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Author Topic: Why does heating increase mass?  (Read 42332 times)

Offline Soul Surfer

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #25 on: 26/01/2011 23:10:49 »
It is energy that is conserved not mass if you check the total energy of both of he systems they will be the same when you include the energy of the photon
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #26 on: 27/01/2011 13:46:04 »
How does a more energetic object weigh more?
Gravity pulls on the energy.

How does gravity pull on the energy?

Gravitational time dilation slows down the lower part of a moving particle more than the upper part of it, which causes the particle to turn, which causes the particle to hit the floor of the box, that the particle is in, more often than the ceiling of the box, which causes a downwards pressure on the box, which pressure we call weight.
« Last Edit: 27/01/2011 13:48:01 by jartza »
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #27 on: 27/01/2011 14:40:45 »
It is energy that is conserved not mass if you check the total energy of both of he systems they will be the same when you include the energy of the photon

It's a fact that mass is conserved.

That mass is not conserved is just an opinion. It's a very common and very sticky opinion. Maybe it's a "meme"... or "paradigm". 

Now maybe somebody can show me a case where closed systems weight decreases, or inertia decreases.

It's not a closed system if photons come out of it.
 

Offline imatfaal

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #28 on: 27/01/2011 15:22:44 »
That only really works when you use mass energy equivalence to posit a pseudo-mass for the photon - electron-positron annihilation has two massive particles interacting and emitting two energetic but massless particles.  mass just isn't conserved - energy is.  mass is the energy of a particle at rest - this is not a valid case for the photon. 

energy is conserved - mass is not necessarily conserved except when you are actually calculating energy but declaring it as mass
« Last Edit: 27/01/2011 19:52:55 by imatfaal »
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #29 on: 27/01/2011 15:47:53 »
That only really works when you use mass energy equivalence to posit a pseudo-mass for the photon - electron-positron annihilation has two massive particles interacting and emitting two energetic but massless particles.  mass just isn't conserved - energy is.  mass is the energy of a particle at zero momentum - this is not a valid case for the photon. 

energy is conserved - mass is not necessarily conserved except when you are actually calculating energy but declaring it as mass


Hmmmm  how does a physicist decide if some box sitting in her table is changing its mass or not?



Physicist puts the box on a scale.
All scales share the opinion that a photon in a box has some weight.





« Last Edit: 27/01/2011 16:27:27 by jartza »
 

Offline imatfaal

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #30 on: 27/01/2011 16:37:34 »
weight≠mass 

You're flogging a dead horse - photons have many properties, states and characteristics; mass is not one of them. 
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #31 on: 27/01/2011 17:20:08 »
weight≠mass 

You're flogging a dead horse - photons have many properties, states and characteristics; mass is not one of them. 


Everyone has a right to have their own opinion, I guess.

But what would impress me would be someone showing me a case where any kind of mass measuring device measures a closed box changing its mass.

Does any mass measuring device exist?
 

Offline simplified

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #32 on: 27/01/2011 17:39:37 »
If photons create weight do they lose energy for it?
 

Offline syhprum

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #33 on: 27/01/2011 21:02:02 »
If a spaceship travels faster its apparent mass increases as per special relativity, it seems to me logical that when you heat a body and make its molecules move faster there should be an increase in mass.
 

Offline lightarrow

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #34 on: 27/01/2011 21:28:14 »
Jartza wrote:
Quote
Well why not put this conservation law into use.
Let's put a proton and an electron in a box. After a while there is a
hydrogen atom and a photon in the box. We close the box carefully. Now
the mass of this box will not change. So from the law of conservation of mass:

mass of proton + mass of electron = mass of hydrogen atom + mass of photon in a box
Essentially you are right. It's a bit more complicated because when you say "mass of a photon..." it means zero. For this reason, you cannot say "law of conservation of mass". But the confined electromagnetic energy which comes from the fact there is a photon in the box, does add mass to the box.

Quote
let's solve mass of hydrogen atom from the equation:

mass of hydrogen atom = mass of proton + mass of electron - mass of photon in a box

We see that mass of hydrogen atom is SMALLER than mass of one proton and one electron.

(You said it's larger)
You are right, it was my mistake, the mass of the atom is lower than the sum of the masses of electron and proton.
« Last Edit: 27/01/2011 21:30:31 by lightarrow »
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #35 on: 28/01/2011 04:10:24 »
If photons create weight do they lose energy for it?

No, weighing does not use energy, as far as I understand.
« Last Edit: 29/01/2011 00:40:23 by jartza »
 

Offline lightarrow

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #36 on: 28/01/2011 11:15:56 »
Everyone has a right to have their own opinion, I guess.

But what would impress me would be someone showing me a case where any kind of mass measuring device measures a closed box changing its mass.

Does any mass measuring device exist?
Yes, it's this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BalanceMineralPachuca.JPG
 

Offline lightarrow

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #37 on: 28/01/2011 11:19:14 »
If photons create weight do they lose energy for it?
No. There is no "convertion" from energy to weight, because energy, in a confined region of space, is *already* weight (that is, *mass*).
 

Offline syhprum

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #38 on: 28/01/2011 11:47:53 »
Lightarrow

"the mass of the atom is lower than the sum of the masses of electron and proton"
I find this a little confusing, I appreciate than when an Electron and Proton are united to form a Neutron there is a loss of mass due to the emission of an antineutrino but when a naked Proton acquires an Electron to form a Hydrogen atom how does the loss of mass occur
 

Offline lightarrow

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #39 on: 28/01/2011 16:58:38 »
Lightarrow

"the mass of the atom is lower than the sum of the masses of electron and proton"
I find this a little confusing, I appreciate than when an Electron and Proton are united to form a Neutron there is a loss of mass due to the emission of an antineutrino but when a naked Proton acquires an Electron to form a Hydrogen atom how does the loss of mass occur
Because of the binding energy. Neutrino has mass only from a few years ago  :)
Once, the neutron decay or nuclear fission was described saying that "some binding energy of sub-nucleonic particles has converted into energy" but it's an improper term.
Anyway, with an electron and a proton in an atom is the same: some energy is released (in the form of electromagnetic radiation) after the bond proton-electron to form hydrogen atom and so the atom has less mass. If you accept that an heated object gains mass, you can accept that if it radiates heat away, it loses mass. With the proton-electron which radiate away EM energy is the same: the mass of the excited atom is equal to the sum of masses of electron+proton; the atom after having released the photon, is lighter.
« Last Edit: 28/01/2011 17:01:47 by lightarrow »
 

Offline syhprum

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #40 on: 28/01/2011 20:02:09 »
I had in mind the gravitational equivalent when a body falls from a quasi infinite distance to a gravitating body, in this case there is an obvious acquisition of energy and relativity mass in addition to the mass of the captured body.
Are the maths similar when a proton captures an electron. 
Of course they cannot be as the effective mass is reducad ?
 

Offline yor_on

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #41 on: 28/01/2011 20:07:26 »
Oh yes, they say that photons curve space-time with their momentum.



That depends, according to the Bonnor beam model. But there are several views to that one. Also, as a photon only can be shown in its interaction, where do those beams 'exist'?
 

Offline lightarrow

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #42 on: 28/01/2011 20:09:32 »
I had in mind the gravitational equivalent when a body falls from a quasi infinite distance to a gravitating body, in this case there is an obvious acquisition of energy and relativity mass in addition to the mass of the captured body.
In the gravitational case I sincerely cannot say to have dissolved all the doubts, so I can't answer you  [:-'(]
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #43 on: 29/01/2011 00:50:50 »
Oh yes, they say that photons curve space-time with their momentum.



That depends, according to the Bonnor beam model. But there are several views to that one. Also, as a photon only can be shown in its interaction, where do those beams 'exist'?

Photon obviously curves space-time if million photons and trillion
massive objects say it does, and some very special and rare photons
say it doesn't.
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #44 on: 29/01/2011 00:55:54 »
When electron falls into proton, mass of electron INCREASES, mass of proton DECREASES, and vacuum's em-field becomes exited and its mass INCREASES.
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #45 on: 29/01/2011 05:44:33 »
When small mass falls into large mass, small mass loses some energy, which energy goes into the large mass.

Here is derivation:

Case 1:
Equal masses fall into each other, both heat up. The heat is responsible for some of
the mass of the objects.

Case 2:
Two objects with equal masses but non-equal heat capacities fall into each other,
the object with larger heat capacity will be responsible for bigger part of the
mass of the 2-object system.

Case 3:
There are 2 objects with equal mass, one object is ground to small pieces, and
slowly poured onto the other object. The grinding and slow pouring of object number
one probably does not inspire object number 2 to donate any extra energy to the
ground object. So gravitational energy transfer in case 3 is same as it is
in case 2, and thermodynamical energy transfer in case 3 is same as it is in case 2.
(the ground object is heating the other object)

 

Offline yor_on

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #46 on: 29/01/2011 12:31:02 »
Jartza, assume that photons do 'curve' SpaceTime as they 'Propagates. Then you would have that adding to the topology it seems to me, distorting it. Should be possible to see if it was that way looking at the light reaching us. But I've never seen any such proposals?

That should mean that space around any sun would be extremely distorted due to all those photons propagating, also possibly dynamically changing with solar spots etc. And if I accept that then I find it easy to accept my suggestion that virtual particles are the 'missing mass' not found. And then I will just wait for father Christamax to give me a big big present :) preferably a Suzuki 1000 cc ::))

And of course I will also create world peace :)
 

Offline lightarrow

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #47 on: 29/01/2011 14:49:10 »
When electron falls into proton, mass of electron INCREASES, mass of proton DECREASES, and vacuum's em-field becomes exited and its mass INCREASES.
Which movie is it?  :)
 

Offline jartza

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #48 on: 29/01/2011 17:02:35 »
When electron falls into proton, mass of electron INCREASES, mass of proton DECREASES, and vacuum's em-field becomes exited and its mass INCREASES.
Which movie is it?  :)


I don't like that comment. Electron in an atom actually has quite a lot
speed.

Note that when an electron and a proton fuse into an atom the electron and the
proton move through a voltage drop that is more like 10000 V than 13.6 V.



« Last Edit: 29/01/2011 17:29:06 by jartza »
 

Offline yor_on

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #49 on: 29/01/2011 19:35:46 »
Ahh Jartza, I thought it was fun.
Don't get it wrong, I like this discussion, it's interesting.
And I think I talk for us all.

(Yep a AVBE that's me:)

A Very Big Ego ::))
 

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Why does heating increase mass?
« Reply #49 on: 29/01/2011 19:35:46 »

 

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