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Author Topic: dark matter & plasma theory  (Read 6682 times)

Offline DoctorBeaver

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dark matter & plasma theory
« on: 06/03/2006 19:24:16 »
<whispers, "On another forum..."> we've been discussing dark matter. Now someone has said there that dark matter has been shown not to exist and superceded by plasma theory; specifically, "plasma containment theory". Now, I know about plasma and plasma containment in magnetic fields (or should I say, I'm aware of it), but how does that relate to dark matter? Or has the person who mentioned it been watching too much Star Trek?


 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #1 on: 06/03/2006 23:27:51 »
Plasma is a state of matter in which the nucleii and electrons are (mostly) detatched from each other and are interacting strongly electromagnetically.
Plasma containment usually involves the use of electrical or magnetic fields to confine the plasma

Typical stars are mostly plamas but they are mostly confined by their self gravitation.

Dark matter consists of particles that do not interect electromagnetically (or we would have observed them)but only interact gravitationally.  

From this it appears to be quite clear that these items are not in any way related and that either someone has got something wrong in their understandig of what they have been told or is just using big words to look intelligent

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Offline neilep

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #2 on: 07/03/2006 01:16:52 »
What's wrong with Star Trek ? ;-)
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #3 on: 07/03/2006 09:53:13 »
quote:
From this it appears to be quite clear that these items are not in any way related and that either someone has got something wrong in their understandig of what they have been told or is just using big words to look intelligent


Ian - That's exactly what I thought. Thank you for clarifying.

 
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Offline Ophiolite

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #4 on: 07/03/2006 10:12:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
Now someone has said there that dark matter has been shown not to exist and superceded by plasma theory; specifically, "plasma containment theory".........but how does that relate to dark matter? Or has the person who mentioned it been watching too much Star Trek?

Doctor Beaver,
I am unfamiliar with plasma containment theory, however, plasma cosmology has a reasonable pedigree (starting with Bierkaland in the 1920s?) and, according to its proponents, offers an alternative explanation to the Big Bang that obviates the need for dark matter. This may be what your correspondent is driving at.

Plasma cosmology is a natural outgrowth of thinking on the plasma universe, which postulates plasma permeating much of the Universe and being responsible for both large and small scale structure. (One thinks immediately of the filament like grouping of galaxies.)The ideas of both are set out quite well in a paper from 1990 by Hannes Alfven, acknowledged father of magnetohydrodynamics and world renowned plasma expert. You can access the entire paper here. http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloads/CosmologyAlfven.pdf

The concept was then popularised by Eric J. Lerner, in a book published in 1991. (Lerner, Eric, J. The Big Bang Never Happened Times Books. 1991. ISBN:0-679-740-49 paperback edition by 1st Vintage Books.)Lerner took more liberties with the hypothesis than Alfven would probably have liked.

It is certainly not mainstream thinking, but does have several vocal and active supporters. For example, in 2004 an open letter was published by a group of scientists in the New Scientist bemoaning the current policy on research funding which seems to be governed by dogmatism and prejudice in favour of "establishment" science. The specific case refers to the denial of funding for research into Plasma Cosmology. The Big Bang theory has been the generally accepted explanation of the origins of the Universe since 1965, in spite of serious theoretical problems. New observational evidence is now accumulating against Big Bang. Lerner and his supporters contend that Plasma Cosmology provides a superior basis for understanding the Universe. They protest that decisions on research funding are taken in the interests of supporting the status quo rather than advancing scientific understanding.
[From: Science stifled by dogma - http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/controversies/bigbang.htm#Letter]

If further inconsistencies cause eventual abandonment of the Big Bang theory then plasma cosmology would seem to be one of the contenders for replacing it.

An attempt to debunk specifically Lerner's book may be found here.
http://www.evolutionpages.com/big_bang_no_myth.htm

A very full reading list on the plasma universe in general is located here: http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/papers.html#COSMOLOGY, which is part of this site run by the IEEE Nuclear and Plasma Society: http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/TheUniverse.html
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #5 on: 07/03/2006 10:59:05 »
Ophiolite - thanks very much for that. It's not a theory I've come across before. I've added those links to my must-read list & will do so during the course of the day (when my caffeine level is sufficent to prevent me lapsing into catatonia).
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #6 on: 07/03/2006 23:20:41 »
Thanks ophiolite  I too had not come across that theory.  I can see some of the attractions but there appear to be many more incosistencies

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Offline Ophiolite

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #7 on: 08/03/2006 11:16:56 »
On the contrary, thank you both. I had been vaguely aware of the concept for some years. This thread prompted me to do a little library research, so that I now have a much better understanding.

Edit: I am still puzzled by the original reference to plasma containment theory. I suspect this may have been a slip on the part of the person arguing for the concept.
« Last Edit: 08/03/2006 11:18:53 by Ophiolite »
 

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #8 on: 09/03/2006 17:35:31 »
Looking at some of the sites regarding this, it would seem that the theory presumes there was never a singularity from which our universe originated, but rather that it cyclically goes through periods of expansion, followed by a collapse into a superdense form (but short of a singularity) before exploding again.  If one follows this logic, it would suggest that the collapse of matter cannot form singularities, and thus that black hole cannot have singularities.

Am I reading this all correctly?

In fact, one would ask, if this theory is taken to its conclusion, should not black holes themselves explode in a similar manner?  After all, if the total mass of the universe cannot hold itself together under gravitational collapse without immediately exploding again, then what chance a puny little black hole?



George
 

Offline annahljj

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #9 on: 28/03/2006 17:05:37 »
Somehow I came across your forum and have read a few interesting topics, about a month ago.  I came across this new, or maybe not so new, Theory.  I thought I should pass this on.  Here it is.

newbielink:http://www.viewzone.com/unified.field.html [nonactive]

also read comments

 
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #10 on: 28/03/2006 19:48:41 »
annahljj - I've just read that article & I have to say I'm not convinced by it at all. There's no science there, merely conjecture. I could probably write something similar myself claiming that the universe is made from a transparent form of tequila (for instance, inertia is due to the particles getting drunk).

I would, however, be interested to see a more authoritative and scientific paper on the subject. If you know of 1, could you post a link, please?

UPDATE

I've just had a better look at the Viewzone site and look at these snippets I found:-

"Government agents bulldoze the Oklahoma site believed to be a Phoenician furnace. Similar stories from New Zealand and Australia - what are they trying to hide?"

"A detailed examination of Mars photographs seems to show some very unusual structures. Could these be sand dunes or something even more significant?"

"The Case for the Face on Mars Richard Hoagland and other Mars enthusiasts reveal the status of the face, and its future study."

It doesn't seem like a serious science site, does it!

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« Last Edit: 28/03/2006 20:03:39 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline annahljj

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #11 on: 29/03/2006 05:17:33 »
I'm not a scientist and definitly not serious, just like to listen to you guys talk about science.  but here are a few pages. I wont bother you again---but I might peek in now and then.
newbielink:http://home.iprimus.com.au/longhair1/mm01.htm [nonactive]

newbielink:http://home.iprimus.com.au/longhair1/page1.html [nonactive]

newbielink:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/absoluteaether/ [nonactive]
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #12 on: 29/03/2006 09:28:35 »
Please do not be afraid to ask questions, but try to make sure that you look at some genuine textbook science in amongst all the speculation.  It is always a good idea to get a grasp of the standard view before taking on some of the alternatives.  Unfortunately on the web it can sometimes be difficult to tell the difference  :-)

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #13 on: 30/03/2006 00:53:16 »
annahljj - I didn't mean to offend you. I was merely trying to point out that the site you linked to seems a bit dubious. It was an observation, that's all.

As you may have noticed, not all of us here take things too seriously either.

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Re: dark matter & plasma theory
« Reply #13 on: 30/03/2006 00:53:16 »

 

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