# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.  (Read 11044 times)

#### imatfaal

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #25 on: 04/03/2011 14:41:43 »
McQ -no you haven't answer the thermodynamic question (because it cannot be dodged) - the fact that you quote another very simple experiment that relies on heating and cooling to provide a one off pressure differential is indicative that you still haven't grasped the problem.

and b - you still haven't given a reason why the water would flow and increase the vacuum (or maintain it under the presence of flow).  What force is causing the water to move, and what force is your vacuum system supposedly counteracting?  It's the same force and it won't work.

#### McQueen

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #26 on: 04/03/2011 15:28:02 »
Matt,
Why do I get the impression that you are just stating and restating your preconceived thoughts on the subject without even  bothering to read what I have written. If that is really the case. Then fine keep stating and restating what you have already said.

#### Geezer

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #27 on: 04/03/2011 18:37:18 »
McQueen,

You could quite easily produce a small model to demonstrtate that your idea works. It will only require some old plastic bottles and some plastic tubing.

#### McQueen

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #28 on: 05/03/2011 12:46:53 »
Geezer,
The reason that I view this as pedantry and not scientific precision are statements like " you still haven't grasped the problem..."
OK, if Tank C is divided into 20 smaller and separate but interconnected tanks as I had suggested, WILL it result in a total pressure (atmospheric and weight of water ) of only 2600 pounds ( dimensions of 1ft x 1 ft x10ft.)at any point in the network of pipes connecting these tanks together. IF so, why should not water flow from Tank B where the weight is in excess of 24,000 lbs as against a combined weight of the 20 tanks in Tank C of 2600 lbs. IF the water does not flow from Tank B in spite of the preponderance of weight(if the water alone in  Tank B weighs 24,000lbs, not counting atmospheric pressure),does it have anything to do with thermodynamics. Further, will both of you depend on the old wives tale that " nature abhors a vacuum" to press home your argument that as water flows from Tank B into Tank C air will flow in a counter direction to displace the vacuum in Tank B. COME ON !!!!!! These are the questions I need answers to, not snotty nosed statements that I don't have a grasp of things ..... !!!

#### Geezer

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #29 on: 05/03/2011 18:15:41 »
McQeen,

I think you would be better to spend your time constructing a working model than trying to browbeat people into believeing in something that obviously violates the laws of thermodynamics.

#### McQueen

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #30 on: 05/03/2011 20:43:19 »
Geezer,
I will give the building of a model serious thought. For the moment though, I would appreciate some answers to the questions in my last post.

#### Geezer

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #31 on: 05/03/2011 21:34:38 »
McQueen,

I'm sorry, but your explanation is still far from clear, and I'm not inclined to spend a lot of time trying to work out why it won't work when all the theory from the last several hundred years says it can't.

It seems to me that you are assuming you can get more work done by a mass of water that is flowing downhill than the work that was put into elevating the water in the first place. Bottom line is, you can't. Even if there were no losses in the system, you could only get back what you put in, so it would be a waste of time. In practice, any real system has losses (due to friction) so you are doomed to get back less than you put it, so it's worse than a waste of time.

If you want people to take you seriously, I think you have two options;

The most effective method would be to build a working model. It does not need to be very fancy. It just needs to demonstrate that the water will circulate automatically.

The alternative would be prove mathematically that you can obtain energy from a system that has no energy input.

#### McQueen

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #32 on: 16/03/2011 11:09:34 »
Geezer,
Still, in spite of all that you say and your quite right skepticism isn't it interesting that in the  link  given below, ALL of the water in the lower beaker goes into the upended flask containing a vacuum. http://www.education.com/science-fair/article/air-pressure-fountain/

#### Geezer

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #33 on: 16/03/2011 16:16:19 »
It's not surprising at all. Air pressure is simply forcing water into the flask to eliminate the partial vacuum.

What is much more interesting is that once the pressure equalizes, the water stops flowing.

#### imatfaal

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##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #34 on: 16/03/2011 17:15:50 »
McQ - how's the working model going? Cos that's gonna be the only thing that will convince you that you cannot use atmospheric pressure in this way.  You need to think about where energy for your system will come from - or alternatively you can try working out the forces involved, you have water going up: where is the force for this coming from?  Bear in mind Geezer's last comment above - your school science experiment on video only work once; for it to continue you need energy input.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Will this work: Micro hydel generation for the home.
« Reply #34 on: 16/03/2011 17:15:50 »