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Author Topic: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only  (Read 9694 times)

another_someone

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #25 on: 08/03/2006 14:41:07 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

I was talking about criminal violence sorry I should have made that clear.




But what I was saying is that crime is substantially arbitrary.  What may be legal violence to one generation can become criminal violence to the next.

In many societies, particularly where the writ of central government is week, blood feuds are still common practice how does this fit into your notion of criminal violence?

quote:


A clip around the the legs, is done to benefit the child. Its the way of nature, the way of many species to teach their young right from wrong. NATURE KNOWS BEST. and so shouldnt be class as a violent act, in my opinion. So even if smacking was made illegal i would never class someone a criminal for smacking their child, provided it was used as a last resort or for something which required an immediate response, like if a child did something life threatening.




The point is that it is a violent act.  I would agree with you that it should not be classed as a criminal act, but that would not alter the fact that it is a violent act.

In the past, a man could legally hit his wife, just as an employer could legally hit his servant (and flogging aboard ship was commonplace).  All of this would today be considered criminal violence, but it has not become any more a matter of violence than it ever was, but it has become criminal.

quote:

 

I don't think wars should be included and on the whole are fought mainly by people who have no choice but to take part,its criminal intent if a war has criminal intent is born by the few who order the war, Hitler for example




But again, you are confusing criminal with violent.

Wars are violent even if there is no criminality involved, and one may even suggest that those who instigate wars may not even be violent people themselves, leaving the violence to be carried out by others.





George
 

another_someone

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #26 on: 08/03/2006 15:28:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape

Hitler was criminally insane probably because of the thrashings he got as a boy. It is not genetic to be psycopathic I hear.




http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/002792.html
quote:

Dr Viding's research looked into the factors that contribute to antisocial behaviour in children with and without psychopathic tendencies. By studying sets of 7-year-old twins, Dr. Viding and her colleagues were able to pinpoint to what extent antisocial behaviour in these two groups was caused by genetic and/or environmental risk factors.
A sample of 3687 twin pairs formed the starting point for this research. Teacher ratings for antisocial behaviour and psychopathic tendencies (i.e. lack of empathy and remorse) were used to classify the twins. Those who were in the top 10% of the sample for antisocial behaviour were separated into two groups - those with and without psychopathic tendencies.
Following analysis, the results showed that, in children with psychopathic tendencies, antisocial behaviour was strongly inherited. In contrast, the antisocial behaviour of children who did not have psychopathic tendencies was mainly influenced by environmental factors. These findings are in line with previous research showing that children with psychopathic tendencies are at risk to continue their antisocial behaviour and are often resistant to traditional forms of intervention.





quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape

But I wrote this thread about a possible drug to give someone with depression or Schizophrenia since if their children are as is unlikely, born with a propensity to suffer the illnesses, then from it, depression or delusions, they may commit suicide and the father's efforts are in vain and the family is at a loss.




But the point is that one treats a mental condition only when that mental condition begins to interfere with the individuals ability to function within their society.  The fact that one has a genetic tendency to a condition, and that this condition may manifest itself in ways that can interfere with the functioning of the individual within society, does not mean that it is inevitable that the genetic predisposition will interfere with the persons ability to function within society, and in a mild form, it is possible that the condition may actually help the person to function within the society.

It could well be that by removing the genetic tendency to that which you regard as a disease, when manifest in its extreme form, may actually cause greater problems by removing the benefits that genetic predisposition might create when manifest in its milder forms.

quote:


I don't know of genes which make a person violent or a criminal.



http://www.rso.cornell.edu/scitech/archive/96fal/behav.html
quote:

   Some studies have, nonetheless, pointed to a genetic basis for violence. In 1993, investigators in the Netherlands reported the discovery of what seemed to be an aggression gene, perhaps akin to that which Stephen Mobley claims to run in his family. Biochemical evidence supported the link between the particular mutant, or altered, gene and aggressive behavior.
  The gene coded for an enzyme involved in the metabolism of certain chemicals that transmit signals within the brain and nervous system. Urinalysis of subjects in the Dutch study, all of whom were related and demonstrated aggressive and antisocial behavior, showed abnormal levels of metabolic products associated with the enzyme. The affected individuals lacked the ability to produce the enzyme, and this deficiency may have led to their antisocial behavior.



Apart from the question of whether genes would directly affect the level of violence a person displays, genetic factors do affect a persons ability to communicate, and people who have a violent predisposition are often (though there are clearly exceptions)  poor verbal communicators, and resort to violence because they fail to communicate in any other way (another correlation to this is that women tend to be better verbal communicators then men, and correspondingly tend towards less violence although I am aware of the risks of assuming that correlation equates to causation).

quote:


Violence should be avoided by women choosing their husbands well and by correct teaching and firm laws and policing.




Most women do not choose violent husbands, but many women are attracted by masculine traits that are often correlated with underlying violent tendencies; but it is not the violence itself that they see, or are aware of.

Unfortunately, mate selection is rarely rational, nor subject to rational judgement (excepting in the case of arranged marriages) .  Women do not decide to fall in love with violent men, they fall in love with whoever they fall in love with, and so long as we choose marriage partners by deciding who it is we fall in love with, suggesting that women should not marry violent men is somewhat futile.



George
 

another_someone

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #27 on: 08/03/2006 16:02:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

I wouldnt call it brainwashing George, I think in this case thats quite a strong term. If we could somehow elucidate that its wise to think first rather than be so quick to raise arms then we could be well on the way to effecting change and growth without the need to physically act out rebellion. Im not for creating a social system that has done away with violence Im just for a social system that does not resort to the violent side with such verve and alacrity.




I would suggest that any educational system has an element of brainwashing in it at least insofar as it contains anything in the way of behavioural education pure knowledge based education, that does not include behavioural training, may be regarded as without any element of brainwashing.

In the general direction of your point, I would agree with you.  The risk I was alluding to was that if we ever developed a behavioural training regime that would be so powerful as to achieve a total elimination of violence within the community, we would have developed a tool that would be too powerful for us safely to handle.  It is merely that that which is valuable in moderation, should nonetheless be kept in moderation.

quote:


If violence is always the last resort then violence will always rule. As long as people have that comfort factor that they can always turn to violence then they may turn to it quicker before considering less violent alternatives




Not necessarily.

Every choice of action one makes carries a cost and carries a risk associated with it.  If you can provide a choice of action that carries lower cost and lower risk to the individual than would choosing a violent course of action, then no matter that violence will remain the last resort, it is no longer the most cost effective resort.  At the same time, one can seek to increase the cost and risks associated with using violence, and thus further increase the advantage in using non-violent means; but clearly, simply increasing the costs associated with violence without providing a lower cost alternative would not achieve the desired goal.

Ofcourse, the above is highly idealised, and there are clearly some objectives for which one would not choose to facilitate any means, violent or otherwise, to assist in its being achieved; but nonetheless, insofar as it is practical, providing lower cost alternatives to violence is the only way that one can hope to retain violence as a last resort but not a first resort.

In this, again, there is a clear role for education, insofar as it may help enable people to utilise the alternatives given, but again, it can only help them use that which is available to be used, and if the tool is not made available, then no amount of education will enable its use.



George
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #28 on: 08/03/2006 17:48:16 »
getting back to the original topic: there are many things that haven't been totally thought through in the original post.  however, even disregarding teh etchnical aspects, its still not a good idea.  The more genetically diverse a population is, the healthier that population is as a whole (although it may contain many weaker individuals) becasue it is more likely to have the ability to overcome a given environmental challenge.  Any science that involves cutting out diversity in the human gene pool is bad science for humanitie's sake.

Are YOUR mice nude? ;)
 

another_someone

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #29 on: 08/03/2006 17:54:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer

getting back to the original topic: there are many things that haven't been totally thought through in the original post.  however, even disregarding teh etchnical aspects, its still not a good idea.  The more genetically diverse a population is, the healthier that population is as a whole (although it may contain many weaker individuals) becasue it is more likely to have the ability to overcome a given environmental challenge.  Any science that involves cutting out diversity in the human gene pool is bad science for humanitie's sake.




That was pretty much what my first post on this amounted to.

We know that some genes that are harmful in the current situation we find ourselves in nonetheless can also provide protection to some threats, while other genes we simply do not know in which circumstances they may prove to be beneficial.  You remove the gene from the gene pool, and it wont be there when you need it.



George
 

Offline Titanscape

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #30 on: 10/03/2006 13:55:16 »
If you look at 200 people suffering from Schizophrenia, do they really benefit family and society more than 200 healthy ones? If you had a choice between a healthy child or one suffering mild delusions, which would you choose Another Someone?

I might say though, I like your open mindedness and accepting non racist point of view.

Titanscape
 

another_someone

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #31 on: 10/03/2006 18:14:56 »
quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape

If you look at 200 people suffering from Schizophrenia, do they really benefit family and society more than 200 healthy ones? If you had a choice between a healthy child or one suffering mild delusions, which would you choose Another Someone?




I think you are missing the point.  In fact, you are missing three points.

Firstly,  schizophrenics are not only  schizophrenics, they are total human beings.  If the question was whether I was given a choice between my child being a  schizophrenic, and all other things being equal, that same child not growing up to be a  schizophrenic, then clearly I would prefer the latter.  The point is that all other things are never equal, and the question may well be whether he might have a a period of  schizophrenia, but some very good periods outside of that, it may well be that his life might be better than the alternative child who did not have  schizophrenia but neither had the good periods outside of that.  We cannot say what else might be altered by removing that  schizophrenia.

But, beyond the issue of what might have changed for my child, the question of what might happen if we removed the gene for  schizophrenia affects not only my hypothetical children, but also my hypothetical grandchildren.  What we cannot say is whether in removing the spectre of  schizophrenia from my child's life, we might also be removing some far more beneficial trait from my grandchild's life, a grandchild who may have been spared the actual curse of  schizophrenia, yet may have benefited in some other way from those same genes.

Another thing to bear in mind regarding the specific example of  schizophrenia is that, unlike sickle cell anaemia,  Huntington's Disease, or haemophilia;  schizophrenia is not of itself an inherited disease.  There may indeed be an inherited predisposition to  schizophrenia, but as I understand it  schizophrenia is induced by social stress, often by social isolation (it seems more common in immigrant communities because they are more isolated from the mainstream of society).

But beyond the specifics of  schizophrenia, and looking at the basic assumption of your question, one may as well ask whether I would rather that my child grew up to be President of the USA (or, as a Brit, more realistically Prime Minister of the UK), or a refuse collector.  All things being equal, one might suggest that one would prefer one's child to become a political leader than a refuse collector; yet if every child was born to be President, then who would collect the refuse?



George
 

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Re: Selecting Healthy Sex Cells Only
« Reply #31 on: 10/03/2006 18:14:56 »

 

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