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Author Topic: How can matter be made of light?  (Read 14440 times)

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« on: 24/01/2011 10:11:09 »
While I write up some preliminaries, mostly mathematical, perhaps it would be a nice exercise for now, for people here to demonstrate pros and cons. This is your chance to express why you think matter is or is not made of light, and how that light makes matter.


 

Offline Soul Surfer

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #1 on: 24/01/2011 15:57:22 »
Light energy can only make matter in the presence of other matter. For example a high energy gamma ray can interact with an atom to produce an electron positron pair.  The atom will recoil from the interaction and the photon will continue with reduced energy.  (see pair production) Without any matter present photons just don't interact they always pass right through each other.

A photon is its own antiparticle and one photon can null out another under certain circumstances but the energy pops up with the photons somewhere else i.e. in interference or diffraction fringes.
 

Offline williampcochran

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #2 on: 24/01/2011 19:18:49 »
well photons and quarks are interchangeable, so a photon is just one of many configurations of a quark.
 

Offline Geezer

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #3 on: 24/01/2011 19:28:56 »
To avoid confusion between hypothesis and mainstream science, new theories should be posted in that forum.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #4 on: 24/01/2011 23:29:07 »
No Geezer, I object. None of the material in this thread presented by me will be -- new theories. So it is reasonable to keep the thread here for now. This is purely educational.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #5 on: 25/01/2011 00:35:49 »
And to prove this is not a new theory, it was first investigated by a group of Glaswegian scientists.

http://members.chello.nl/~n.benschop/electron.pdf

..back in 1997.
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #6 on: 25/01/2011 03:32:21 »
And to prove this is not a new theory, it was first investigated by a group of Glaswegian scientists.

New theory here doesn't mean the theory has been proposed recently.  It means you're proposing a theory that seeks to overturn and replace mainstream science and that doesn't have much mainstream acceptance.

String theory, even though I'm not a huge fan, is not a new theory due to mainstream acceptance.  The toroidal photon electron is.
 

Offline Geezer

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #7 on: 25/01/2011 05:00:38 »
it was first investigated by a group of Glaswegian scientists.

Is Eindhoven anywhere near Kelvingrove, or is it off Byres Road?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #8 on: 28/01/2011 08:47:13 »
it was first investigated by a group of Glaswegian scientists.

Is Eindhoven anywhere near Kelvingrove, or is it off Byres Road?

I think you will find a glaswegian is either a resident or a native.
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #9 on: 28/01/2011 15:28:10 »
Maybe this is a good place to post a question that came up in another thread.

Are electrons stable particles?  Left alone in the universe, would they spontaneously decay to photons? 

How about other fundamental particles?  Would a lone quark, a lone W/Z boson, a lone neutrino or a lone gluon decay into photons?  Yes, I know that some of these particles are unstable and quickly turn into something else (quarks into jets of hadrons, for example), but is the final decay product of all these purely photons?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #10 on: 31/01/2011 09:13:45 »
Maybe this is a good place to post a question that came up in another thread.

Are electrons stable particles?  Left alone in the universe, would they spontaneously decay to photons? 

How about other fundamental particles?  Would a lone quark, a lone W/Z boson, a lone neutrino or a lone gluon decay into photons?  Yes, I know that some of these particles are unstable and quickly turn into something else (quarks into jets of hadrons, for example), but is the final decay product of all these purely photons?

They are very light, and so it's difficult to say whether it would eventually decay into other particles. Science cannot rule it out 100% so at this moment in time, this is an unanswered question of physics.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #11 on: 31/01/2011 09:16:22 »
Light energy can only make matter in the presence of other matter.

Whilst this might be true, to some extent, it is not a good enough reason. Virtual particles are allowed to exist for very short periods of time, where a virtual photon can change into an electron and positron and can act like a catalyst for the production of new particles via photon transmutation (decay). In other words, all you would still be left with would be the photons.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #12 on: 31/01/2011 09:17:10 »
well photons and quarks are interchangeable, so a photon is just one of many configurations of a quark.


Photons do not have any sub-configurations. Photons are not made from quarks. Photons are very fundamental that way.
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #13 on: 31/01/2011 13:33:42 »
Maybe this is a good place to post a question that came up in another thread.

Are electrons stable particles?  Left alone in the universe, would they spontaneously decay to photons? 

How about other fundamental particles?  Would a lone quark, a lone W/Z boson, a lone neutrino or a lone gluon decay into photons?  Yes, I know that some of these particles are unstable and quickly turn into something else (quarks into jets of hadrons, for example), but is the final decay product of all these purely photons?

They are very light, and so it's difficult to say whether it would eventually decay into other particles. Science cannot rule it out 100% so at this moment in time, this is an unanswered question of physics.

So it seems there's doubt as to whether everything does, in fact, decay into photons.  I would say that's reason enough to doubt the idea that all matter is made of light.  This is a major claim, so it requires more than "science cannot rule it out 100%" in order to be accepted.
 

Offline yor_on

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #14 on: 31/01/2011 14:02:54 »
What one might say JP is that light and matter somehow can transform into each other? Otherwise I think exactly the same, they are not 'equivalently exactly the same'. If I assume, and I'm assuming bigtime here :) that what makes a 'particle' is its 'relations' and then do the same for a photon there will be a difference in that all 'matter particles' will demand a 'place' in our three dimensional reality whilst light demand nothing of the sort. The funny thing is that light, even though in so many ways not 'existing' inside SpaceTime, still will interact.

So, what are dimensions?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #15 on: 31/01/2011 14:41:25 »
Maybe this is a good place to post a question that came up in another thread.

Are electrons stable particles?  Left alone in the universe, would they spontaneously decay to photons? 

How about other fundamental particles?  Would a lone quark, a lone W/Z boson, a lone neutrino or a lone gluon decay into photons?  Yes, I know that some of these particles are unstable and quickly turn into something else (quarks into jets of hadrons, for example), but is the final decay product of all these purely photons?

They are very light, and so it's difficult to say whether it would eventually decay into other particles. Science cannot rule it out 100% so at this moment in time, this is an unanswered question of physics.

So it seems there's doubt as to whether everything does, in fact, decay into photons.  I would say that's reason enough to doubt the idea that all matter is made of light.  This is a major claim, so it requires more than "science cannot rule it out 100%" in order to be accepted.

I don't fully understand the crux of your arguement. How is this against the photon-only conjecture?
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #16 on: 31/01/2011 20:51:17 »
You're making a huge claim that disagrees with the standard model without offering a good reason to believe it.  Sure, we can't disprove that everything is made of photons.  But science doesn't work by forcing scientists to disprove all radical claims.  It works by fighting to get them accepted by knocking down all objections.

Prove to me that all particles will eventually spontaneously decay into photons and remain photons forever and I'll grant you that in some sense, everything is "made of photons." 
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #17 on: 31/01/2011 22:25:48 »
You're making a huge claim that disagrees with the standard model without offering a good reason to believe it.  Sure, we can't disprove that everything is made of photons.  But science doesn't work by forcing scientists to disprove all radical claims.  It works by fighting to get them accepted by knocking down all objections.

Prove to me that all particles will eventually spontaneously decay into photons and remain photons forever and I'll grant you that in some sense, everything is "made of photons." 

On the contrary. The claim in not radical, it is a fringe theory. Also, if science does not prove it wrong, then it would be in the ''not even wrong catagory'' and that would be a failure of science to classify it under as that... the job of science is to provide experimental varification either way.
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #18 on: 31/01/2011 23:09:25 »
"Not even wrong" assumes that it isn't wrong in the first place.  What technical claims does this theory make and what is the evidence that it isn't wrong?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #19 on: 31/01/2011 23:19:15 »
"Not even wrong" assumes that it isn't wrong in the first place.  What technical claims does this theory make and what is the evidence that it isn't wrong?

I know what it means. You are the one who said ''Sure, we can't disprove that everything is made of photons.''

Hence why I said what I said.
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #20 on: 31/01/2011 23:37:23 »
Ok, but

Quote
What technical claims does this theory make and what is the evidence that it isn't wrong?
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #21 on: 01/02/2011 09:22:07 »
Ok, but

Quote
What technical claims does this theory make and what is the evidence that it isn't wrong?

I don't get you. Why you asking me that?

You are the one who said ''Sure, we can't disprove that everything is made of photons.''

Since you said this, you can surely answer your own question:

''What technical claims does this theory make and what is the evidence that it isn't wrong?''
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #22 on: 01/02/2011 12:34:37 »
You're the one suggesting that all matter is made of light!  I don't even know what technical claims you're making. 

If I'm going to be put in charge of defending it, I'll just say it's all hand-waving nonsense and there is no evidence that it isn't wrong!  QED.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #23 on: 01/02/2011 12:54:09 »
You're the one suggesting that all matter is made of light!  I don't even know what technical claims you're making. 

If I'm going to be put in charge of defending it, I'll just say it's all hand-waving nonsense and there is no evidence that it isn't wrong!  QED.

Well actually, charge plays a pivotal part in the understanding of conservation when the decay process occurs between a positron and an electron meeting. And as you know, which is equally pivotal to the only photon conjecture, is the presence of annihilation releasing photon energy.

So yes, charge is very much important, and requires very little arm waving.


ps... lol I just relaized you said ''put in charge'' not that fundamental charge was mentioned. But you want points for the only photon conjecture, this is one of them.
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #24 on: 01/02/2011 14:19:13 »
Yes, but can you answer this question yet?
 

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How can matter be made of light?
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