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Offline paradigm

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« on: 08/03/2011 12:22:56 »
Although gravity is clearly related to the mass or matter of a body, what is the mechanism which causes bodies to attract?


 

Offline Bill S

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #1 on: 08/03/2011 15:36:06 »
I must offer my usual disclaimer – I am not a scientist, so I don’t really know. 

There seem to be two ways of looking at gravity.  G R says it is not a force, it is a distortion of spacetime.  Q T says it is a force, mediated by a theoretical particle, the graviton.  Yer pays yer money an’ yer takes yer choice.

  Then there are questions like: If it’s a force, what is its origin, and why does it seem to be inexhaustible?  The following is a product of  some of my thoughts on the subject.

  Given a situation in which an enormous mass, such as the total mass of the Universe, is compressed into an unthinkably small “speck”, with a diameter no greater than the Planck distance, we might just be forgiven for referring to the resulting curvature of spacetime as “infinite”.  This, we are told, approximates to the state of the Universe at the instant of the Big Bang.  If this is the case, it follows that every particle of matter and energy in the Universe, at the start of its life – or of this cycle of its life – occupied the same point in spacetime.  The energy, whatever its source, that caused this infinitesimal, primordial speck to expand, transforming itself into billions of light years of spacetime would also have caused the curvature of spacetime to expand, and to “soften”, but, it would always remain curved, thus it would always tend to return to its original condition, like a rock falling back to Earth when it has been picked up and dropped.  This would mean that the energy which drives gravitational attraction is the potential energy imparted to every particle in the Universe by the Big Bang.  Thus, there is sufficient potential energy within the Universe to bring every particle back to an infinitesimally small speck. In this scenario every particle in the Universe contains enough potential energy to bring it back into contact with every other particle.

Just a thought.
 

Offline simplified

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #2 on: 08/03/2011 19:09:12 »
Although gravity is clearly related to the mass or matter of a body, what is the mechanism which causes bodies to attract?
Mass splits up grains of an ether and throws away them. Shared grains slip through other mass and do not touch it. The return stream of large grains of an ether touches mass and pushes it to the big mass. Shared grain of an ether gradually incorporates in the whole. [:I]
« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 19:18:24 by simplified »
 

Offline Heikki Rinnemaa

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #3 on: 08/03/2011 19:41:53 »
Hei. :)


My thought is that mechanism of gravity is only matter-density-balance system.

Without matter-existing if object is in the pure emptyness then object dont has any motion-energy to any direction.

When object is in the matter-existing then object (object which dont have engine) like air-balloon or moon example goin that balance-point where it's density and matter round of it is same density-level.





 

Offline paradigm

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #4 on: 08/03/2011 21:18:33 »
I see gravity, like all attraction, as being caused by the absorption of emission. This is presented in the essay "Beyond the Abstractionist Paradigm of Physics" which is located at: link removed
« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 22:38:30 by JP »
 

Offline JP

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #5 on: 08/03/2011 22:40:40 »
Hi paradigm,

I've removed your link as it's a violation of the acceptable use policy of the site to post links to your external websites to promote a theory.  If you are interested in discussing non-mainstream science theories, there is a sub-forum on new theories, located here: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?board=18.0

But again, please keep your posts as questions or discussion, rather than links to off-site essays.

Thanks,

JP (moderator)

 

Offline Bill S

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #6 on: 09/03/2011 22:15:42 »
Then there is Mark McCutcheon!!!  He believes there is no gravity.  He believes that all the matter in the Universe is expanding.  If we drop something, what we perceive is not that object falling to the ground, it is the ground coming up to meet the object.
 

Offline Heikki Rinnemaa

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #7 on: 17/04/2011 17:24:05 »


My thought, gravity is simple thing,,matter-density.
 

Offline Bill S

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #8 on: 17/04/2011 19:06:52 »


It's all about how much you have had to eat, and whether you need to sleep some off before its safe to jump off the table.
 

Offline Phractality

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #9 on: 18/04/2011 01:34:21 »
The warp of space-time is a mathematical description of the effect of gravity, claiming that it is the cause is like saying that curvy lines on a topographic map are the cause of mountains. Space-time is curved because gravity bends the path of light in Euclidean space, and Minkowski redefined "straight line" as the path of light.

The gravitons of QT merely quantifications of the effect of gravity. No one has every observed quantification of gravity.

I believe gravity, and all the other forces of nature, result from exchange of momentum between regular energy and dark energy. I'd explain more deaply, but then I'd be accused of "evangelizing".
 

Offline Geezer

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #10 on: 18/04/2011 07:25:54 »
I think it's fair to say that the precise mechanism that causes bodies to attract each other remains a matter of some conjecture.

(In other words, we really don't know at the moment  ;D)
 

Offline Heikki Rinnemaa

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #11 on: 21/04/2011 18:16:16 »
Space-time is curved because gravity bends the path of light in Euclidean space, and Minkowski redefined "straight line" as the path of light.

Perhaps;

Space-matter is curved because it's density is not same all point of space,, near planets density is higher,,and therefore,,,
 

Offline MikeS

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #12 on: 22/04/2011 18:01:05 »
I think Bill S got the closest.

Consider the universe big bang as a big explosion.  It can't expand more than the energy that went in to it.  Ultimately gravity will reverse that.

Energy, mass, time, gravity acceleration and entropy are all related. I believe that gravity is the deformation of space time by mass:-
1) in trying to reach the lowest energy level
2) in trying to reach the highest entropy level
3) in trying to reduce the universe to its minimum size
4) in trying to reduce the rate of flow of time to a minimum
Each of the above are equivalent and are saying the same thing but in different ways.

Mike
 

Offline yor_on

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What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #13 on: 22/04/2011 19:18:38 »


It's all about how much you have had to eat, and whether you need to sleep some off before its safe to jump off the table.

A truly sublime truth Bill, that one made my day :)
 

Offline jccc

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #14 on: 03/06/2014 01:08:16 »
Let's pretend there is no gravity. The Earth carries E numbers of proton and E numbers of electron. The moon carries M numbers of proton and electron. The distance is r.

We have 4 forces at work.

1. all positive charges in mass 1 attract all negative charges in mass 2. F1=k x EM/r^2

2. all positive charges in mass 2 attract all negative charges in mass 1. F2=K x EM/r^2

3. all positive charges in mass 1 repell all postive charges in mass 2.     F3=K x -EM/r^2

4. all negative charges in mass 1 repell all negative charges in mass 2.  F4=K x -EM/r^2

Because the geometry shape of the body, the r is changed in some way, end up the foure net forces an attraction force, which falls off at 1/r^2 as gravity.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #15 on: 03/06/2014 07:44:57 »
Not according to your arithmetic, which shows zero net force for any value of r.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #16 on: 03/06/2014 14:15:55 »
Not according to your arithmetic, which shows zero net force for any value of r.

Right, I don't know how to put R Earth and R moon to the equation, I wish I could. But you should get the point.

There are only four forces that we kind of  know of. Why is electrostatic force and gravity falls off same as 1/r^2? We know that M1=Charge1, M2=charge2.

It seems fit perfectly to me, that gravity is the net electrostatic forces between matters. If you can make it an equation, you might get N prize.

« Last Edit: 03/06/2014 15:18:58 by jccc »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #17 on: 03/06/2014 20:18:23 »
All other fields have force carrying particles so there is no reason to think that gravitation is any different. Field particle dispersion over distance via the inverse square law is the reason for the drop in overall field strength. However the force carrying particles still have to be able to keep planets in orbit. This is the puzzle. If you consider the orbits of the various comets and how the sun can still exert a pull strong enough to preserve their orbits is a testimony to the strength exerted by the individual particles when dispersed so sparsely.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #18 on: 04/06/2014 01:21:15 »
I wonder if to calculate the forces is even possible. Seems too complicated to me. What kind of math tool able to solve it?

Each charge in mass 1 acts with every charge in mass 2 at various distance, we have as many as 4 x E x M forces to deal with.

But all in all, if the calculation can be done and proof that the net electrostatic force between two bodies always end up attraction and follows f=m1m2/r^2=kq1q2/r^2, the mystery of gravity will be cleared.

I wish Newton is still alive!
« Last Edit: 04/06/2014 01:34:43 by jccc »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #19 on: 05/06/2014 06:46:25 »
I wonder if to calculate the forces is even possible. Seems too complicated to me. What kind of math tool able to solve it?

Each charge in mass 1 acts with every charge in mass 2 at various distance, we have as many as 4 x E x M forces to deal with.

But all in all, if the calculation can be done and proof that the net electrostatic force between two bodies always end up attraction and follows f=m1m2/r^2=kq1q2/r^2, the mystery of gravity will be cleared.

I wish Newton is still alive!

Firstly, gravity is not electrostatic, secondly, there are equations in general relativity formulated by Einstein. Whilst these equations do describe observations it is yet to be determined if Einstein was completely correct in all his assumptions.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #20 on: 06/06/2014 00:08:11 »

Firstly, gravity is not electrostatic, secondly, there are equations in general relativity formulated by Einstein. Whilst these equations do describe observations it is yet to be determined if Einstein was completely correct in all his assumptions.
[/quote]
Your two comments seems conflict.

Mass 1 and 2 both carries same number of positive and negative charges, they are electrically nurture, We think the net attraction force and pushing force is zero,

But in reality, every charge in mass 1 acts with every charge in mass 2 at different distance, the net force might not be zero. I suggest that the net force will be always attraction and follows f===>m1m2/r^2===>charge1change2/r^.

Seems logically sound.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #21 on: 06/06/2014 01:26:09 »
Let me try to explain. my English is poor.

If we use thin line to hang two magnets in the air, give a distance, they will attract to each other. The N pole in M1 pushes N pole in M2 but attracts S pole with same strength, the net force should be zero in theory. But in reality, the poles will induce each other to move position to create attraction force.

In matter, let's say two atoms at r distance, the charges in each atom is equal, but in reality/space, induce will adjust distance/position between charges to create unbalanced force which is attraction.

Induce might not be the right word. What I mean is, same charges pushes each other, so the two magnets will adjust their position as same poles has largest distance, different poles has smallest distance. Therefore, net force is attraction.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #22 on: 06/06/2014 04:25:20 »
Although gravity is clearly related to the mass or matter of a body, what is the mechanism which causes bodies to attract?
Nobody knows the answer to that question yet. All we know is that matter creates a gravitational field and when matter is in that field it acclerates. Why it happens is something that nobody knows. Even Einstein's General Theory of Relativity doesn't describe such a mechanism. I.e.

Gravitation and the Principle of Relativity by A.S. Eddington, Nature, March 14, 1918, page 36
Quote
The purpose of Einstein’s new theory has often been misunderstood, and it has been criticized as an attempt to explain gravitation. The theory does not offer any explanation of gravitation; that lies outside its scope, and it does not even hint at a possible mechanism. It is true that we have introduced a definite hypothesis as to the relation between gravitation and a distortion of space; but if that explains anything, it explains not gravitation, but space, i.e. the scaffolding constructed for our measures.

Perhaps if someone creates a quantum theory of gravity it will contain the description of such a mechanism.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #23 on: 06/06/2014 04:45:29 »
Quote from: Bill S
There seem to be two ways of looking at gravity.  G R says it is not a force, it is a distortion of spacetime. 
Hi Bill. It’s nice to see your posts again. I haven’t been here for some time.

GR doesn’t say that GR is not a force. It says that the gravitational force is an inertial force. For those who are unfamiliar with that term please see
http://home.comcast.net/~peter.m.brown/gr/inertial_force.htm

Some physicists think that inertial forces aren’t “real” and it’s for that reason some people to think that there’s no force in GR. It’s still incorrect to think of gravity as a distortion in spacetime. It’s a curvature in spacetime, not a distortion. Distortion means something quite different. The surface of a sphere is curved. However if you were to tell someone that the surface of a basketball is distorted they’d have no idea what you’re talking about. The term “distorted” doesn’t really mean that anyway. “distorted” doesn’t refer to a state of something. It refers to a change from something. I.e. to say that a surface is distorted is to mean that it was altered from its original shape. Therefor a flat surface could actually be a distored spherical surface. Perhaps you’re thinking that flat spacetime is “natural” and that anything different from flat spacetime is unnatural thus a distortion?

In anycase its quite possible for the gravitational force to be non-zero in a non-curved spacetime such as a uniform gravitational field.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #24 on: 06/06/2014 04:47:30 »
Although gravity is clearly related to the mass or matter of a body, what is the mechanism which causes bodies to attract?
Mass splits up grains of an ether and throws away them. Shared grains slip through other mass and do not touch it. The return stream of large grains of an ether touches mass and pushes it to the big mass. Shared grain of an ether gradually incorporates in the whole. [:I]
Is this a joke or something?
 

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Re: What is the mechanism of gravity?
« Reply #24 on: 06/06/2014 04:47:30 »

 

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