# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What is the maximum speed of information?  (Read 20615 times)

#### Airthumbs

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« on: 11/01/2011 23:42:51 »
If information can travel faster then the speed of light, does it have a limit as that of light?

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #1 on: 11/01/2011 23:46:16 »
Information comes in bits, materialistic bits. Information about the system is contained within the energy or matter a system is made of. Information therefore cannot travel faster than light. Though Doctor Fred Alan Wolf if I recall, believed that ethereal information can travel faster than light.

#### Airthumbs

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #2 on: 12/01/2011 00:00:52 »
I was referring to an EPR paradox, in this case the entanglement of two separated particles and observing their quantum states.  Although I see that this is instantaneous I am wondering if that over huge distances this effect has a speed limit.
Also the information I am referring too is the information passed between to two particles upon observation of one of them.

#### JP

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #3 on: 12/01/2011 04:14:10 »
The usual definition of information is in terms of bits, as quantumclue said.  In quantum mechanics, you can send information by preparing a quantum particle in different states, so that each state represents information.  Entanglement basically involves forcing two particles to be related in such a way that changing one of them (by measuring it) changes the one on the other end, so you can send something between the two particles.

The problem comes when you try to actually send usable information that way.  It turns out the person on the receiving end has to get some additional information from you before they can interpret that the quantum particle did, and this additional information is limited by the speed of light.

So in summary, there is apparently something happening faster-than-light for quantum systems, but it's not usable information as far as we know.

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By the way, Quantumclue also mentions Fred Allan Wolf.  I would recommend taking anything from Dr. Wolf with a large dose of skepticism.  He's a big proponent of quantum pseudoscience and publishes a lot of books that are very poorly regarded by mainstream science.

#### Geezer

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #4 on: 12/01/2011 06:06:03 »
Annoying, isn't it. If it worked, instantaneous communication would have some interesting applications.

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #5 on: 12/01/2011 09:34:42 »

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By the way, Quantumclue also mentions Fred Allan Wolf.  I would recommend taking anything from Dr. Wolf with a large dose of skepticism.  He's a big proponent of quantum pseudoscience and publishes a lot of books that are very poorly regarded by mainstream science.

I don't know his work well enough of form that kind of opinion :)

#### Airthumbs

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #6 on: 12/01/2011 13:37:38 »
If instantaneous communications is possible using quantum mechanics then this must be a good way of chatting to aliens over huge cosmic distances.  Something is passing between the two entangled particles.  I am not quantum scientist, so I ask is it possible to have two entangled particles existing, lets say at opposite ends of the visible universe?
And also has anyone been able to identify exactly what is passing between the two particles in an entangled state?
And is it possible that we could have such systems in our brains?

#### syhprum

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #7 on: 12/01/2011 14:25:57 »
There is some evidence that the influence of gravity travels faster than c (see the correspondence on this forum) therefor communication via gravity waves should be able to transmit information at superluminal speed.
The problem is the technology the generation of gravity waves requires the movement of very large masses and the most sensitive receivers so far built have failed to detect any naturally occurring ones.

#### QuantumClue

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #8 on: 12/01/2011 15:01:14 »
If anything there is the possibility that information tunnels. That means it removes the superluminal suspects.

#### Foolosophy

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #9 on: 12/01/2011 15:47:48 »
Depending on how you define information, NOT all information is discrete

#### imatfaal

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #10 on: 12/01/2011 16:23:13 »
To be dull and orthodox; at present gravitational waves are thought to travel at light speed per GR, and quantum entanglement cannot lead to a transfer of information.

Admittedly there is a lot of speculation over the speed of gravitational waves - but as none have been detected, you pays your money your takes your choice over which theory you wish to follow and it needs a great argument to bypass GR.  Its by no means settled - but if you are gonna bet on a theory I would go with GR every time.

Quantum entanglement has the prospect of being able to transfer information - but at present it does not.  If you set two electrons to an entangled state and take them apart then the entanglement remains - which might be useful; but as soon as you measure one of them, or align one of them the entanglement is broken.  you can't wiggle one of the electron on earth and watch its entangled pair wiggle on alpha centuri.

#### Geezer

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #11 on: 12/01/2011 18:25:17 »
I suppose it's possible to use it as a means to synchronize events at two locations.

http://www.physorg.com/news132830327.html

#### imatfaal

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #12 on: 12/01/2011 18:47:05 »
Thanks Geezer - just read the summary  you gave and an article in Nature by the same guy Daniel Salart.  I can't post a link to the Nature article as it is behind pay-wall - but I am sure a little google scholaring would dig it up.

Anyone know of a nice intro to Franson Interferometry?

#### yor_on

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #13 on: 13/01/2011 04:18:45 »
Yep, but that's where I wonder.
What about plants using entanglements to transfer 'energy'`? Converting it into chemical biological nourishment?

If they do so, instantly, as the term is. Then I would consider this a very 'meaningful' information. I can't see anything more meaningful in a universe in fact. And there was also a proposition on how to use 'energy' transfered to one 'entangled' particle to give his 'twin' the same amount-

That one phreaks me out totally in fact :)
If it would work you would get two 'energy quanta' out of one. Then we would have to look at a lot of ideas we take for granted, like energy conservation, and reformulate it, it seems to me?

#### yor_on

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #14 on: 13/01/2011 04:20:53 »
Or as I do, reformulate the concept of 'energy'.
I think that might work too?

#### JP

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #15 on: 13/01/2011 06:57:27 »
Yor_on, I'm unaware of cases where you can send energy through entanglement.  From what I know of entanglement, it sounds impossible.  If you have a source for plants entangling energy, that would be interesting to read, though.

If you receive an entangled particle, it's in multiple quantum states at once (as a quantum superposition).  If you measure the particle, you see only one state, though.  When you generated it, you set probabilities of seeing each one of those states.  Entanglement just means that your measurement will influence the results your friend will get upon measurement, who has the entangled partner of your particle.

If you somehow entangle energy states, and measure a high energy state, you haven't created or sent energy--it was already in both particles.

#### Foolosophy

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #16 on: 13/01/2011 07:15:16 »
If anything there is the possibility that information tunnels. That means it removes the superluminal suspects.

tunneling does not imply an increase in speed or speeds in excess of the speed of light

You not only must show how the tunneling mechanism works but whether it can be detected

Otherwise we are taking about Scientific Religious dogma

#### Geezer

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #17 on: 13/01/2011 07:50:30 »
Who said anything about tunneling? The experiment clearly demonstrates the phenomenon. It is not required to demonstrate how the phenomenon works.

#### yor_on

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #18 on: 13/01/2011 09:03:02 »
JP look at this Photosynthesis.  And there was another better one one that I linked here before? Ah, here :) Chloroplasts use of entanglement's to transport solar energy and here's the PDF..Quantum entanglement in photosynthetic light harvesting complexes.
==

Although i might jump to conclusions here I get the impression that it works?

"Researchers are increasingly trying to peek inside nature’s bag of tricks and develop a new generation of biologically-inspired photovoltaics. Two recent discoveries represent significant progress toward this goal. The first of these papers  was from a group of UC Berkeley researchers, led by chemistry professors Graham Fleming and Birgitta Whaley. They demonstrated that chloroplasts make use of a quantum physical effect known as entanglement to transport solar energy from light harvesting pigments to chemical reaction centers with extraordinary efficiency. Entanglement causes pairs of electrons that are spatially separated to behave like a single particle, meaning any change to one electron instantaneously affects the other. In plants, this effect allows solar energy to be stored in a high-energy electron configuration for a long enough period of time to be transferred to the chemical reaction centers before any of the energy has a chance to leak away."
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And this is also what I'm talking about when I say I saw a proposition testing just this, to send 'energy' over a entanglement boosting one photon. I don't have the link to that one though, but I'm sure I put it up, somewhere? :)
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"The second recent innovation, made by a group led by Professor Michael Strano at MIT, is an artificial light-harvesting structure  that has the ability to reassemble after its molecules have been broken apart by light. This mimics the mechanism used by plants to combat gradual reductions in conversion efficiency over time. In plants, proteins in the light harvesting regions typically break apart and reassemble every 45 minutes, a process that maintains the health of the system year after year. Similarly, damaged structures in the MIT group’s concoction reassemble whenever a surfactant is added to and subsequently removed from the solution. Thought to be the most complex man-made self-assembling system ever developed, their structure consist of seven different compounds, including carbon nanotubes, proteins, and phospholipids. Although their device isn’t quite ready yet to compete with silicon-based solar cells, their work represents the first step towards developing long-lasting, low-cost solar cell materials using nature’s own self-repairing approach."
==

But yes, you're correct in that it has to be injected somehow without measuring, I wish i had that link I'm talking about. In it I think they suggested some way, although thinking of it? It would have to be very weird to work. Da*n :)

I kind'a liked it..
The idea :)
« Last Edit: 13/01/2011 09:21:30 by yor_on »

#### lightarrow

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #19 on: 13/01/2011 09:16:31 »
If instantaneous communications is possible using quantum mechanics then this must be a good way of chatting to aliens over huge cosmic distances.
No, there is no relation between the two things. In QM what is "istantaneous" or however, very fast, cannot be properly called "communication".
Anyway, transmission of information faster than c is not possible.

#### yor_on

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #20 on: 13/01/2011 09:28:12 »
Okay doubters worldwide :)

I found it.
==

And I was wrong. It seems pretty straightforward to me, the concept? But if it works it will give me a headache :). I have no problem with 'energy' being a relation and not its own 'thingie'. But if this works you will have to question the conservation of energy it seems to me??

"In quantum energy teleportation, a physicist first makes a measurement on each of two entangled particles. The measurement on the first particle injects quantum energy into the two-particle system, which is possible because there are always quantum fluctuations  in the energy of any particle. This energy can then be immediately extracted at the second particle by making a second carefully chosen measurement on that particle. Throughout the process, the energy of the overall system remains the same. "

Sounds very much like those clever sales "Get two to the price of one!" And that gives me a headache.
==

And here is the preprint Energy-Entanglement Relation for Quantum Energy Teleportation by Japanese physicist Masahiro Hotta of Tohoku University.
« Last Edit: 13/01/2011 09:43:07 by yor_on »

#### yor_on

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #21 on: 13/01/2011 09:59:20 »
And as long as we're on it..

Sorry, will try to find something you can read without being subscribed.
Una momento.

Okay here is the original paper. the joint winner of the Nobel Prize for medicine in 2008, Luc Montagnier is claiming that DNA can send 'electromagnetic imprints' of it self into distant cells and fluids which can then be used by enzymes to create copies of the original DNA. Meaning Quantum teleportation.

But I still find the 'energy idea above this even more surprising :)
And this idea is not a happy camper. A lot of scientific flack hammering this one :)
==

Maybe 'Quantum teleportation' is a little to much though?
Don't know what he means actually?

He seems to have a history of ah, surprising ideas :) Which is good in one way, bad in another. It's good to have ideas, but if you're trying to push them as being the certified truth? Then we get into another shoe altogether as you English say, or don't say? See if I care huh :)

Take a look Here. 2009

==

Eh, this is not mine but do I wish :)

"Honest! My DNA teleported into her. I never touched her. I swear it."
« Last Edit: 13/01/2011 11:49:16 by yor_on »

#### lightarrow

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #22 on: 13/01/2011 16:52:57 »
"In quantum energy teleportation, a physicist first makes a measurement on each of two entangled particles. The measurement on the first particle injects quantum energy into the two-particle system, which is possible because there are always quantum fluctuations  in the energy of any particle. This energy can then be immediately extracted at the second particle by making a second carefully chosen measurement on that particle. Throughout the process, the energy of the overall system remains the same. "
Ok, but it's impossible to know "a priori" the result of the measurement on the first particle, so you don't know "a priori" which amount of energy will be teleported in the other, so you cannot send information in this way.

#### yor_on

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #23 on: 13/01/2011 18:05:53 »
Maybe not, to me it depends on what one consider 'meaningful information' to be. For me , if now a plant get something out of 'energy', I would consider that to have to be seen as 'information' too. To me it makes it a da*n bit (no pun intended) more important than 'qbits'. As it actually is seen to work on a practical plane. If I got it right that is :)

#### Airthumbs

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##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #24 on: 13/01/2011 19:01:34 »
But you can easily send information using two entangled particles!!  You just have to have the language sorted out before you attempt anything.

Ok lets say one wiggle is a 0 and two wiggles is a 1.   Using this technique you would have binary code.

From what I understand, if one of these particles is made to rotate clockwise then the other entangled particle will have to be rotating the opposite way.

Of course if I am wrong and I may well be then none of the above would work!

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### What is the maximum speed of information?
« Reply #24 on: 13/01/2011 19:01:34 »