is a logical progression. It must be so, since it was regarded that a man without a master was a man without a place in society, and thus a man without allegiance, and a man without morality; so if the king was to be regarded as a moral person, a person with a place in society, so he must have a master.

The point is that I am not saying that the evidence is unanswerable, only that the evidence clearly does exist, and did (at least in the pre-scientific age) give real reason to believe in God.


It always ends up coming down to faith. The god hypothesis has nothing to back it up. At least string theory has some fancy maths.

Having a mathematically constructed deity would not make the deity any more real.

Science for me answers questions that start with the word how. How did this happen? How did that come to be? for questions that start with why then I would perhaps look elsewhere. I am under the impression that the universe doesn't owe me a why. Why are we hear? Why is there something rather than nothing?

Yes, I would agree with this; as science also seeks to avoid asking the question 'who'.

The point is that in a society that is very person focused 'who' is an important question.  The modern world is a very materialistic world, where 'what' and 'how' are important, and 'who' and 'why' is totally unimportant.  Whether it is a good or a bad thing that we have moved from a world where the thing mattered less than the person, to one where the person is largely irrelevant, and the thing is the all important, might be speculated upon, but as a matter of fact, that is what has happened, and it is that shift from 'who' to 'what' that has moved us from 'God' to the Big Bang.


As for quantifying the sources or error in prediction the absence of a god. I would need a strict definition of the word god. With the multitude of definitions people give that word it makes the word almost meaningless. If god is what you call the wonder of nature then I am a believer. If you define god as the god of the bible then I am an atheist and not worried at all about going to hell.

Again, I do not disagree with any of the above; I was merely saying that making judgements as to whether the probability was 50/50, more so, or less so, was itself meaningless.

Just a quick addition. Thanks for the reply George. You always make good points.

Thank you  :) [^]
 

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« Reply #446 on: 21/04/2007 14:29:18 »
Lets bring this debate to a close:
No scientist can claim that there is no GOD.

As Feynman said- 'If it does not comply with experiment it is not science'-


but he also said "There are a lot of tricks of the mind and human perception that cause people to believe things they have no evidence for"

No Evidence, show us your evidence that there is a god.


WHERE SCIENTISTS IS YOUR EXPERIMENT TO PROVE GOD DOES NOT EXIST- You do not have one- you have no proff- No experiment- So that being the case any scientist that says there is no god- Is really not a scientist- Point in Fact.

No, No ,No. you must first show us the evidence that he/she does exist, then let us examine your evidence.


Atleast Feynman realised he had been a moron and repented.


So, Feynman was a moron eh. How are you qualified to call such a man such things? i Guess you have many papers published, a nobel prize, work at los alamos. I never knew you were so qualified.


and JESUS is free- to be who he wants to be- who are any of you to say how he will act or what he will say or do or dress- You all have some deluded fantasy of Jesus- Hopefully some of you will look when the time comes with open eyes and a loving heart. and not be blinded by your illusion.

P.s No one can garentee you a place in heaven- anyone says they can is working for satan. God decides no-one else.

Jesus is not free. you have collection plates and contributions. Now some religions do guarantee a place in heaven, so are they not actually religions?
 

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« Reply #447 on: 21/04/2007 15:27:04 »
Paul grow up. Its not my problem if you dont understand what I have said. And to say what you just did, shows you havent understood.

Jolly, yet again you have to stoop to a personal attack if someone does not agree with your position. Then what do you do? You go back and alter and add to your previous post!

How many times have you done this? if you look at your posts, a high percentage of them have an "edit". why edit your posts when you have received a reply? why not simply make a new post?

not only does this affect the reader, it shows that you can not hold your argument so resort to altering your original text to suit or make the replier look stupid.
 

Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #448 on: 21/04/2007 15:33:07 »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden or proof doesn't lay with the non believer. The person making the claim must provide the proof.
 

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« Reply #449 on: 21/04/2007 16:49:44 »
has nothing to do with that I see spelling mistakes and add to comments to improve them others edit theres as well- your comment is unvalid- trying to make out im cheating or somthing- silly I do not alter my text I correct the spelling mistakes and add to the text- on occasion I swap words around as it reads better. But then if you dont bother reading it whats the difference. 

I do not see the point in creating loads of new boxes it makes the forum huge- when it does not need to be and gives you a huge post count- I could careless about my post count.

spelling errors are one thing. i will be the first to admit that at times my spelling is so atrocious that i have to go back and correct it.

But i do not alter the text or make additions, swap words around!!! i do believe that a few posts ago you added:


"Marx, Freud, Einstien all jewish All I believe- belived in God-
Marxs attacked how religion was used by the elites to supress the poor- he did not attack God persay. Einstien said he didnt believe in a personnel God- but that could really be seen as him saying God is for everyone, not just the jews, he just said it in a vague way to stop himself being attacked by jews.

Decartes and Hume both believed in God- Fathers both of modern philsophy and impericism.... The list gos on and on- But then as a scientist you cannot deny God- to do so is unscientific- A leap of faith- There is no evidence against- and some towards- Your free- you choose. "


that is not spell checking or altering a few words!
 

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