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Author Topic: Are wormholes real?  (Read 13704 times)

Offline imatfaal

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Are wormholes real?
« Reply #25 on: 21/12/2010 12:08:29 »
QC - so is that a 'no' you can't/won't provide any good references? 

Just going by Wikipedia - I note that my view is not controversial.  I am just wondering how you can be so certain - you seem to be equating mathematically hypothetical exotic matter with the merely very unusual (like a bose-einstein condensate).  The BE-cond is a good example of what I am asking - are you stating that matter with negative mass is like the BE-condensate, ie has been shown to be mathematically consistent and will be found when the circumstances can be duplicated, or that is it merely a theoretical construct?  Frankly neither of the above tally with your remarks about these substances existing in labs, being real and tangible, and experimental fact
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #26 on: 21/12/2010 12:57:51 »
Did I ever say ''no''?

I asked you if ''do you really find the tangibility of negative matter different to ordinary matter?''

I found your objection to this, interesting and surprising.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #27 on: 21/12/2010 13:13:24 »
As it is, I am looking for references. References on the negative energy of the casimir effect is not well-documented on the net.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #28 on: 21/12/2010 13:27:52 »
I knew I wasn't imagining this stuff up;

''Casimir effect and propulsion

The Casimir effect has been linked to the possibility of faster-than-light travel because of the fact that the region inside a Casimir cavity has negative energy density.''

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/C/Casimir.html
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #29 on: 21/12/2010 13:33:06 »
''
One of the more interesting aspects of A and W plot of fig [1] are the convoluted shapes of the constant energy curves especially in the negative energy region.''

http://www.fdscience.org/1/aiaa983140.pdf
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #30 on: 21/12/2010 16:20:58 »
I asked you if ''do you really find the tangibility of negative matter different to ordinary matter?''
I found your objection to this, interesting and surprising.

Tangible means real, concrete, and touchable; something that only exists as a hypothetical construct is not tangible.  This back-and-forth started when it was discussed where the exotic matter needed to keep only a wormhole in Kip Thorne's idea would come from, and you said inter alia "however, we cannot make much of this in the lab"   You have said on other occasions that it is experimental fact and real/tangible.  So far all I have seen is a mathematical interpretation of the casimir and two non-peer reviewed papers.  I understand mass energy equivalence, but I cannot leap from imbalances in the quantised zpe to the physical existence of negative mass matter.  I am trying to get hold of the Ambjorn Wolfram paper to read but with no success.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #31 on: 21/12/2010 16:37:14 »
Of course you can touch negative matter, if it existed... It is a dynamical quality which theory uses to thread wormholes with to keep them open. How more tangible do you need the matter to be?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #32 on: 21/12/2010 16:38:11 »
Matter interacts with matter, depending on what forces that matter interacts with. As you will see from my links, this is not a matter of it being hypothetical. It is a matter of experimental fact - there is a region within the cavity of the casimir effect which exhibits what we would call a negative energy. It's very very small, but it does exist within the theory, and if theory is correct, we have been making this stuff for a while.
« Last Edit: 21/12/2010 16:39:49 by QuantumClue »
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #33 on: 21/12/2010 17:30:22 »
QC I think I will give up - how much more tangible do I need matter to be?  For it to be tangible it must exist!  Nothing you have provided convinces me that you are not extrapolating like crazy.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #34 on: 21/12/2010 17:34:31 »
Around 70% of the energy in the universe is negative and is making the universe expand faster than light. How much more tangibility do you need?
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #35 on: 21/12/2010 17:58:22 »
Now you are grasping at straws - the universal expansion is possibly due to a cosmological constant or otherwise due to unknown "dark energy"; it is an open question at the moment, but it is certainly not been determined as negative-mass matter.  dark energy as a cosmological constant is a constant energy density / vacuum energy throughout space - it is certainly not negative energy.  dark energy as some "as yet unknown" scalar field, is "as yet unknown" and is proof of nothing.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #36 on: 21/12/2010 19:28:59 »
Excuse me, but you play these pedantic word games, then you accuse me of clutching onto straws when I mention the tangibility of negative matter in the universe platying a role in the accelerated expansion? If you won't believe my words on the casimir effect having a small negative region of energy, then you surely cannot sustain a healthy arguement against something so mainstream as a negative energy density taking about 70% out of all matter in the universe surely?

You are arguing that negative matter cannot be touched and is not tangible. If in the sense you want some to touch, then by all means, you will most probably die before such a revelation occurs. However, if you can accept the theoretical side of things, no matter how tenebrous the idea may seem to you, some of us believe in quantum field theory, and the predictions of negative matter existing ''tangibly'' in the vacuum itself. We do afterall, have over a decades worth of proof on the subject contrary to what you may wish to believe in.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #37 on: 21/12/2010 19:31:16 »
Oh and yes, all good scientists within the mainstream believe the matter and energy must be negative, or it would not be making the universe accelerate, by the way.

You accuse me of not sticking to mainstream, but you do a bad job of it youself.
 

Offline Bill S

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« Reply #38 on: 21/12/2010 20:02:17 »
Quote from: QC
There is nothing in the equations which suggests that the mass is not real (not in the mathematical sense)

Is this another case of mathematical "reality" not necessarily being the same as physical reality? 
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #39 on: 21/12/2010 20:21:37 »
Quote from: QC
There is nothing in the equations which suggests that the mass is not real (not in the mathematical sense)

Is this another case of mathematical "reality" not necessarily being the same as physical reality? 

:)

I just like to make sure no one gets mixed up with real and imaginary quantities, and in the case above, I meant real as neither the mathematical quantity, but in normal language. Because we have been discussing exotic matter, and even tachyons, imaginary (or complex) quantities can and usually do crop up.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #40 on: 21/12/2010 20:24:28 »
And it would be well noting, that the mathematical term ''imnaginary'' is just as real as the real number system, and represents quantities which are also just as real as the real system describing everyday objects; this is one reason it should be noted that imaginary matter, or even negative mass should have tangible qualities just like ordinary matter. Nothing in the equations state they aren't.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #41 on: 21/12/2010 20:51:36 »
Well mathematically there exist a theorem like something over a hundred years old that I read about a long time ago, proving that parallel lines always will meet in the end. Mathematically impeccable it is too :)

So the question becomes, don't we need something more than just mathematics to prove it existing here with us?

I think we do, that's why the math we trust will have some experimental verification. doesn't mean we don't trust the other kind too :) But it may at times belong to some other universe, possibly?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #42 on: 21/12/2010 21:12:09 »
Yes, but that is why we have experimentation as well as mathematics to catalogue our events.
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #43 on: 22/12/2010 11:42:20 »
I am out of this discussion - you have still to provide a single article to back up your claims.  Your arguments are becoming increasingly nonsensical. 
A.  There is no consensus on dark energy
B.  Dark Energy is not negative energy - it is negative pressure

I am quite happy with strange and exotic theoretical predictions - but you are describing them as mainstream and concrete.  Secondly, you have started to call everyone who disagrees with you asinine and now I am "playing pedantic word games"; frankly I cannot be bothered with someone who knows little and disguise this fact by using repeated fallacious arguments and insults. 
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #44 on: 23/12/2010 13:36:23 »
Good, I've had enough of you too. You were playing pedantic word games. I said in theory, negative matter would be tangible, you disagreed. I said what proof you had. You said if it doesn't exist then it isn't tangible. How is that not word games?

 

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« Reply #44 on: 23/12/2010 13:36:23 »

 

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