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Author Topic: Do humans have free will?  (Read 29862 times)

Online yor_on

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Do humans have free will?
« Reply #50 on: 01/01/2011 19:36:44 »
Yep, nice definition Joe. On the individual plane we all have a free will.
 

SteveFish

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Do humans have free will?
« Reply #51 on: 01/01/2011 19:39:37 »
Yor_on. I will give this one more try. Please provide a definition of free will that will allow us to evaluate it in light of your notions regarding causality. Even more important, how would your definition of free will differentiate between a person making a decision and a complex computer program making a decision? Steve
 

SteveFish

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« Reply #52 on: 01/01/2011 19:44:32 »
Joe. I am willing to accept your definition if you will admit that this also means that my dog and the giant banana slug I just moved off the porch also have free will. If you don't agree, what is the difference. Steve
 

Online yor_on

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Do humans have free will?
« Reply #53 on: 01/01/2011 19:47:26 »
Look up my references Steve, then I hope you will see why I see it like I do. There are more things to it of course, but ain't it that way always? But they are a good staring point for what 'free will' might be. If you accept the basic premises I do. That we too, are a part of a physical system called 'SpaceTime'.
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #54 on: 01/01/2011 19:50:51 »
thx, i see better
i know that our doll is within another doll and the number of dolls can be infinity but i guess that not only our world is determined
the designer in the upper level should be determined as well
his world has rules as well
« Last Edit: 01/01/2011 19:53:28 by sliffy »
 

Online yor_on

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Do humans have free will?
« Reply #55 on: 01/01/2011 19:58:44 »
As for what differ a program with multiple choices and a human being?
Depends on how many choices that human sees, don't it?
The difference have to be in my question here :)

That is if you don't construct a quantum computer, or a analogue one with an infinity of possible 'choices', and also it seems to be a thing of 'magnifying/contracting' what 'reality' we look on as QM also seems to leave choices open, but hinged in by 'probability'.

So it becomes a very philosophical question if you want to narrow it down. I'm not trying to, I just look at what I think is significant for my understanding of 'SpaceTime' and when it comes to 'free will' I have this definition.
 

Online yor_on

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Do humans have free will?
« Reply #56 on: 01/01/2011 20:03:04 »
Well Sliffy, that depends on your own definition of what the world ultimately should be seen as. My view is that the world probably is a whole thing, and if we could see it that way the question about free will will become meaningless on that plane. But I don't expect any arrow to exist there either. The question of a 'free will' is meaningful only under our arrow as I see it.

(arrow of time)
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #57 on: 01/01/2011 20:13:06 »
you write: "free will will become meaningless on that plane"... >> why it is meaningless? do you agree that free will doesn't exist if our system is closed?
i can't imagine a closed system working by rules to be non-determined

 
 

SteveFish

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« Reply #58 on: 01/01/2011 20:37:05 »
Yor_on. What references are you referring to? Are you unwilling to give your own definition of free will? I don't accept your basic premises because you haven't actually laid them out in a logical manner. Do you actually think that the number of choices available to a person, or computer, is what defines free will? If you know what you think free will is, just define it. Steve
 

Online yor_on

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« Reply #59 on: 01/01/2011 21:00:43 »
Look Steve, I can see you want a ah, 'discussion' about it. I'm not interested, simple as that. I do not have the answer to the universe although I have my own opinions. The references was 'bifurcations' and then the 'Feigenbaum constant'.

And Sliffy, the 'thingie' that i expect to be 'whole' is not what we call SpaceTime. It's ? Well, it have to include the virtual aspects as well as what we see as those 'Russian dolls'. It's not anything I know how to specify, as there most probably will be more to it than what I can see. And our 'SpaceTime' and the the 'arrow' created by that I see as a consequence of it, with us infused with all that 'virtuality' etc. We 'exist' on many planes simultaneously if you look at it like that, the 'virtual world' being inside each one of us. So? My view that is :)
 

Online yor_on

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« Reply #60 on: 01/01/2011 21:10:15 »
Think about it Sliffy.
Where is your choice if you have no arrow of time to 'create' it in?
Also called 'causality chains'.
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #61 on: 01/01/2011 21:29:19 »
Joe. I am willing to accept your definition if you will admit that this also means that my dog and the giant banana slug I just moved off the porch also have free will. If you don't agree, what is the difference. Steve

Hi, Steve.  I agree that your dog and your slog have free will within their limitations.  You are one of their limitations.  Thanks for comments
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #62 on: 01/01/2011 22:21:03 »
yor_on,

you ask "where is my choice?"
i don't have choice... i'm a bio robot who makes his decisions by the input data getting on sense-organs in a ruled world
 

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« Reply #63 on: 01/01/2011 23:04:23 »
Joe, I am OK with such a loose definition, but I have one complaint. It was a banana slug, quite beautiful. I greatly expanded his/her free will for the future which would have been cut short by being stepped on. Steve
 

Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #64 on: 01/01/2011 23:11:13 »
Joe, I am OK with such a loose definition, but I have one complaint. It was a banana slug, quite beautiful. I greatly expanded his/her free will for the future which would have been cut short by being stepped on. Steve

Hi, Steve.  Yes, I forgot to state that you are one of their assets also.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
 

Online yor_on

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« Reply #65 on: 01/01/2011 23:44:19 »
We all have our own way of looking at reality.
And a free choice is something treated under an 'arrow of time'.
Without an arrow that concept loses its meaning.

It depends on how you define your 'system' :)
In yours?

Well, I'll leave that to your imagination.
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #66 on: 02/01/2011 07:54:21 »
in my definition: i would have free will if my decision wouldn't be calculable
but i see my decisions calculable so i think that my will isn't free

how do you define free will?
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #67 on: 02/01/2011 17:02:02 »
in my definition: i would have free will if my decision wouldn't be calculable
but i see my decisions calculable so i think that my will isn't free


I don't think they are calculable. I certainly cannot anticipate your future actions, and I doubt that you can either. Any calculation will result in an infinite number of possible actions, so we already know the answer before we do any calculation.
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #68 on: 02/01/2011 17:15:49 »
Greezer,

i didn't say that you, me or the designer can calculate the future... "calculable" doesn't mean that anybody has the capability to calculate
calculable means that our system works by rules so it's condition in the future is determined
- do you understand now what i mean?
- do you still say that our universe's future is non-determined?
if yes, please explain why?
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #69 on: 02/01/2011 18:30:05 »
It's not calculable if you can't predict the outcome.

For a system to be 100% predictable, it cannot react to any external variables, which means it must be entirely self contained.

Whenever a system has to react to external variables, the outcome cannot be 100% predictable. It's only possible to talk about the probability of certain outcomes.
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #70 on: 02/01/2011 18:38:42 »
yes, you are right but not only our system is determined... the other layers which contain our universe are also determined
even the designer's world is determined

it's not an assumption to be predictable... it doesn' matter if the designer (or god) can compute the future or not... the whole existence works by rules >> everything is determined
« Last Edit: 02/01/2011 18:40:30 by sliffy »
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #71 on: 02/01/2011 18:50:23 »
everything is determined

I don't think so. You can't even determine at precisely what temperature a simple thermostat will switch on or off.

The "I'm a computer" analogy isn't right either. Contrary to popular opinion, the outcome of any computer that reacts to external events is never 100% reliable, let alone predictable.
 

Offline rosy

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« Reply #72 on: 02/01/2011 19:01:29 »
It's perfectly possible that everything is "determined", but that's not the same as "predictable".

The behaviour of the human brain may be determined by the physics/biochemistry/etc of its existing state, but even leaving out any other kind of consideration, ionising radiation, has the potential to alter the chemistry of the DNA and other reactions and thus, ultimately, alter behaviour. So although free will may be illusory, it's still impossible to calculate behaviour (even if it were possible to compile a complete model of the state of the brain at a partcicular instant, which it wouldn't be).
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #73 on: 02/01/2011 19:13:25 »
rosy,

i agree...  :)
that's all i wanted to say... i don't say that you can predict the future... tis topic is not about that
i just say that if everything is determined than you have no free will
you are a robot
 

Offline sliffy

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« Reply #74 on: 02/01/2011 19:16:23 »
Greezer,
you don't understand me... i didn't say that me or someone else can determine anything
the whole existense is determined... read rosy's post... you may will understand
 

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