# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?  (Read 44496 times)

#### Foolosophy

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #100 on: 07/01/2011 07:11:14 »
And of course if the photon did indeed turn out to be NON-massless, then the speed of light cannot be a constant and even the innate beauty of the expression E=mc^2 will have to be re-written in another way.

If the photon is found to be non-massless, we'll need to just change our terminology so that c is the "cosmic speed limit," then E=mc2 still holds, whereas light now acts like other massive particles and can never reach that speed.

However, there is no evidence whatsoever that light has mass.

In relativity a critical assumption is that the speed of light is a physical constant.

dc/dt = 0

The energy of a photon for example is expressed by E = hf

where h = Plancks constant and f=frequency

What is the Energy of a photon if it is NON-massless?

I suspect that there are entities in the Universe that have zero mass (or at least so small that we may not be able to measure it anyway)
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 07:16:11 by Foolosophy »

#### JP

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #101 on: 07/01/2011 08:48:05 »
In special relativity a critical assumption is that there exists a cosmic speed limit.  Since light is massless, this is equal to the speed of light.  If you wanted to make up a universe where light had mass, you'd still have a cosmic speed limit and light would be like anything else zipping around within it.

If a photon is non-massless, therefore, you could calculate its energy just like you calculate the energy of any moving particle with mass.  E2=m2c4+p2c2.

#### jartza

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #102 on: 07/01/2011 08:59:10 »

A policeman is measuring, with the police radar thing, the speed of a cow that is walking away from the police. Radar wave gets redshifted. Where does the energy go?

#### Foolosophy

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #103 on: 07/01/2011 09:42:17 »
In special relativity a critical assumption is that there exists a cosmic speed limit.  Since light is massless, this is equal to the speed of light.  If you wanted to make up a universe where light had mass, you'd still have a cosmic speed limit and light would be like anything else zipping around within it.

If a photon is non-massless, therefore, you could calculate its energy just like you calculate the energy of any moving particle with mass.  E2=m2c4+p2c2.
In special relativity a critical assumption is that there exists a cosmic speed limit.  Since light is massless, this is equal to the speed of light.  If you wanted to make up a universe where light had mass, you'd still have a cosmic speed limit and light would be like anything else zipping around within it.

If a photon is non-massless, therefore, you could calculate its energy just like you calculate the energy of any moving particle with mass.  E2=m2c4+p2c2.

...beautifully stated

Have you missed something?
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 09:44:51 by Foolosophy »

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #104 on: 07/01/2011 17:19:07 »
JP I think Foolsophy have a valid point there, it's not only to change one expression. You will need to go over all expressions that build on the assumption of bosons for that then, not that I know all there is :) And also all further expressions that build on those assumptions ad infinitum.

If it was as simple, and if it mattered that little to our universe then I would expected Einstein to already have considered it when creating his theory of relativity. I doubt he missed the inherent 'mysticism' in having bosons and 'point particles' interacting without 'existing' in SpaceTime. So if he never even considered giving light an invariant mass I'm sure he had good reasons.

Yep :)
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 17:22:07 by yor_on »

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #105 on: 07/01/2011 17:31:36 »
Okay Jartza, you're thinking of the Doppler shift right?
And now both you and me are flabbergasted, I don't know where that 'energy' goes?
According to Einstein that energy is a 'local expression' measurable at that place where you are as being red or blue shifted.

If you look at it as waves we have definitions and explanations to why it will behave like it does, getting 'compressed' or 'stretched out' in time. But although the explanation is understandable it puts an awful lot of importance on 'time' that then becomes something 'concentrating' the energy or 'thinning it out'. And how that fact can make a 'energy amount' do more or less 'work'?

Don't I wish I knew that one :)

And when we look at it as particles it becomes even weirder.
==

If you accept that 'energy' always will be a local expression it will make sense though. We have to remember that we're latecomers to this universe, before we came into existence a lot of other things already had happened, in that mysterious 'time'. That means that although we exist, we might not be the reason why a universe exist, even though I think we're an expression of the universes 'need' to create into more and more complexity. Complexity is not entropy though, they are different expressions where complexity is certain types of ordered entropy that creates things like us.
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 17:45:36 by yor_on »

#### simplified

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #106 on: 07/01/2011 17:52:21 »

A policeman is measuring, with the police radar thing, the speed of a cow that is walking away from the police. Radar wave gets redshifted. Where does the energy go?

The policeman receives that energy, only relatively of the cow.

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #107 on: 07/01/2011 18:18:35 »
Yeah, that is right. It's all local expressions. If that policeman had been on a bike going the opposite direction the energy would have been 'weaker', delivering less energy per 'time unit'. and if he was going towards the energy would have 'stronger'. The important part to me is that it actually will do more, or less, work depending on his direction. It makes for a very 'geometric' universe, doesn't it?
==

But don't mix that with our box. That's about frames of reference.
What you could say in the box scenario is that if the guy inside start to run, very very fast, towards the 'bouncing' wave he will say that it have gained 'energy', with all right too. If he runs away from it he will state that it's 'weaker'.

But being 'at rest' with that box he will see light the same way as on Earth.
==

And that's weird :)
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 18:23:23 by yor_on »

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #108 on: 07/01/2011 18:41:13 »
Look at it this way. If we imagine that I get on my Spacecraft, building up a tremendous velocity relative my place of origin (Earth) 'my universe' will 'contract' as by time dilation and Lorentz contraction.

If you accept that both exist 'for real' that should mean that 'locally', for me, that same universe that contained all that energy a universe now can be expected to have will, for me, suddenly 'exist' in a lesser 'area'.

That doesn't make sense, does it :)
But it does, it's a logical extension of what we already see.
==

And that's one of the reasons why I can accept the idea that a spring getting compressed will keep that 'energy', even though I 'normally' would expect that energy to dissipate, same as with kicking a ball, where we know that after it stopped moving it will weight the same. The difference here is that I leave the spring compressed. 'locking' it into a state where some of the energy will dissipate, just like with the football, because that's the excess energy I brought into play compressing the spring, expressing itself as heat for example. But as I leave it compressed, locking it, it will contain more energy than before relative me, and so some more 'mass'.
==

The question you might ask is whether this springs 'new energy state' aka mass will be true for all 'frames of reference' that may measure it. I think it has to be? And that's interesting :)
« Last Edit: 08/01/2011 01:19:58 by yor_on »

#### simplified

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #109 on: 07/01/2011 19:55:13 »
An escaping mirror and a motionless mirror receive various energies from photons.An escaping mirror takes more energy.
For clearness we should create the universal law of energy distribution .

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #110 on: 07/01/2011 20:38:17 »
Maybe?

I don't know, it's relations to me. Like a constantly changing balance, differently defined from all frames but always keeping a equilibrium of some weird sort. If you look at SpaceTime as a whole expression, in where you can't differ out 'time' from the 'room' it exist in then they all are different 'room time geometries' to me.
==

And the only one being a 'first hand expression', will be the one you exist in, for you.
==

To see what such an idea make of 'energy' you can ask yourself what you would expect to happen when you turn on a light-bulb in that Lorentz contracted (and in a way time dilated, even though not as your 'arrow of time' aka wristwatch, shows it.) SpaceTime.

Do you expect it to explode with energy as 'SpaceTime', according to your definition on that ship, suddenly have 'contracted'? Or do you expect it to act just the same as on Earth?
==

So what is 'energy'?
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 22:53:07 by yor_on »

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #111 on: 07/01/2011 23:08:47 »
In fact you only have two choices if you accept the theory of relativity, as I see it now. Either you define Lorentz contraction like a 'twisted room geometry' fooling our measurements, and senses. That is, not being 'real' and just an 'illusion'. But then it seems to me that you will have defined 'time dilations' the same way as those two are one of a kind, to me that is.

Or you accept.
==

And if you define it as an illusion, what about 'Doppler made energy'?
Also an illusion?

Think of it this way to see what I mean.
All uniform motion are inseparable in a black box.
Let the box move uniformly having a velocity.

Let a siren, equivalent to a light beam, be situated 'at rest' relative our box origin (some original position for our two objects (and in SpaceTime), from where we define a start), make a sound.
Will we find that sound to be compressed when coming at it?

As any uniform motion is inseparable from being at rest, inside that 'black box' I then can assume either one siren, or a multitude of sirens, all sounding for a incredibly short moment and all at different pitch.

Probably there are better examples :) than this but my idea is then that you can't really separate this from being still, can you? And if you can't you might just as well assume that there was this 'infinity' of different sounds, all of them representing a different 'energy level' (and as we 'know', all Doppler).
==

I know, this one we can argue about :)

But even if we consider it not 'constantly changing' instead first 'blue shifted' and then after passing a single 'red shift' we still have the same phenomena, namely a Doppler shift representing different 'energies' relative the box.
==

If you accept the idea, just for the moment, how many of my so called 'room time geometries' do you think we have? I would say two, one is yours inside that moving box, the other was our siren, and possibly a 'background', as we can assume both to exist in a 'SpaceTime'. But looked from my perspective that 'background' only exist relative the objects existing in it, and so is a inseparable part of every objects existence. So only two then :)

But we had, if you accept the idea, a multitude of 'energies' from that box's perspective, and all of them unique.
So where do they belong?
With the siren?
With the box?

Or as a 'relation' to our 'system'?
==

To really see the weirdness.
The same phenomena, but you was still.
« Last Edit: 08/01/2011 01:32:37 by yor_on »

#### JP

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #112 on: 08/01/2011 01:30:33 »
JP I think Foolsophy have a valid point there, it's not only to change one expression. You will need to go over all expressions that build on the assumption of bosons for that then, not that I know all there is :) And also all further expressions that build on those assumptions ad infinitum.
Special relativity appears to be true based on a lot of tests, and the cosmic speed limit appears to be the speed of light, which also indicates that photons are massless.  If they had mass, all the experiments we've done would still be true and the cosmic speed limit wouldn't change, but the speed of light would.  I never said only one equation changes.  All our theories about photons would have to be modified to account for this mass.

Quote
If it was as simple, and if it mattered that little to our universe then I would expected Einstein to already have considered it when creating his theory of relativity.
Of course he had good reasons!  Light appears to be massless and there is no evidence to the contrary. Of course, we now know that Einstein's theory of relativity doesn't require that light is massless, and that it would still hold if light had a tiny bit of mass.

Quote
I doubt he missed the inherent 'mysticism' in having bosons and 'point particles' interacting without 'existing' in SpaceTime. So if he never even considered giving light an invariant mass I'm sure he had good reasons.
I'm not sure this is true.  Bosons do exist in space-time when they interact.  Quantum electrodynamics describes how they do so.  Photons and gluons are zero mass Bosons, but W and Z bosons have mass and are bosons.  The Higgs particle is predicted to be a massive Boson as well.  Also, all particles have invariant mass.  Photons are just special because their invariant mass is zero.

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #113 on: 08/01/2011 01:42:54 »
Yeah, you're perfectly right JP, bosons exist, Although I'm having real big trouble understanding why and how :) Photons we have experimental evidence for, gluons? I don't know any experimental proofs myself, isn't they theoretical 'particles' still?

Are you stating that Einstein didn't 'know' that his theory would hold if he allowed for a slight invariant mass? Maybe, I'm not sure there, he seems to have looked after the simplest explanations that made sense to him, and us too possibly :) I would have expected him to want them to have a certain invariant mass, if he thought he could get away with it as they still are mysterious things, no matter that we know them to interact.

That's a really nice question btw, why didn't he allow for a slight invariant mass if it now would make no difference? To me that would make a world of difference, as Jaztra's ideas for example, mass/energy?

#### JP

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #114 on: 08/01/2011 02:31:11 »
Photons we have experimental evidence for, gluons? I don't know any experimental proofs myself, isn't they theoretical 'particles' still?
We can't see them directly, but we can and have measured their decay products in high energy experiments.  The observations match the theoretical objects we call gluons and we don't have another explanation for them.

Quote
Are you stating that Einstein didn't 'know' that his theory would hold if he allowed for a slight invariant mass? Maybe, I'm not sure there, he seems to have looked after the simplest explanations that made sense to him, and us too possibly :) I would have expected him to want them to have a certain invariant mass, if he thought he could get away with it as they still are mysterious things, no matter that we know them to interact.

That's a really nice question btw, why didn't he allow for a slight invariant mass if it now would make no difference? To me that would make a world of difference, as Jaztra's ideas for example, mass/energy?
I'm sure he knew, but why would you want to postulate that light has an invariant mass when there's no evidence that it does?  We'd also have to tweak Maxwell's equations and quantum electrodynamics to account for this and they'd no longer be quite so elegant (though QED wasn't around yet when Einstein proposed special relativity).  The elegance of Maxwell's equations alone is enough of a reason why it's natural to leave light massless.

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #115 on: 08/01/2011 02:56:00 »
Yeah, I started to look for it on the net. I think this one is okay? The Concept Of Mass by LD. Okun.

There is some references is in it to how Einstein came to his conclusions (p.14), but I wish he was here :) I would really like to ask him about that one.
==

In it he mention how Einstein showed how a massless particle could transfer a 'invariant mass' change in form of energy, (in his 1906 paper) without itself needing to be of invariant or proper or rest mass. I'm starting to feel that the best expression might be 'rest mass' myself :) awh, invariant is cool too :)

And I stated that a photon has no inertia. Would you agree to that? The reason I do is because there is no acceleration involved, if you don't have an acceleration I don't see how you can have an inertia? When a photon 'bends' it's only following a least energy expenditure, as it have to do, only existing in a interaction, well, as I see it. But I've seen others referring to the photons 'inertia' :)
==

As for "why would you want to postulate that light has an invariant mass when there's no evidence that it does?" I would, because then there would be no 'shadow world' existing, as all would be referable too as having that same property, 'mass'. Although that seems to change the way photons would 'interact', as they then possibly could gain 'mass' by energy, as that spring could?

I don't really know there, that one becomes confusing considering that we then would have 'mass full' photons 'interacting' with each other? I prefer it as it is actually :) I like mysteries. Life would fast get boring otherwise.
==

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the concept of photons having even the slightest invariant mass mean that they would be able to interact kinetically? Without getting annihilated? And what would it make 'virtual particles'? Maybe it is allowable according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle but a invariant mass should mean an awful lot of more mass than we account for, at least if we assume them as freely propagating in space?  Aha, stop wondering why there is so much mass missing :) Nahh.
==
I'm sure that my last one soon will become a full fledged theory :) Not by me though.
« Last Edit: 08/01/2011 04:00:23 by yor_on »

#### JP

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #116 on: 08/01/2011 02:59:57 »
Yeah, that's the most commonly used mass.  It's called a lot of things: the invariant mass, the rest mass.  That paper seems to call it the Newtonian mass (which is a new one to me).  Anyway, this mass is a constant value for a particle, no matter how it's moving.

The other kind of mass is the relativistic mass, which varies with speed.

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #117 on: 08/01/2011 03:35:23 »
As for the way Okun find 'mass' to cover it all though :) I don't know, not as long as we can't make that lasting piece of matter from light. I'll stay with rest-mass for a while. And invariant, although a photon seems to me to be rather 'invariant' too, if I got it right?

#### jartza

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #118 on: 08/01/2011 09:27:59 »
An escaping mirror and a motionless mirror receive various energies from photons.An escaping mirror takes more energy.

Oh yes.

Simplified understands, others don't understand.

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #119 on: 08/01/2011 17:23:27 »
Jartza, you need to prove that uniform motion will differ from inside that black box first, won't you?

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #120 on: 08/01/2011 18:15:14 »
Energy is limited by one thing it seems to me.
The speed of light (in a vacuum).

Somehow it's related.

You can also see it as an expression of 'objects' interacting.
But regulated by light. And 'motion', as easily can be proved if you let one bystander be 'still' relative an explosion, another going from it, a third going towards it.

All three will give different 'energies'. Then you have to differ between the 'conceptual view' in which we look upon those three relations, analyzing their relation finding a common connection, and the one in where you're 'there' observing a 'single outcome'.
==

But 'motion' falls under lights speed in a vacuum, so in the end we come back to one constant, I think?
It all depends on how you look at SpaceTime, as a God, or as a observer.
==

To me the observer is the important thing, if we would see a different 'energy' but it being an 'illusion' created by our 'moving observers' then it wouldn't matter and the view point of 'God' would be appropriate. But if we find the 'energy'  to differ, then the three 'observers' all are right, and 'God's' point of view becomes slightly skewed.

To see it better you can imagine the two 'moving observers' as having a uniform motion, inseparable from being 'at rest'. It is a fact that we have no 'rest-frame' in the universe, and so all uniformly moving objects are contenders for that universal 'frame of rest' if you like. If you find a way to put this notion into doubt we will have a different universe. That also mean that when I define two observers as 'moving', then that is only a 'relative truth' relative the third, that I then arbitrarily decided to define as 'being still'. Although he is being still relative the origin of the explosion there is nothing guaranteeing that this is the ultimate place of 'rest' in our universe.

In 'reality' there are no such thing, or all uniformly moving 'objects' will be 'still', no matter what velocity you define to them.
« Last Edit: 08/01/2011 19:15:39 by yor_on »

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #121 on: 08/01/2011 18:56:10 »
Read it closely one more time and then try to see a universe from the viewpoint of 'energy expended'. Then tell me what you find in the case of our three observers.

What is 'energy'?

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #122 on: 08/01/2011 19:27:51 »
If you accept that the energy is real for all three then you've killed the idea of 'objectivity', or that 'God like' point of view. That you can find a common relation and three energies guarantee only that there seems to be a 'sliding relation' between different observers, joining their observations. But, and that's the important thing, those energies was all real, by themselves. And as a 'system' you might want to define it to have a uniform motion, well, you're God after all :) making those energies tell you yet another thing about their 'strength' relative the 'universe'.

The 'sliding relation' you see is meditated by radiation. And that's governed by lights invariant speed in and from all frames of reference, namely the speed of light in a vacuum.

#### yor_on

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #123 on: 08/01/2011 19:39:23 »
So there is no way to define a universal measure of 'energy', but they will still, all three, do different amounts of 'work'. Then 'energy' also is a very 'local definition' and no truth you can use to describe a common SpaceTime. Remember that all uniformly moving frames, according to me, can be seen as equivalent, no matter what velocity you measure from your 'position'.
==

If you accept that definition I'm sure you will find my definition of different 'room time geometries' making more sense. In your unique 'room time geometry' 'times arrow' give you the same expiration date no matter where you are, always 'ticking' with the same duration. The only 'time dilation' you will see will be the one defined by SpaceTime accelerating in 'time' as you 'move' near light speed. The Lorentz contraction can also be seen the same way, if you like, as an expression of 'SpaceTime' as your yardstick will give you the same measurements as before, measuring.

But, does that makes sense? I like it better if I define it as it all being one whole 'expression' where we use 'energy' to change it. And that's why I like 'energy expended'.
==

Your 'room time geometry' will then be the whole of 'SpaceTime', and all yours. My 'room time geometry' will be another, having a different 'SpaceTime'. Then there is the question why they 'join' into one 'big SpaceTime'? I think it's by the same 'sliding relations' I mentioned before, radiation. And that's also why we have so many 'points of view', all depending on where we imagine us standing, observing. But my 'room time geometries' are defined from each 'object' existing, as they all should describe something unique.

Don't know how much sense it make seen 'globally', but 'locally' I'm happy with it :)
« Last Edit: 08/01/2011 20:51:41 by yor_on »

#### jartza

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #124 on: 09/01/2011 07:13:45 »
Here Bob is standing in a moving box. Look at Bob's feet, so you can see what direction Bob is facing.

Bob's back receives blue rays, Bob's belly receives red rays. Every time that a blue ray hits Bob's back, Bob's kinetic energy increases. Every time that a red ray hits Bob's belly, Bob's kinetic energy decreases.

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##### Where does the remainder of the energy from a mass falling into a blackhole go?
« Reply #124 on: 09/01/2011 07:13:45 »