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Offline Soul Surfer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #25 on: 16/11/2010 12:58:18 »
The solar system does not work with the gravitational force alone.  You need to include the angular momentum of the moon and earth as they orbit each other to balance this gravitational force and the angular momentum of the moon the earth and the sun as they to orbit each other.  This has been fully understood and precisely predicted for hundreds of years.
 

Offline syedbukhari39

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« Reply #26 on: 16/11/2010 13:16:07 »
According to assumption the force that is controlling the whole universe is gravity as scientists said, My point of view is that if it is true than how can you justify and balance the forces between earth moon and sun.
In total sun eclipse the moon is in between the sun and earth in this case sun and earth both are  attracting the moon, then how do the moon is surviving 
 

Offline syedbukhari39

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« Reply #27 on: 16/11/2010 13:24:12 »
The solar system does not work with the gravitational force alone.  You need to include the angular momentum of the moon and earth as they orbit each other to balance this gravitational force and the angular momentum of the moon the earth and the sun as they to orbit each other.  This has been fully understood and precisely predicted for hundreds of years.
As i understand we are able to explain all mysterious things and phenomenas through another mysterious force i.e gravity
 
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #28 on: 16/11/2010 13:43:55 »
syedbukhari39  These things are in no way mysterious and gravitation comes naturally out of an understanding of the basic processes that drive our universe there are in fact very few numbers and coupling parameters that are needed.  Read the book "just six numbers" and that may help you understand how the rest of the scientific community understand how things work.  Just because you do not know or understand something that does not mean that it is not understandable.
 

Offline syedbukhari39

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #29 on: 16/11/2010 13:56:12 »
I am just discussing the gravity as mystery because this is just theory and there are many flaws in it and it also fails to explain many behaviors i will discuss it after a week
thanks
syedbukhari39  These things are in no way mysterious and gravitation comes naturally out of an understanding of the basic processes that drive our universe there are in fact very few numbers and coupling parameters that are needed.  Read the book "just six numbers" and that may help you understand how the rest of the scientific community understand how things work.  Just because you do not know or understand something that does not mean that it is not understandable.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #30 on: 16/11/2010 18:10:53 »
From the nature and development of this conversation I think that I should issue a Troll warning.  I have reported this topic
 

Offline Geezer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #31 on: 16/11/2010 18:53:53 »
It's clear that this topic is not a question. As no theory has even been proposed, it's not worthy of a New Theory. I'm moving it to Chat.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #32 on: 16/11/2010 19:45:38 »
According to gravitational law, every very massive particle [with mass] in the universe attracts every other massive particle [with mass] with a force which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.
Gravitation isn't limited to large objects - every atom (or any other particle with mass) attracts every other.

By keeping in mind how can you justify and balance the force between Earth, Sun and the Moon when there is a total eclipse of Sun or in normal conditions.
In what way could you possibly think that an eclipse would have any impact on gravitation?
In a technical sense (like this thread)  "massive" means "having (any) mass".
However since this thread is balderdash it hardly matters.
Syedbukhari,
you have asked the question the wrong way round about the Sun and Earth.
Since we know that they are spinning round eachother, how come the Earth (which is the lighter of the two) doesn't get flung off into space?


The answer is that it's held in place by gravity.
Without gravity the earth and sun would have parted company long ago.

The same applies to the moon and the earth and the eclipses have nothing much to do with it. If I put my hand over something I cast a shadow on it, but that doesn't stop gravity holding it down.
 

Offline Bill S

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #33 on: 16/11/2010 20:12:06 »
 If there is trollery afoot, perhaps this thread should be left to expire quietly.  However, I have some sympathy with Syedbukhari, because I have spent quite a lot of time wrestling with the fact that gravity appears to be a force, or not a force, according to taste, or more precisely, according to the point one is making.
Also, as far as the eclipse scenario is concerned Syedbukhari may be making the point that it is then that the sun and Earth would seem to be in direct conflict over "possession" of the moon.
Finally, Soul Surfer, I totally agree that "Just because you do not know or understand something that does not mean that it is not understandable",but nor does it mean that you should not struggle to achieve that understanding, even if others find your inability frustrating.  Amen.  [xx(]
 
 

Offline peppercorn

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #34 on: 17/11/2010 09:13:08 »
In a technical sense (like this thread)  "massive" means "having (any) mass".

Yes, I had understood that be the case, but as Syedbukhari appeared to be struggling with everyday English terminology in places I left it at that.

"...the Earth (which is the lighter of the two)" - shouldn't this be heavier?

[It is perfectly normal that one might] struggle to achieve an understanding, even if others find your inability frustrating.

I agree whole-heartedly Bill.  Syedbukhari, I think you have made some poor assumptions that have led you astray in this case; that is all.
« Last Edit: 17/11/2010 09:29:57 by peppercorn »
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #35 on: 17/11/2010 21:03:59 »
My long and detailed experience of internet trolls is they often start by feigning poor English but rapidly change as they manage to succeed in getting other members of the chat page to argue with each other.  They live on the creation of arguments and dissent between others.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #36 on: 18/11/2010 07:20:40 »


"...the Earth (which is the lighter of the two)" - shouldn't this be heavier?


No
The earth is lighter than the sun (unless you don't believe in gravity).
The last thread on this was closed because it was clear that Fleep was a troll or an idiot (or both). I think this thread should suffer the same fate.
 

Offline Geezer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #37 on: 18/11/2010 08:27:33 »
I think this thread should suffer the same fate.

It does seem to be heading in that general direction. Rats! I think I've just spun it up again.
 

Offline peppercorn

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #38 on: 18/11/2010 10:45:07 »
"...the Earth (which is the lighter of the two)" - shouldn't this be heavier?
No
The earth is lighter than the sun (unless you don't believe in gravity).
D'oh!
Dumbass here read it as Earth or Moon (not Sun)! Started thinking about density and, well confusion took hold! ;D
*although actually, having now been converted to syed's view, it is clear that gravity is a sham!* ;)
 

Offline JP

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #39 on: 18/11/2010 11:44:55 »
Gravity is clearly a conspiracy invented by those who want to sell weight loss products!
 

Offline Geezer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #40 on: 18/11/2010 17:58:10 »
Sir Isaac Newton told us why
An apple falls down from the sky,
And from this fact, it’s very plain,
All other objects do the same.
A brick, a bolt, a bar, a cup
Invariably fall down, not up,
And every common working tool
Is governed by the self-same rule.
So when you handle tools up there,
Let your watchword be “Take Care “.
If at work you drop a spanner,
It travels in a downward manner.
At work, a fifth of accidents or more
Iillustrate old Newton’s law,
But one thing he forgot to add,
The damage won’t be half as bad
If you are wearing proper clothes,
Especially on your head and toes.
These hats and shoes are there to save
The wearer from an early grave.
So best feet forward and take care
About the kind of shoes you wear,
It’s better to be sure than dead,
So get a hat and keep your head.
Don’t think to go without is brave;
The effects of gravity can be grave….

UK public information film from the fifties.

 

Offline syedbukhari39

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #41 on: 18/11/2010 20:12:47 »
Sir Isaac Newton told us why
An apple falls down from the sky,
And from this fact, it’s very plain,
All other objects do the same.
A brick, a bolt, a bar, a cup
Invariably fall down, not up,
And every common working tool
Is governed by the self-same rule.

This is the point that i am trying to explain, when Newton saw an apple falling from the tree, he made a final decesion to make a theory without observing further things and put the whole science in a dark hole
I am wondering why we are not trying to make the use of mind and logic.
We are worshing this like a holy cocept or book and do not tolerate to listen any thing against this theory and this behavior unable us to discover the truth.
Why does a hydrogen filled balloon escape from the influnce of this powerfull force of gravity on the  other hand sun,earth and moon are dependent of this spirtual force for their survival.
Try to get the answer.I will be back after two days and will tell you the real medium that is controlling the entire process.
I am very thankful to the people those trying and want to know the truth.
« Last Edit: 18/11/2010 20:55:09 by peppercorn »
 

Offline Geezer

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #42 on: 18/11/2010 21:17:01 »
I will be back after two days and will tell you the real medium that is controlling the entire process.

We await your return with bated breath  ;D

Please be prepared to show us the math.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #43 on: 19/11/2010 07:18:59 »
I will be back after two days and will tell you the real medium that is controlling the entire process.

We await your return with bated breath  ;D

Please be prepared to show us the math.

Or to be laughed at.
 

Offline JP

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« Reply #44 on: 19/11/2010 12:03:25 »
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #45 on: 19/11/2010 14:10:01 »
 ;D

31. 30 points for claiming that your theories were developed by an extraterrestrial civilization (without good evidence). 
 

Offline peppercorn

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #46 on: 19/11/2010 14:26:55 »
Some light reading in the meantime.

I think we should encourage point 13!  -
"10 points for offering prize money to anyone who proves and/or finds any flaws in your theory."
 

Offline Geezer

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« Reply #47 on: 19/11/2010 18:35:14 »
Some light reading in the meantime.

We may have to make that a sticky.

I think he left out;

"Using Mainstream as a pejorative adjective"

"Claiming The Science Channel is an authoritative source."
 

Offline syedbukhari39

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #48 on: 20/11/2010 08:53:13 »
Whole the universe is designed with a great symmetry, planning and followed by some principals. Nothing can happen without any reason. Same is the case with the falling apple;
When Newton saw an apple falling from the tree, he tried his best to get the result but failed to do so. Then he finally put the responsibility of this falling behavior on an invisible, occult, mysterious and hypothetical force. Newton totally ignores the behaviors of other suspended and up going objects in the atmosphere. Later on he put and fitted this force to all those places and systems that were difficult to explain like solar system.
According to gravitational law, every massive particle in the universe attracts every other massive particle with a force which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.
By using the formula G*m1*m2/d²
 Calculated value of force between Earth and Moon is 2.1233E20 N approx
and between Sun and Moon is 4.351E20 N approx. which is much higher than the force between Earth and Moon. Then how is the solar system working and existing in the light of Gravitational force? It is quite illogical and false to explain the Solar system through Gravitational force.

By keeping in mind how can you justify and balance the force between Earth, Sun and the Moon when there is a total eclipse of Sun as shown in the above picture.

Now discuss the effectiveness of Gravitation Force on the Earth.

Let’s consider the example of the Newton’s apple, indeed it required some reason to fell down. Actually every thing requires some medium to perform an action except air, light, water and ether. When the apple became denser it lost its connection with the tree because it became denser, when it lost its connection with the tree it became associated with the new medium i.e. air. Now the density of air was less than the density of apple it caused the apple to fell down because of density difference not the gravity.
Let’s take another example, fill one balloon with atmospheric air and the other with the hydrogen or any other lighter gas than air. Now release both the balloons in the atmosphere you will see the ordinary air filled balloon will fell down on the surface and the balloon fill with lighter gas will get upward direction. Balloons have the same sizes and material then what causes the difference in their behaviors although the gravity is there that can force the balloons to come down but fails to do so.
How can you justify different behaviors under one powerful gravitational force that is on one side controlling the whole solar system and on the other hand fails to control a small balloon?
Now take another example
Drop a stone from the top of the building in to the water tank it will fell down because the stone is more dense than air and when it touches the second medium that is water it will continue its distance and will rest on the bottom of the tank because here again the stone is more dense than water. There are many more examples to discuss this topic.
By considering the above examples it is quite clear there is nothing like gravitational force. The only thing that causes the change in behaviors is the difference in densities of medium. The factor that is controlling the change in state of the objects is the density difference. If the gravitational force exists then it should attract a less dense object more quickly and rapidly than a denser object.
As we know the theory of gravity is just a theory not a law and there are many flaws in this theory. It is quite interesting that no one can calculate gravity for every object.

There are many more examples to elaborate the flaws present in gravitational theory. We are presenting the Gravity just like James bond, who is present everywhere and controlling the whole system but does not exist in real life.
On the other hand by following the basic principal of density difference between the object and the medium you can easily explain the behaviors of the object i.e. any thing that is less dense than the reference medium will go up and the denser will go down.
This concept is quite clear, logical, and observable.

 

Before carrying out an experiment we have to determine and mentioned the basic parameters and standard.
In Cavendish experiment we do not know the following parameters
1)   Air Pressure
2)   Direction of air
3)   Masses and the densities of M and m
4)   Distance between M and m
5)   Height of the  rope/string
6)   Nature of the string
7)   Polarity of M and m
8)   Material (iron,steel,plastic wood etc) of M and m
9)   Is it shows the same results for different materials as the gravity is constant for all the objects?
10)   Is this experiment gives the same results all the time in all conditions?

Cavendish experiment helped the scientists to explain the solar system and they adopted the results without any further investigation
We should consider that there is nothing infinite and absolute in this world except God. The concept of infinite space and infinite time is wrong and also the concept of infinite universe is wrong. The universe is surrounded by a dense cloudy material that is in motion. and all the planets moon and sun are moving due to the circular motion of this cloudy material . Above the blanket of this dense material Allah Almighty is Present, Governing and controlling the whole Universe with extreme discipline.
This can be explained by the following example:

 
                                       
                                    Behavior of different balls on water surface


Use a tank filled with water and stirred it with stirrer after some time remove the stirrer from the water tank now put some balls on the surface of water at different distance and put one ball in the center . You will observe that the balls nearer to center will complete their rotation in short time as compared to the balls away from the center and the central ball will only rotate around its axis. Same is the case with our Solar system. The dense cloudy material is in circular motion and all the planets, sun and moon are revolving around their orbits. When this circular motion of dense material become finish then whole the universe will collide with each other and the final day will become i.e. Judgment Day.     
There are many more examples to prove and support this theory of difference in densities.
There is always some chance of improvement in every field. In today’s science, we are improving, upgrading and précising the standards in order to get the better and improved results.
I am presenting this for an open debate. I will be pleased if any one point out the flaws in it. But the objections should be logical and based on facts.
Let's try to discuss it with open mind and heart not just only for opposition.
« Last Edit: 20/11/2010 11:18:30 by peppercorn »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #49 on: 20/11/2010 16:55:19 »
"In Cavendish experiment we do not know the following parameters
1)   Air Pressure
2)   Direction of air
3)   Masses and the densities of M and m
4)   Distance between M and m
5)   Height of the  rope/string
6)   Nature of the string
7)   Polarity of M and m
8)   Material (iron,steel,plastic wood etc) of M and m
9)   Is it shows the same results for different materials as the gravity is constant for all the objects?
10)   Is this experiment gives the same results all the time in all conditions?"
In the real world, rather than one where gravity doesn't exist and where this whole thread makes sense, we do know most of those things.

Cavendish was a good experimenter and will have logged most of them like the masses and distances.
There are some like #10 which no single experiment can show, but we have been using spring balances (and the more modern equivalents) for a long time. We know by direct experiment that gravity hasn't changed much since Cavendish's day.
We lso have historical records of eclipses and such that show that the moon's orbit hasn't changed much for centuries and we know from things like Stonehenge that the orbit of the earth round the Sun hasn't changed much in several thousand years.
That's not proof that it will never change, but its perfectly good evidence that it's stable.
You, on the other hand, have offered precisely no evidence to support your strange notions.

Incidentally I suspect that, if God existed, He would prefer to be left out of this.

We are more likely to be convinced by evidence and sound maths than by trying to appeal to God as a witness (Unless, of course, He actually turns up and tells us you are right).


 

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Discussion against gravity
« Reply #49 on: 20/11/2010 16:55:19 »

 

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