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Author Topic: How can matter be made of light?  (Read 14438 times)

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #25 on: 01/02/2011 14:50:54 »
Yes, but can you answer this question yet?

To be able to falsify a theory, is a good theory indeed. Any true noble scientist who looks upon a theory which has been falsified do not surely look upon it with displeasure or a matter of failure. But rather a matter of progress.

There are ways in which this theory can be falsified, but requires extensive research. Photons belong to a class of four particles which make up a family. If an annilation of a particle with its antipartner create particles which are not part of this family, then it is most likely that it cannot be said for all matter to be made of light, or the BOSON family.

But there is more evidence which points to the idea light does make matter. We see particles come out of high-energy photon fields all the time. Annilation of almost all matter we have observed has a by-product of photon energy. In fact, the evidence is so overwhelming, it is understandable how one might think it is not falsifiable.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #26 on: 01/02/2011 15:01:31 »
Another way we could falsify this is if we can find a direct mathematical proof which forbids breaking the U(1) combination of SU(2)xU(1) symmetry.
 

Offline Geezer

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #27 on: 01/02/2011 18:35:07 »
I don't think JP said anything about falsification. He asked you to describe the technical claims of your theory and provide some empirical evidence to support them.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #28 on: 01/02/2011 19:43:45 »
I don't think JP said anything about falsification. He asked you to describe the technical claims of your theory and provide some empirical evidence to support them.

Why don't you stay out of debates which you cannot follow? He asked:

''What technical claims does this theory make and what is the evidence that it isn't wrong?''
 

Offline Geezer

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #29 on: 01/02/2011 20:50:05 »
I think if you reread that you'll discover it also says -

"What technical claims does this theory make, and what is the evidence that it is right?" (right, as in "not wrong")
« Last Edit: 02/02/2011 08:00:14 by Geezer »
 

Offline JP

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #30 on: 02/02/2011 01:53:05 »
I did mention falsifiability on purpose.  I really don't care to hear the reasons for liking an all-photon-matter theory.  I can list many reasons for liking a lot of theories that have been later proved wrong. (Would anyone care for some aether?)  I care to hear points on which they're falsifiable.  But more importantly, I care to hear specific technical claims made by this theory.  I've asked for this a few times, and so far I've gotten word salad as a response.  Just give me a handful of specific technical claims and we'll work from there on whether it's a falsifiable theory or not.

The closest you've given so far is:
1) Photons belong to a class of four particles which make up a family. If an annilation of a particle with its antipartner create particles which are not part of this family, then it is most likely that it cannot be said for all matter to be made of light, or the BOSON family.

2)We see particles come out of high-energy photon fields all the time. Annilation of almost all matter we have observed has a by-product of photon energy.

Do you agree that these are the specific technical claims made by your theory?  Are there others?
« Last Edit: 02/02/2011 02:05:20 by JP »
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #31 on: 02/02/2011 12:52:02 »
I'll need to come back to this, I don't have much time right now.
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #32 on: 02/02/2011 18:41:29 »
If JJ Thompson's photon exists, and it does as proven by Larmor radiation, then the photon is created by a moving or an accelerating charged particle with respect to an observer. Experiments at the Stanford linear accelerator have shown matter, in certain circumstances, can be created from the collision of two beams of radiation. Therefore the original question is valid. More importantly is the question of what property of space causes charged particles to emit photons? You could say the permeability of space but that does not describe space only a property of it. I think matter is made of space and space is an electric field such that when you have a moving or accelerating charged particle in that field they emit radiation.
« Last Edit: 02/02/2011 18:49:53 by Ron Hughes »
 

Offline yor_on

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #33 on: 02/02/2011 19:29:27 »
Well, as for photon's being able to produce particles? Yep, they can. As for how long it would take to make enough particles filling a cup?

How about a hundred thousand years? 200 000? More? CERN is the place with the strongest accelerators. And how will we make them not spontaneously decay? And how will we make them arrange themselves into stable matter? They won't do it just because I want it, as far as I know?
 

Offline Ron Hughes

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« Reply #34 on: 03/02/2011 03:03:41 »
yor_on, I'm confused. How is your post related to mine, maybe not? I would think an important question to ask is how did the electric field that space is made of get here. I don't know. It could have been here before the Universe and was somehow compressed into the matter that made our Universe.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2011 03:16:36 by Ron Hughes »
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #35 on: 03/02/2011 11:13:47 »
I did mention falsifiability on purpose.  I really don't care to hear the reasons for liking an all-photon-matter theory.  I can list many reasons for liking a lot of theories that have been later proved wrong. (Would anyone care for some aether?)  I care to hear points on which they're falsifiable.  But more importantly, I care to hear specific technical claims made by this theory.  I've asked for this a few times, and so far I've gotten word salad as a response.  Just give me a handful of specific technical claims and we'll work from there on whether it's a falsifiable theory or not.

The closest you've given so far is:
1) Photons belong to a class of four particles which make up a family. If an annilation of a particle with its antipartner create particles which are not part of this family, then it is most likely that it cannot be said for all matter to be made of light, or the BOSON family.

2)We see particles come out of high-energy photon fields all the time. Annilation of almost all matter we have observed has a by-product of photon energy.

Do you agree that these are the specific technical claims made by your theory?  Are there others?

There are others.

A scientist called Vernon Brown made it clear to the world that a photon travelling a bent spacetime path is either analogous or does experience a charge. So one theory right now is that a photon could be in a topological knot, probably following some bent path which cannot be much larger than a compton wavelength. The knot is just another way of saying something like a photon moving in a circular like path squeezed into a very small area, making up all particles, but more notably an electron - a little like the paper I cited from the Glaswegians.

I however, have a different view. I don't think the photon exists inside particles, those particles are just a different phase of a photon. To understand how this happens, would be to understand inertia and even the origin of mass. To disprove this theory once again, would also be to find a Higgs Boson. Then we don't require a full understanding of this theory to understand how particles with matter arise.
 

Offline imatfaal

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #36 on: 03/02/2011 12:07:26 »
I did mention falsifiability on purpose.  I really don't care to hear the reasons for liking an all-photon-matter theory.  I can list many reasons for liking a lot of theories that have been later proved wrong. (Would anyone care for some aether?)  I care to hear points on which they're falsifiable.  But more importantly, I care to hear specific technical claims made by this theory.  I've asked for this a few times, and so far I've gotten word salad as a response.  Just give me a handful of specific technical claims and we'll work from there on whether it's a falsifiable theory or not.

The closest you've given so far is:
1) Photons belong to a class of four particles which make up a family. If an annilation of a particle with its antipartner create particles which are not part of this family, then it is most likely that it cannot be said for all matter to be made of light, or the BOSON family.

2)We see particles come out of high-energy photon fields all the time. Annilation of almost all matter we have observed has a by-product of photon energy.

Do you agree that these are the specific technical claims made by your theory?  Are there others?

There are others.

A scientist called Vernon Brown made it clear to the world that a photon travelling a bent spacetime path is either analogous or does experience a charge. So one theory right now is that a photon could be in a topological knot, probably following some bent path which cannot be much larger than a compton wavelength. The knot is just another way of saying something like a photon moving in a circular like path squeezed into a very small area, making up all particles, but more notably an electron - a little like the paper I cited from the Glaswegians.

I however, have a different view. I don't think the photon exists inside particles, those particles are just a different phase of a photon. To understand how this happens, would be to understand inertia and even the origin of mass. To disprove this theory once again, would also be to find a Higgs Boson. Then we don't require a full understanding of this theory to understand how particles with matter arise.

Wow - I think that's the first time that a NSF poster has been put forward as evidence in a citation.  Vernon's theories are all very well and he has spent a huge amount of time on them - but they are a huge distance from being even close to accepted - or being "made clear to the world". 

I don't understand your use of "phase"; light (waves in general) has/have a well defined property called phase - and this does not lead to the creation of mass.  Mass comes from the spontaneous symmetry breaking of the scalar field of the higg's - if it doesn't (and it's unproven at moment), there is gonna be a lot of head-scratching in Geneve.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #37 on: 03/02/2011 13:03:05 »
I did mention falsifiability on purpose.  I really don't care to hear the reasons for liking an all-photon-matter theory.  I can list many reasons for liking a lot of theories that have been later proved wrong. (Would anyone care for some aether?)  I care to hear points on which they're falsifiable.  But more importantly, I care to hear specific technical claims made by this theory.  I've asked for this a few times, and so far I've gotten word salad as a response.  Just give me a handful of specific technical claims and we'll work from there on whether it's a falsifiable theory or not.

The closest you've given so far is:
1) Photons belong to a class of four particles which make up a family. If an annilation of a particle with its antipartner create particles which are not part of this family, then it is most likely that it cannot be said for all matter to be made of light, or the BOSON family.

2)We see particles come out of high-energy photon fields all the time. Annilation of almost all matter we have observed has a by-product of photon energy.

Do you agree that these are the specific technical claims made by your theory?  Are there others?

There are others.

A scientist called Vernon Brown made it clear to the world that a photon travelling a bent spacetime path is either analogous or does experience a charge. So one theory right now is that a photon could be in a topological knot, probably following some bent path which cannot be much larger than a compton wavelength. The knot is just another way of saying something like a photon moving in a circular like path squeezed into a very small area, making up all particles, but more notably an electron - a little like the paper I cited from the Glaswegians.

I however, have a different view. I don't think the photon exists inside particles, those particles are just a different phase of a photon. To understand how this happens, would be to understand inertia and even the origin of mass. To disprove this theory once again, would also be to find a Higgs Boson. Then we don't require a full understanding of this theory to understand how particles with matter arise.

Wow - I think that's the first time that a NSF poster has been put forward as evidence in a citation.  Vernon's theories are all very well and he has spent a huge amount of time on them - but they are a huge distance from being even close to accepted - or being "made clear to the world". 

I don't understand your use of "phase"; light (waves in general) has/have a well defined property called phase - and this does not lead to the creation of mass.  Mass comes from the spontaneous symmetry breaking of the scalar field of the higg's - if it doesn't (and it's unproven at moment), there is gonna be a lot of head-scratching in Geneve.

Oh good point. This is not to be mistaken as the [phase of a photon]. This is a transition phase.

Also, I did not know Vernon was a member here.
 

Offline QuantumClue

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« Reply #38 on: 03/02/2011 13:16:25 »
My post 342421 actually has a lot in common with the idea of phase transitions explaining how a photon can transmutate into matter. Here wiki actually has something surprising to say about this too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_transition


Relevance in cosmologySymmetry-breaking phase transitions play an important role in cosmology. It has been speculated that, in the hot early universe, the vacuum (i.e. the various quantum fields that fill space) possessed a large number of symmetries. As the universe expanded and cooled, the vacuum underwent a series of symmetry-breaking phase transitions. For example, the electroweak transition broke the SU(2)×U(1) symmetry of the electroweak field into the U(1) symmetry of the present-day electromagnetic field.

 

Offline yor_on

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How can matter be made of light?
« Reply #39 on: 03/02/2011 20:24:06 »
yor_on, I'm confused. How is your post related to mine, maybe not? I would think an important question to ask is how did the electric field that space is made of get here. I don't know. It could have been here before the Universe and was somehow compressed into the matter that made our Universe.

Sorry Ron, I was looking at the main question, wanting to put it into perspective. To make particles by light is possible, as physics have proved already, but from that to fill a cup with it? And from that to make that lasting piece of matter? Nobody have ever been near it as far as I now? I think 'matter creation' have more mechanism(s) unknown to us, not that I can prove it other than by pointing out that what nature does every second, particle physics still can't.


It all depends on how one look at it of course. One might want to say that it's only the 'energy' missing for us :). Well, that 'only' is incredibly large, in fact more or less impossible to us, but nature manage it daily all the same


==

By the way "On the other hand, as shown by Jeans and H. Poincaré, it is demonstrable that if the motion of the material particles in light sources obeyed the laws of classical mechanics it would be impossible to derive the exact law of blackbody radiation, Planck’s law. It must therefore be assumed that traditional dynamics, even as modified by Einstein’s theory of relativity, is incapable of accounting for motion on a very small scale." by Louis de Broglie receiving the Nobel Prize 1929 .

So photons do not have a restmass, as defined.
« Last Edit: 05/02/2011 22:30:33 by yor_on »
 

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