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Offline stevebtaylor

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« on: 11/12/2010 18:42:31 »
this is a proposal for the formation of the neutron.

both the proton and the neutron are reportedly the same size, even though the neutron contains a proton and an electron.
the easiest way for this to happen is if the electron is captured in a magnetic bond with the proton.
prior to neutron formation the charges would be in motion, each producing a magnetic field. the electron accelerates gravitationally towards the opposite charged proton and is captured in a mutual magnetic bond. charges moving in the same direction form magnetic fields that draw them together and maintain field lines between them.

in this way a neutron is formed by electromagnetism.


 

Offline JP

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #1 on: 13/12/2010 03:24:46 »
The problem is that we can probe what the neutron is made of and it doesn't behave like an electron and a proton bound together my magnetism or gravity. 
« Last Edit: 13/12/2010 03:28:17 by JP »
 

Offline stevebtaylor

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #2 on: 13/12/2010 17:04:00 »
no, it doesn't behave like a proton and electron bound together. but it does seem that the magnetic bond offers the simpler solution to neutron production.
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #3 on: 13/12/2010 17:20:58 »
the bohr radius is the stable point for an electron.
to raise it above that point requires energy.
lowering it below that point also requires energy.

the energy required to reduce the electrons orbit
to the size of the nucleus is substantial.
that is why the mass of the neutron is more than
the mass of an electron plus the mass of a proton.

that is also why neutrons are unstable.
they spontaneously break apart and release a great deal of energy.

the force required to hold the proton and electron together must be considerable.

if magnetism were strong enough to hold them together then why wouldnt the electric field be strong enough to hold them together?


« Last Edit: 13/12/2010 17:23:05 by granpa »
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #4 on: 13/12/2010 18:01:07 »
if a positive charge of +1 is evenly distributed within a sphere of radius 1
and a negative charge of -1 is evenly distributed within a sphere of radius r
where r>1
then the total energy contained in the field between 0 and r is by my calculations
3/5(1/r^3 - 3/r + 2)

the derivative of this is
 = 9/5(r^2 - r^4)

so you have an attractive inverse square law at large r (1.4<r) and a nonphysical repulsive inverse fourth power law which dominates at small r (1<r<1.4)
the 2 canceling out completely at r=1

my calculations should always be double checked though.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2010 00:21:41 by granpa »
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #5 on: 13/12/2010 20:25:35 »
Neutron magnetic moment       9.6623707e-27    J T-1
Proton magnetic moment         1.4106076e-26    J T-1
Electron magnetic moment       9.2847701e-24   J T-1


Neutron magnetic moment in nuclear magnetons      1.91304275
Proton magnetic moment in nuclear magnetons        2.79284738
Electron magnetic moment in nuclear magnetons      1838.282
« Last Edit: 13/12/2010 20:43:28 by granpa »
 

Offline stevebtaylor

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #6 on: 14/12/2010 17:17:17 »
 are you saying that a magnetic bond is impossible for neutron formation, or that it would require more energy to form?
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #7 on: 14/12/2010 20:09:51 »
I anticipated a massive release of energy at the last moment when the fields totally collapsed at r=1 but that isnt what the math shows.
the math says the attractive force is inverse square all the way down. no inverse cube or higher.

non-relativistically speaking the energy in the magnetic field is equal to the energy in the electric field when v=c

I have no idea what happens when you factor in relativity and allow speeds very close to c

the biggest issue here is the magnetic moment of the electron is 1000 times bigger than the magnetic moment of a neutron.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2010 20:18:36 by granpa »
 

Offline stevebtaylor

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #8 on: 15/12/2010 19:09:52 »
granpa, is it an orbiting electron that has a magnetic moment?
What is offered here is the proton and electron bonded equally to each other.
This model attempts simplified explanations with charge, field and movement.
Before neutron formation there is pretty well only charge and electro-magnetism.
[whitespace removed]
« Last Edit: 15/12/2010 19:36:47 by peppercorn »
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #9 on: 15/12/2010 22:17:13 »
even a bare electron has a magnetic moment
magnetic moment is, like angular momentum, a conserved quantity.

It seems to me that you need a 'strong force' to hold the electron at such a small size.

:-)
« Last Edit: 15/12/2010 22:34:41 by granpa »
 

Offline stevebtaylor

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #10 on: 16/12/2010 16:55:51 »
with this model, the attempt is to use only charge, field and motion.
a nucleus is not stable until Helium, where the neutron is paired with a proton to form the protium ion and that ion is doubled to form Helium.
it seems to be electromagnetic at each step.
at what point in this process are the nuclear forces created?
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #11 on: 16/12/2010 18:46:48 »
proton + neutron = deuteron

all nucleons interact with all other nucleons by the nuclear force
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #12 on: 17/12/2010 07:14:02 »
Neutron magnetic moment       9.6623707e-27    J T-1
Proton magnetic moment         1.4106076e-26    J T-1
Electron magnetic moment       9.2847701e-24   J T-1


Neutron magnetic moment in nuclear magnetons      1.91304275
Proton magnetic moment in nuclear magnetons        2.79284738
Electron magnetic moment in nuclear magnetons      1838.282

electron s = 1/2
proton s = 1/2
neutron s = 1/2

spin angular momentum S:


angular momentum μ:



neutron spin g =−3.826= 2 *-1.91300
proton spin g= 5.585= 2 * 2.7925
electron spin g= 2.002319= 2 * 1.0011595



« Last Edit: 17/12/2010 15:48:10 by granpa »
 

Offline stevebtaylor

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #13 on: 17/12/2010 16:14:22 »
the deuteron is the correct term, not protium.
quantum electrodynamics calls the nuclear force a residual effect of the strong nuclear force mediated by gluons on quarks, anti-quarks and other gluons.
this is not new to me, rather unsatisfying.
At what point during the formation of neutrons and the nucleus are the nuclear forces created? this may sound like a rhetorical question, but they can not just be floating around everywhere anticipating element building.
 

Offline granpa

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #14 on: 17/12/2010 23:24:04 »
well the nuclear force holds multinucleon nuclei together.
the strong force holds multiquark particles together.
There is also the question of what holds individual charges together.

the mainstream answer is that individual charges are point particles and dont require anything to hold them together.

 

Offline stevebtaylor

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #15 on: 18/12/2010 15:52:08 »
granpa, thank you for your responses and effort. the questions asked may paint me into another category, however, and your views on this will be appreciated.
because electromagnetism is the only know force to exist at all distance and size levels, it should also exist at nuclear and sub-nuclear distances.
so my new question is whether the nuclear forces should be interpreted in electro-magnetic terms?
are the nuclear forces the result of differentiation of fields at some small fraction of the electromagnetic wavelength?
do electro-magnetism forces separate at the nuclear level with only its parts perceived?
mainstream answers aren't going to answer these but this is the direction of my quest.
 

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neutron formed by magnetic fields
« Reply #15 on: 18/12/2010 15:52:08 »

 

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