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Offline neilep

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Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« on: 08/03/2006 13:50:30 »
As a tea toltaller I have never been drunk but I undestand that  the next day memory can be lost.

My experience is that last night I took some sleeping tablets, and what ususally happens with me, is that I start to geta chocolate craving when the tabs start to kick in...so, with a hop and and a skip I jumped up and got myself some choccy bars !!

This morning, I awoke to find a couple of the choccy bars still unopened on the floor.....

WHY do I have no recollection of not eating those choccy bars ?

Is it that the memory has been erased ?..is it that the abilty to recall the memory has been affected ?..was the memory of not eating them ever recorded ?...where is the bloody memory ?!!!!!!!!

I am finding this a little disturbing...can you shed some insight ?

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #1 on: 08/03/2006 14:28:46 »
Read Edward de Bono's book The Mechanism of Mind isbn 0-14-013787-4
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #2 on: 08/03/2006 14:50:13 »
Of all the things I have ever lost my memory is the one I miss the most. [8D]
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #3 on: 09/03/2006 17:44:42 »
Thank you for the reference Hadrian, in the interim.....if anyone has any information they can post here it would be greatly appreciated.
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #4 on: 09/03/2006 19:06:27 »
I suggested de Bono’s book because it is a very satisfactory model of the mind. I think it comes as near as anything to giving a unified theory of how the mind works.

This is my take on it in reference to your question the drug simply blocked the transfer of short term memory to long term memory. Memory in this model is created across the memory surface but in order to remain two things have to happen.

One it needs to connect to other data.
Two it needs to be strengthened by accessing it.

I would think that the drug prohibit one or both of these taking place.  On of the long term side effects of sleeping pills is they can they prevent dream sleep. Again under de Bono’s model dreams are undirected accessing of memory. Short term memory is like ROM in PC terms it not there for long term retrieval and quickly resets. The last time you went to a shop and bought something you can remember paying for it but probably not the change. If discovered a problem on the receipt while walking down the road you would recall the change. This is memory transfer in action. After discussing the event with the manager and your wife you would have assess to this data when ever you recalled the event.


What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2006 19:11:59 by Hadrian »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #5 on: 09/03/2006 22:06:38 »
Hadrian - There is some validity in what you say; but there's more to it than that. Here's 1 model for you to consider:-

In addition to short term memory (STM) & long term memory (LTM), there is medium term memory (MTM). STM is extremely transient and restricted (only 7 quanta at any time). From STM, the experience is transferred to MTM if, and only if, it is relevant. A good example of MTM may be if you buy someone a drink & later that evening you buy him another & remember what he had the first time; but the next time you meet him, you may not remember. So there are basically 2 transfers for the experience to pass through before it becomes part of LTM.

There are problems with that model (which I won't bother going into here), but as a basic framework it works reasonably well.
So, Niel's memory loss. Chris could probably explain the exact physiology behind it, but alcohol & many drugs interfere with the chemicals that keep the brain working. All activity in the brain needs those chemical reactions (& electrical impulses) to work. Chances are that the the sleeping tablets either contain, cause the production of, or inhibit, certain chemicals that cause the brain to work or not work.
It also has to be born in mind that the brain's natural state is sleep; it needs a certain chemical (orexin) to get it to wake up. The lower the level of orexin, the nearer we are to being asleep (the sudden drop in levels of it are a cause of narcolepsy). It is extrememly possible that orexin has something to do with the way data is processed in the brain; a low level could, maybe, stop data being processed properly. If that is the case, then it's not at all surprising that memory loss occurs.

There are many models of memory, and variations on themes of such. Among the more prominent are:-

Atkinson and Shiffrin (1968)
Craik and Lockhart (1972)
Hyde and Jenkins (1973) -in accordance with the above
Craik and Tulving (1975)
Glenberg et al. (1977)
Eysenck (1979) - also Eysenck & Eysenck (1980)
Morris et al. (1977)
Challis and Brodbeck (1992)

*removes serious head & dives into another bottle of claret*

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« Last Edit: 09/03/2006 22:23:05 by DoctorBeaver »
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #6 on: 09/03/2006 22:13:34 »
thanks thats very usefull. forgive my simple aproach it just my style. at least i was on the right track ( oh god was i? )

anyway i will take this on board and thanks again DB..

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #7 on: 09/03/2006 22:31:56 »
Thank you both. It is unsettling..it's the first time that has ever happened but your comments/explanations are very helpful.

Hey doctorBeaver..that's a nice site from your link ! :)

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #8 on: 11/03/2006 00:26:43 »
Neil - you should see the main site http://docslodge.frih.net

Gratuitous advertising? Me? Nah, I'd never do something like that! [:I]

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« Last Edit: 11/03/2006 00:28:38 by DoctorBeaver »
 

ROBERT

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #9 on: 20/03/2006 15:43:12 »
Neilep, I believe that you have a cat, they carry toxoplasma.

" Toxoplasma gondii , a parasitic protozoan, infects about 30/60% of people worldwide. The
latent toxoplasmosis, i.e. life-long presence of cysts in the brain and muscular tissues, has no
effect on human health. However, infected subjects score worse in psychomotor performance
tests
and have different personality profiles than Toxoplasma-negative subjects. The
mechanism of this effect is unknown; however, it is supposed that presence of parasites’ cysts
in the brain induces an increase of the concentration of dopamine."

http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/2005/06/your-cat-could-change-your-personality.html
http://www.natur.cuni.cz/%7Eflegr/toxo95.htm


" A May 2001 report from the NIMH discusses a genetic link between dopamine activity in the prefrontal cortex to working memory tasks.."
http://www.p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue12/Physics_12.htm
« Last Edit: 20/03/2006 15:59:09 by ROBERT »
 

Offline tweener

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #10 on: 22/03/2006 03:12:59 »
WOW - I'm blown away!  Is it abnormal to forget things?  I often lose entire segments of my day.  Sometimes I get to a place and have no memory at all of the trip getting there.  Often I find things on my desk and have no memory of how they got there.  Usually when my wife tells me something I have no memory of what she said, even that she said anything (at least that's her story).  

And, who is this Neil character anyway.....

:)

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John - The Eternal Pessimist.
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #11 on: 23/03/2006 05:30:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by ROBERT

Neilep, I believe that you have a cat, they carry toxoplasma.

" Toxoplasma gondii , a parasitic protozoan, infects about 30/60% of people worldwide. The
latent toxoplasmosis, i.e. life-long presence of cysts in the brain and muscular tissues, has no
effect on human health. However, infected subjects score worse in psychomotor performance
tests
and have different personality profiles than Toxoplasma-negative subjects. The
mechanism of this effect is unknown; however, it is supposed that presence of parasites’ cysts
in the brain induces an increase of the concentration of dopamine."

http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/2005/06/your-cat-could-change-your-personality.html
http://www.natur.cuni.cz/%7Eflegr/toxo95.htm


" A May 2001 report from the NIMH discusses a genetic link between dopamine activity in the prefrontal cortex to working memory tasks.."
http://www.p-i-a.com/Magazine/Issue12/Physics_12.htm




Hi Robert - Do you know if toxoplasmosis retinitis could cause the same memory problems.  I was diagnosed with this around 1979/80.  My vision went from 20/20 to 20/80.  The doctor said I was probably going to go blind.  Fortunately, the meds worked and the damage was reversed.  My vision went back to 20/20.  The doc called it "miraculous", and it was written up in some medical journal. I forget all the details, I was very young.

About 10 years ago I had a recurrence.  This time I was told that with the advances in medicine the chances of going blind were almost nill.  Again, after a month or so on meds, my eyes healed.  Since this last diagnosis, I have awful memory problems. Not to the point that it's debilitating, just extremely annoying.  I am, once again, experiencing the same symptoms as before. Can't get in to see eye doc for at least a month.  

One of the things I'm curious about is if it is inherited.  The doctors told me no, that I had nothing to worry about.  After reading on this site, http://www.dotpharmacy.co.uk/uptoxo.html I'm not so sure.  I wonder if it was passed to me by mother.  I also had a sister that was born hydracephalic and with spinabifida.  Also, mom was raised with alot of cats.  I was not.  I detest cats, can't stand for them to look at me or touch me.  (sorry Neil - don't hold it against me).

Thanks for any info you may have.

Carolyn
« Last Edit: 23/03/2006 05:34:25 by Carolyn »
 

ROBERT

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #12 on: 24/03/2006 14:54:08 »
Toxoplasmosis can be passed from mother to child, (aka "vertical transmission"),
 this is not the same as "inherited", (aka "genetic").

" Vertical Transmission:-
There is a direct transfer of the pathogen or parasite from a parent organism to his or her progeny."
http://ucdnema.ucdavis.edu/imagemap/nemmap/ENT135/EpiDefin.htm

" Inherit:-
Biology. To receive (a characteristic) from one's parents by genetic transmission."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=inherited


Here is an extract from a UK public health (NHS) site on toxoplasmosis:-

" Complications in unborn babies

The risk and severity of your baby’s infection depends on when in the pregnancy you were infected. Your baby is least likely to be affected if you become infected in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy (the first trimester). However, this is also the time when infection can prove most serious for your baby – with early infections there is an increased risk of miscarriage and even stillbirth, or severe health problems with the newborn baby. These include:-

jaundice, a large or abnormally shaped head due to excess fluid in the brain  (Hydrocephalus), learning disabilities, seizures, and an enlarged liver or spleen.

Babies whose mothers are infected during the last 28 weeks of pregnancy are more at risk of developing the condition, and may also develop serious health problems – although only a small percentage of these babies experience any problems or symptoms at birth. Instead, complications of the infection may develop in their 20s or 30s, such as:-

learning disabilities, hearing loss, and toxoplasmosis of the eye.
"

http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/en.aspx?printPage=1&articleId=370

Carolyn, you should seek treatment quickly, don't wait a month,
 from the NHS site:-
 " It is important to treat any complications of the scarring quickly to prevent further damage to the retina. Antibiotics and steroid tablets are often used, and if treated quickly, symptoms usually settle within a few weeks."

« Last Edit: 24/03/2006 16:09:22 by ROBERT »
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #13 on: 24/03/2006 19:17:25 »
Thanks Robert.  I knew "inherited" was incorrect, but I didn't know the correct terminology.  I appreciate all the info.  I live in a small town, thats the earliest I could get an appointment here.  I'll try to get in sooner with another doc in a nearby town.  I'm also going to be doing research to find out if there may be any herbal remedies, as I detest taking antibiotics.

Carolyn
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #14 on: 27/03/2006 02:06:33 »
Robert, thanks....my cat is an ex cat sitting in an urn on my bookshelf.

However, I have done a little research into my drug of choice ' Nitrazepam '...and I have found that a possible side effect is....err.....hmmm...ah !!....... loss of memory !!.....I'm still freaked a little....

..also, perhaps Chris can answer this one...I understand Nitrazepam is no longer available in the USA...why is that?...I haven't got that much !!
 

ROBERT

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #15 on: 27/03/2006 15:12:21 »
Hi Carolyn,
I’ve been thinking about your rare medical condition and a possible treatment occurred to me *,
 which you may wish to investigate.

There is a drug called “Plaquenil”, (Hydroxychloroquine), which was developed to treat Malaria, (Plasmodium Malariae). This drug was found to have anti-inflammatory properties and is used as a substitute for “steroids”, (Corticosteroids). Plaquenil accumulates in certain tissues, most famously the retina, but also the brain.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a601240.html

Toxoplasmosis is a plasmodial infection which can cause inflammation of the retina and the brain. Plaquenil is a drug which is anti-plasmodial, anti-inflammatory and which accumulates in the retina and brain: it seems a tailor-made treatment for your rare condition.

Now the bad news. Plaquenil has to be taken for weeks of months before it has an effect, so it is of little use in treating acute exacerbations. However it could be taken continuously to lower the number of parasites to prevent relapses, or reduce their frequency, i.e. in the same way that it is used to treat malaria where there is unavoidable chronic exposure to the parasite.

* WARNING
The idea of using Plaquenil to treat Toxoplasmosis is pure speculation on my part. You should investigate this therapy thoroughly, (e.g. contraindications & known interactions with other medications you may be taking, pregnancy, etc), and discuss it with your doctor before taking this drug.
Anyone taking plaquenil must have their retinas examined by an ophthalmologist every six months to check for ocular toxicity.
http://www.eugeneeyecare.com/conditions/Plaquenil-related_Eye_Problems.html

Given the disability Toxoplasmosis can cause then any possible treatment is worth investigation.
« Last Edit: 27/03/2006 15:27:48 by ROBERT »
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #16 on: 27/03/2006 17:55:23 »
Thanks Robert! I'm going to take all this info with me when I go to the doctor.  Hopefully, he will find a treatment that works forever.
 

another_someone

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #17 on: 31/03/2006 17:07:21 »
On a lighter note, this may be a solution you are looking for to manage your memory loss

http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/search.do?productCode=memsti&CMP=EMC-MAR_OFF10





George
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #18 on: 31/03/2006 18:01:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

On a lighter note, this may be a solution you are looking for to manage your memory loss

http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/search.do?productCode=memsti&CMP=EMC-MAR_OFF10





George




Awww Shucks, George.  I was so impressed with this product that I wanted to purchase it.  Unfortunately, I can't remember where I put my credit card.:D

Carolyn
« Last Edit: 31/03/2006 18:02:10 by Carolyn »
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #19 on: 31/03/2006 18:20:51 »
Can anyone remind me what we are talking about?

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #20 on: 31/03/2006 19:12:07 »
Hi everybody,

I'm new here...this looks like a great site. I hope to also post here soon.

 

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #21 on: 31/03/2006 19:32:06 »
Neil

Having had a sleep disorder since childhood, as well as a person taking cortico-steroids since 1965, it was necessary to apply the only availabe solution at hand in 1965 - a sleeping pill (tab) - and, thus, a dependency developed within a couple of years. I now am on Ambien (the chemical Zoldipem tartrate). It is very unsatisfactory because of the dull mental functioning one has upon waking and for a couple of hours aftertwards. Yet it is better than not sleeping for 72+ hours then crashing into a heap on a bed and sleeping for 24.

Taking Ambien, I have been aware of some of the side effects that have recently been reported. It is shocking and frankly worrying, especially when one reads the online pharmacutical information. It is not known how the checmical works. The reported problems, including yours, is reported in the New York Times, link below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/14/health/14sleep.html?ex=1143954000&en=3edbc8b081744d32&ei=5070

Switiching to Lunesta or Sonata helps most but not always - see artical - and talk with your physician.

Safeguards:

http://gk.nytimes.com/mem/gatekeeper.html?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/14/business/14ambienbox.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=71d4a097Q2FQ2AujvQ2Ac.rnw..Q3BQ2BQ2AQ2BGG1Q2AG2Q2AQ20XQ2Av-ndQ5CjnnQ2AQ20XW0vdjQ5Cv.hkyQ3B0p

Hope this helps.

The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #22 on: 31/03/2006 20:51:40 »
Forget everything I said before …………mainly berceuse I can't remember it either.

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #23 on: 31/03/2006 23:44:52 »
Thanks Jim,

Glad I don't take Ambien...Don't fancy a spot of sleep driving !!!


Fortunately, I only take the sleepy tabs about once a week. It might
well be more if I had earlier starts to the day. As it is, I'm not
sleeping now till past 7am !..and even then it's in 20 minute
intervals. Still, I have been forwarded for yet another sleep
study..it will be my third.


I have tried Sonata Jim, I had a bad reaction . Such a shame, as I
gather it's fairly quick to act and leaves no hangover effect. I
remember the press releases about it, being a new womder sleeping
drug. (hmm...long term memory is working alright)


Haven't heard of Lunesta is it related to sonata ?....actually, I
haven't heard of Ambien before either...maybe it's not available
over here like Nitrazepam is not available in the US.


THANKS AGAIN....it's great to get your perspective and I also signed
up to the NY Times too (It was the only way to view your links)


Men are the same as women, just inside out !
 

Offline JimBob

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #24 on: 01/04/2006 01:18:37 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep

... I also signed
up to the NY Times too (It was the only way to view your links)




WHAT? I found the 2 Times articles by Google-ing the subjects, reteriving links. I will post no more references to the NY Times. The London Times is readily available on-line. Money grubbering New Yorkers. Sorry 'bout that, Neil

The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
 

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Re: Memory Loss...it freaks me out !!
« Reply #24 on: 01/04/2006 01:18:37 »

 

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