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Author Topic: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?  (Read 21654 times)

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Offline Foolosophy

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #25 on: 06/01/2011 04:55:20 »
Shrunk
It's cool, post it in new theories if you like. Then we can be at like wolfs :)
Not really, but it would be interesting to see how you think :)

This forum forbids speculation.

Only broing conservative scientific dogma is to be propagated in here.

Humour is banned




 

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Offline QuantumClue

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #26 on: 06/01/2011 05:15:17 »
Shrunk
Humour is tolerated here, subjecting idea's to the wrong subforum however, is not.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #27 on: 06/01/2011 05:25:41 »
I also found Van Flandern interesting Foolosophy. but I found this pdf later, that I linked to above, and reading it I think he might be wrong. But I know what you mean, and yes, in some aspects I too see gravity as instantaneous. Inertia will be happening as fast here as in deep space not caring about where you are. And that's also why I think of it as a 'topology' that is circumstanced by lights speed in a vacuum. The weird thing is how this topology is able to 'remember' itself.

That one is instantaneous if so, and no, people smile when we joke :)
You've made me smile at least :)

We're not that serious. If we was I would be banned here.
==

Inertia= the reaction you feel to a change in direction or acceleration.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2011 05:28:13 by yor_on »
 

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #28 on: 06/01/2011 06:17:35 »
Shrunk
Humour is tolerated here, subjecting idea's to the wrong subforum however, is not.

And what is the punishment for this ULTIMATE moral crime?
 

Offline Foolosophy

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #29 on: 06/01/2011 06:26:23 »
I also found Van Flandern interesting Foolosophy. but I found this pdf later, that I linked to above, and reading it I think he might be wrong. But I know what you mean, and yes, in some aspects I too see gravity as instantaneous. Inertia will be happening as fast here as in deep space not caring about where you are. And that's also why I think of it as a 'topology' that is circumstanced by lights speed in a vacuum. The weird thing is how this topology is able to 'remember' itself.

That one is instantaneous if so, and no, people smile when we joke :)
You've made me smile at least :)



It does look as though the Newtonian assumption of gravity acting instantaneously over any distance may indeed be the case.

I tend to think that the reason for this is that space is not perfectly FLAT everywhere in the universe. That is, even if there was only one speck of dust in existence in the entire universe, the distortion in the space-time continuum that it will create will head off to infinity. Even in this extreme case space will have some value of curvature at any distance away from this speck of dust - the delusional axioms of mathematics DEMAND this to be so.

The issue then becomes one of semantical mathematical lunacy

this is right up my alley
« Last Edit: 06/01/2011 06:28:52 by Foolosophy »
 

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #30 on: 06/01/2011 06:41:48 »
Shrunk
Humour is tolerated here, subjecting idea's to the wrong subforum however, is not.

And what is the punishment for this ULTIMATE moral crime?

That is not within my purview.
 

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Offline Foolosophy

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #31 on: 06/01/2011 06:46:00 »
Shrunk
Humour is tolerated here, subjecting idea's to the wrong subforum however, is not.

And what is the punishment for this ULTIMATE moral crime?

That is not within my purview.

...then are you able to direct me towards a Forum master or Tyrannical Thought lord so that I can obtain the details concerning this torturous punishment that is dished out for THE ULTIMATE MORAL CRIME?
 

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Offline QuantumClue

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #32 on: 06/01/2011 06:52:40 »
Shrunk
The mods, would be a thoughtful place to start.
 

Offline yor_on

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #33 on: 06/01/2011 07:06:37 »
"I tend to think that the reason for this is that space is not perfectly FLAT everywhere in the universe. That is, even if there was only one speck of dust in existence in the entire universe, the distortion in the space-time continuum that it will create will head off to infinity. Even in this extreme case space will have some value of curvature at any distance away from this speck of dust "

Okay, I follow your idea abut how even a speck of dust will distort SpaceTime. I would expect that to be true too, to some infinitesimal degree. But from there to saying that it is the reason? For gravity being instantaneous? Do you mean that all objects of invariant mass carry its own 'distortions' with them and that inertia would act in those?

Or how do you see it, as if gravity would be a constant field created by invariant mass maybe, a spiders web? That's one analogy I like to use :)

There have been observations describing gravitational waves propagating when observing binary stars if I remember right so I think Einsteins idea of it taking 'time' to build is correct. the thing left is to explain why it creates a net, instantly reacting to inertia. That's what the Higg's particle (God particle:) try to do, but I I'm not sure if there is needed to be any particles?

And you seem to share that idea, even though I'm not sure how you see it?
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #34 on: 06/01/2011 13:01:07 »
I begin to believe in instantaneous gravity, there are two other phenomena that are similar entanglement of particles and the reaction to rotation as postulated by Mach.
I cannot recall the source of the quote but I have heard that you have to believe in three impossible things before breakfast (was it Dodgson ?)
« Last Edit: 06/01/2011 17:47:32 by syhprum »
 

Offline Foolosophy

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #35 on: 06/01/2011 13:28:56 »
"I tend to think that the reason for this is that space is not perfectly FLAT everywhere in the universe. That is, even if there was only one speck of dust in existence in the entire universe, the distortion in the space-time continuum that it will create will head off to infinity. Even in this extreme case space will have some value of curvature at any distance away from this speck of dust "

Okay, I follow your idea abut how even a speck of dust will distort SpaceTime. I would expect that to be true too, to some infinitesimal degree. But from there to saying that it is the reason? For gravity being instantaneous? Do you mean that all objects of invariant mass carry its own 'distortions' with them and that inertia would act in those?

Or how do you see it, as if gravity would be a constant field created by invariant mass maybe, a spiders web? That's one analogy I like to use :)

There have been observations describing gravitational waves propagating when observing binary stars if I remember right so I think Einsteins idea of it taking 'time' to build is correct. the thing left is to explain why it creates a net, instantly reacting to inertia. That's what the Higg's particle (God particle:) try to do, but I I'm not sure if there is needed to be any particles?

And you seem to share that idea, even though I'm not sure how you see it?

I will elaborate further on the points I made in early September 2012

This gives you plenty of time to show how some Mathematical assumptions are referred to as axioms - the elite immutable constructs that may well trun out to be mere illusions
 

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #36 on: 06/01/2011 18:02:12 »
Shrunk
Pardon me. I must have stepped into the wrong room. I didn't realize this was the carping and moaning thread.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #37 on: 07/01/2011 02:48:32 »
"As viewed from the Earth’s frame, light from the Sun has aberration. Light requires about 8.3 minutes to arrive from the Sun, during which time the Sun seems to move through an angle of 20 arc seconds. The arriving sunlight shows us where the Sun was 8.3 minutes ago. The true, instantaneous position of the Sun is about 20 arc seconds east of its visible position, and we will see the Sun in its true present position about 8.3 minutes into the future."

Surely this is evidence for gravity travelling faster than light only if gravity is regarded as a force, which GR says it is not.  If gravity is a distortion of spacetime, then the distortion which holds the Earth in orbit around the sun is already in place, and has been since the sun formed.  Any change, e.g. if the sun suddenly vanished, would, presumably, take 8.3 mins to reach Earth, but there is no comparison between light which is constantly travelling, and gravity which, according to GR, remains "in place".
OK, that's a non-scientist's interpretation, and could well be wrong, but it seem to me to make sense.  :P
   
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #38 on: 07/01/2011 03:05:25 »
If gravitational propagation were instantaneous, then it would allow you to send FTL signals by moving a large mass back and forth and measuring the change in apparent gravitational strength from some distant sensor...

Doesn't make sense to say it's instantaneous.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #39 on: 07/01/2011 03:55:23 »
If gravity is a distortion of spacetime, then the distortion which holds the Earth in orbit around the sun is already in place, and has been since the sun formed.

Yes,

I think I mentioned that too. 
However, my question was that while you have a stable earth-sun frame of reference.  The sun is actually orbiting around the Milky Way (which is also moving through space). 

However, should one expect this "speed" to be slightly variable.
So, on the forward side of the movement, the speed of gravity would be measurably slower than the trailing side of the sun's orbit?

If the speed of gravity was equal to the speed of light, perhaps the difference could be measured.
If the speed was 1010c, then it may not be significant.

I suppose I still have troubles imagining if this really would be measuring the speed of propagation of gravity, or perhaps something else like bow shock.

A gravitational drag on 2 parallel bodies (or two next to each other in an orbit) seems like a better way to calculate the speed of gravity as mentioned above with the diagram.
 

Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #40 on: 07/01/2011 04:01:37 »
If the force of gravity propagates faster than light how could we explain General Relativity that says that acceleration and gravity act the same way??? The maximum of the speed of light is the limiting factor of speed and acceleration which creates Relativity...
 

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Offline Foolosophy

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #41 on: 07/01/2011 05:27:30 »
Shrunk
Pardon me. I must have stepped into the wrong room. I didn't realize this was the carping and moaning thread.

No sensual moments in here - you must be mistaken
 

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #42 on: 07/01/2011 05:32:25 »
Shrunk
You misunderstand. I said carping.
 

Offline Foolosophy

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #43 on: 07/01/2011 05:38:06 »
If gravitational propagation were instantaneous, then it would allow you to send FTL signals by moving a large mass back and forth and measuring the change in apparent gravitational strength from some distant sensor...

Doesn't make sense to say it's instantaneous.

.....and yet instantaneous action at a distance (entanglement) is an intergral part of Quantum Phsyics. The EPR paradox was propoased by EInstein, Podolski and Rosen decades ago in order to challenge the entanglement principle and yet it still failed to expose it as false.

The experiments of Faldern show that the speed at which gravity propagates is AT LEAST 20,000,000,000 times greater than the speed of light. This experimental conculsion does not however dismiss the possibility of gravity propagating at an infinite speed - ie instantaneously  
 

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #44 on: 07/01/2011 05:39:11 »
Shrunk
You misunderstand. I said carping.

You misunderstand - I was referring to the moaning
 

Offline syhprum

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #45 on: 07/01/2011 07:09:13 »
I think the argument boils down as to which is right, Einstein with his rubber sheets or QED with its Gravitons.
The idea of instant communication as put foward by Supercryptid via gravity waves would certainly work but the problem would be generating sufficient power to get a decent S/N ratio at the receiver
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 07:12:28 by syhprum »
 

Offline Foolosophy

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #46 on: 07/01/2011 08:26:44 »
I think the argument boils down as to which is right, Einstein with his rubber sheets or QED with its Gravitons.
The idea of instant communication as put foward by Supercryptid via gravity waves would certainly work but the problem would be generating sufficient power to get a decent S/N ratio at the receiver

The so called argument that you describe between the Qauntum world and the large scale world and gravity hasnt been resolved yet.

The Theory of Everything as its called is supposed to merge the large scale with the micro world (ie gravity with Quantum mechanics)

So its not really a choice between QED and General Relativity.

Its likely that both will be superceded with a theory that can tackle the whole scale spectrum.

At the moment String Theory is main candidate but as ST stands at the moment it is really just a mathematical philosophy (there is not single scrap of experimental eveidence to support ST sadly - so its in the RELIGION basket still - a lot of faith needed)
 

Offline williampcochran

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #47 on: 07/01/2011 17:11:32 »
the speed of light is only constant in a vacuum. even gravity affects the relative "speed" of light. as photons cannot achieve escape velocity in deep gravitational wells. gravitons on the other hand are not in any way hindered.
if photons can be captured and gravitons cannot, can we assume that gravity can and does travel faster than light?
« Last Edit: 07/01/2011 17:13:07 by williampcochran »
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #48 on: 08/01/2011 02:32:10 »
Quote
if photons can be captured and gravitons cannot, can we assume that gravity can and does travel faster than light?

Have I got this right: the graviton is a hypothetical particle, which might mediate the force of gravity, which is not really a force?

This force, that is not a force, might propagate at the speed of light, or 20,000,000,000 times faster, or perhaps instantaneously.

Then again, as CliffordK mentioned, it could be just a distortion of spacetime.

Surely it couldn't be that Mark McCutcheon is right and gravity is just an illusion brought about by the fact that everything in the Universe is expanding!
 

Offline JP

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #49 on: 08/01/2011 02:33:53 »
Surely it couldn't be that Mark McCutcheon is right and gravity is just an illusion brought about by the fact that everything in the Universe is expanding!

He isn't. 

And stop calling me Shirley!
 

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Re: Do gravitational waves propagate faster than light waves?
« Reply #49 on: 08/01/2011 02:33:53 »

 

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