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Offline Eric A. Taylor

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Does the future already exist?
« on: 17/03/2011 11:02:19 »
The book I'm reading right now has made the claim that the future already exists. The idea is that all of space-time (past, present and future) exists as a lump. The example given was a loaf of bread. Each location and each event are points within the loaf of bread. The events that happen at the same time according to two different observers depends on how they are moving relative to one another. This was given as an explanation of Relativity. So if one observer is moving near the speed of light he or she will say that two events happened quite a long time apart when two stationary observers will say they happened at the same time. This would mean that someone is seeing what another would call the future.

This bothered me because it seemed to suggest that the future is already set in stone precluding free will. The future is just as unchangeable as the past. No matter how hard I try I'll never prevent the launch of Challenger on 28 January 1986.

There is another theory I've never been comfortable with that my idea settles. The theory states that anytime something happens that has a chance of turning out in more than one way a new universe is created where all of the possibilities happen. I've never liked the idea of new universes popping into being every time someone decided between wearing the blue or the green shirt today.

But what if space-time was like a maze. One which you can not see what's ahead and you can only go one way. Reaching a dead end in the maze means your own end. When you decide to turn left or right in a maze you are not creating more maze, it's already there but you will never see that part of the maze you didn't take.

So in November 2012 I'll be faced with an intersection of maze where I can vote for Obama or whoever the Republican is. Down one corridor is a reality where Obama wins a second term and the other where the Republican wins. Both corridors exist but we'll only see the results of one.


 

Offline imatfaal

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #1 on: 17/03/2011 15:52:41 »
Eric  

The relativity question must be approached by understanding frames of reference - if you are to influence an event you must be in a frame that can communicate at sub-luminal speed with that frame.  No frame can communicate with 1986 - even though other positions/frames may still be observing 1986.  You can only alter events that take place in your future, with a lower limit that is calculated by how long it will take light to travel from your frame to that of the object.   Whilst relative velocities will alter relative passage of time, it remains true that an action can only affect object within its future light cone; alternatively an object can only be affected by events in its past light cone

With regard to the multiple histories - that seems to be the sort of idea that whilst interesting is, when truth be told, fairly unhelpful; if something can never be observed, understood and predicted then what is the point?  So great, everything is predestined because every possible combination of events happens; in the end who cares?
 

Offline Dominus

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #2 on: 19/03/2011 14:39:44 »
The book I'm reading right now has made the claim that the future already exists.
Eric, if I may say some, as far as Relativity goes, there is no present, whilst past and future exist under the same “celestial vault” and are both physically treated on the same footing. I am here referring to the four-dimensional continuum advocated by Minkowski and fully endorsed by Einstein. Either, take it or leave it.
As for the rest, I think some scientists are heavily speculating perhaps more than some chaps like myself. The only difference being, they have a wider audience.
 

Offline Heikki Rinnemaa

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #3 on: 19/03/2011 15:38:06 »
Hi Eric.

My thought of future or past.

i think that we,,i mean human kind,,cannot solve problem how universe or even our earth has born,,or what is the age now earth,,,or what happend example 1 000 000 000 years to future.

My point is that we,, human scientist,,has research only few hundreds years,,and of cource,,we can research example 100 000 or 1 000 000 year what was happend,,but this is,,how i say,,something we can researh,,but mainly we use mathematical formulaes,,and all formulaes has some todays information,,now-thought,,and we dont known exactly is this now-formula accurace past of future,,hmm,,i made image,,to clear what i want to say.


 

Offline Eric A. Taylor

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #4 on: 23/03/2011 21:49:21 »
The book I'm reading right now has made the claim that the future already exists.
Eric, if I may say some, as far as Relativity goes, there is no present, whilst past and future exist under the same “celestial vault” and are both physically treated on the same footing. I am here referring to the four-dimensional continuum advocated by Minkowski and fully endorsed by Einstein. Either, take it or leave it.
As for the rest, I think some scientists are heavily speculating perhaps more than some chaps like myself. The only difference being, they have a wider audience.

This is what I'm saying. All of space-time, which includes all events that have happened, are happening, and will happen for all of time (regardless if that "time" is infinitely long) is this maze I imagine. Instead of having more than one universe there is only one. But that single universe has many different corridors in the same way that a big maze is just one maze with a lot of different paths.

There is not really more than one you in the maze, but the other possibilities that could have been realized had you made different decisions are still there.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #5 on: 26/03/2011 20:58:35 »
The book I'm reading right now has made the claim that the future already exists. The idea is that all of space-time (past, present and future) exists as a lump. The example given was a loaf of bread. Each location and each event are points within the loaf of bread. The events that happen at the same time according to two different observers depends on how they are moving relative to one another. This was given as an explanation of Relativity. So if one observer is moving near the speed of light he or she will say that two events happened quite a long time apart when two stationary observers will say they happened at the same time. This would mean that someone is seeing what another would call the future.

This bothered me because it seemed to suggest that the future is already set in stone precluding free will. The future is just as unchangeable as the past. No matter how hard I try I'll never prevent the launch of Challenger on 28 January 1986.

There is another theory I've never been comfortable with that my idea settles. The theory states that anytime something happens that has a chance of turning out in more than one way a new universe is created where all of the possibilities happen. I've never liked the idea of new universes popping into being every time someone decided between wearing the blue or the green shirt today.

But what if space-time was like a maze. One which you can not see what's ahead and you can only go one way. Reaching a dead end in the maze means your own end. When you decide to turn left or right in a maze you are not creating more maze, it's already there but you will never see that part of the maze you didn't take.

So in November 2012 I'll be faced with an intersection of maze where I can vote for Obama or whoever the Republican is. Down one corridor is a reality where Obama wins a second term and the other where the Republican wins. Both corridors exist but we'll only see the results of one.

I think you mean is there fate, are things set or deterimined(although detreminism has a few sides to it).

To a degree I would say yes. Speaking from a religious persepective, God gave man free will, which lead to the fall, and ultimately will express itself on the day of judgement, when people are to be assesed acording to their actions/lives, faith and apreciation.

It is said that God can see the future as easily as the past, therefore God knows what is to happen on the day of judgement, that however is God, no one else knows. Leaving us free still to adjust ourselves as we choose to, with in that reality certain things are decided by god to happen, other things are not nessecerily.

I way I like to see is like a road, you can drive on the left or the right yet certain things you will happen upon, which ever side you drive on. But that's a religious perspective and just one of many others.

to quote Jesus "For all your worrying can you add but a day to your life" Kinda like when the petrol runs out that's it, but I think how you drive could effect the condition of your car.

Peace.
« Last Edit: 26/03/2011 22:43:09 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #6 on: 27/03/2011 06:56:20 »
If your god gave man free will, and can also see the future, then he didn't give man free will. Think about it.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #7 on: 27/03/2011 23:55:43 »
If your god gave man free will, and can also see the future, then he didn't give man free will. Think about it.

Seeing what a person will do, with their free will does not deny that free wil, think about it.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #8 on: 28/03/2011 01:12:37 »
With free will your actions would be unpredictable, therefore god would not be able to see your future. If he knows what you will do then how is it free will?
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #9 on: 28/03/2011 02:47:53 »
With free will your actions would be unpredictable, therefore god would not be able to see your future. If he knows what you will do then how is it free will?

To quote the bible "God knows all the knowledge there is"

Oscar Wilde "The fool to the Gods and fool to man are very different... for the gods the fool is the man that does not know himself"

If you know someone you will know how they will act, it's still their free choice to do so.

If you could watch all time, seeing how people use their freedom does not take that freedom away.

Besides if you can see all time, you do not need to predict anything, you can just look.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #10 on: 28/03/2011 07:24:27 »
If you know someone you will know how they will act, it's still their free choice to do so.

If god is all knowing, then it already knows when it creates you a certain way exactly how you will be and think, and therefore exactly what you will do with your "free will" all the way until you die, since it sees all of time. So you have no choice in the matter, it's god that makes every decision you will ever make when it creates you. Therefore, if god knows the future then you do not have free will.
« Last Edit: 28/03/2011 07:26:37 by Madidus_Scientia »
 

Offline JMLCarter

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« Reply #11 on: 28/03/2011 22:46:22 »
Nice logic, while we are in that vein has the following been considered...

In order for an entity to be actually omniscient it would need to have knowledge of all the measurable/variable properties of the universe.
For such knowledge to be 100% accurate and comprehensive, the entity would necessarily contain as a minimum a complete model of the universe, including itself. That would mean infinite regression, which it is impossible to make real (there's always another step).
Which suggests that no entity can be omniscient, only, for want of a better term, "vastly knowledgeable".
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #12 on: 29/03/2011 00:49:57 »
I agree.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #13 on: 29/03/2011 07:43:48 »
If you know someone you will know how they will act, it's still their free choice to do so.

If god is all knowing, then it already knows when it creates you a certain way exactly how you will be and think,

The bible will disagree, for while god made us and knows us, an eliment of choice is still present.


 and therefore exactly what you will do with your "free will" all the way until you die, since it sees all of time. So you have no choice in the matter, it's god that makes every decision you will ever make when it creates you.

No sorry cannot agree, your basically saying we are all god.



Therefore, if god knows the future then you do not have free will.

Again God seeing the future does not prohibit free choice, seeing the future means that on any given path things will happen, yet God effects the destiny of man, acts within it, changes courses. Seeing a given future does not mean the whole thing is set, God just watches.

As a greater point if there is a God reality can be however that God decides, having a god does not preclude free will at all.

Going to think up an anaology using movies......
« Last Edit: 29/03/2011 08:06:01 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #14 on: 29/03/2011 08:01:34 »
The bible will disagree, for while god made us and knows us, an eliment of choice is still present.

What some old book says doesn't concern me. If "he" doesn't know what we will choose then he isn't all knowing. If he does know,... well see my earlier posts.

Quote
No sorry cannot agree, your basically saying we are all god.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

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Again God seeing the future does not prohibit free choice

Then how can he know the future without knowing what choices you will make?
 

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #15 on: 29/03/2011 13:39:26 »
Shrunk
The bible will disagree, for while god made us and knows us, an eliment of choice is still present.

What some old book says doesn't concern me. If "he" doesn't know what we will choose then he isn't all knowing. If he does know,... well see my earlier posts.

Knowing what you will do, does not effect the free choice to do so. There is only an effect upon a free choice if God actually intervined, and either encouraged or prevented an action, why would God act at all within the creation is if was all fixed?




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No sorry cannot agree, your basically saying we are all god.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

Because God would be making every choice, we would all be just acting as an extencion of gods thoughts.




Quote
Again God seeing the future does not prohibit free choice

Then how can he know the future without knowing what choices you will make?

Doesn't matter you are still free to choose them.

As I said before God can make reality as God chooses, meaning that seeing the future and giving man free will are still possible, For God. 
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #16 on: 30/03/2011 07:18:48 »
Knowing what you will do, does not effect the free choice to do so.


I have explained a few times why this is not logical but you just seem to keep asserting otherwise without explaining how my logic is wrong.

Quote
why would God act at all within the creation is if was all fixed?

Well as far as I can see, he doesn't. Anyway, if he knows the future he already knows how he's going to interact.

Quote
Because God would be making every choice, we would all be just acting as an extencion of gods thoughts.

As a consequence of gods thoughts, yes.

Quote
Doesn't matter you are still free to choose them.

Back to square 1 again. Again, if god is all knowing and sees the future, then before you are even born he knows exactly what choices you will make throughout your whole life. There is no way you can do something outside of what god expects you to do, otherwise he is not all knowing. So you have no choice in the matter, you will do exactly as god expects throughout your whole life, so if god is all knowing you have no free will.

If you are still not convinced, instead of just asserting otherwise, explain how my logic is wrong. Otherwise we're just going in circles.

You haven't addressed JMLCarter's point either.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2011 07:26:23 by Madidus_Scientia »
 

Offline Eric A. Taylor

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #17 on: 30/03/2011 08:33:27 »
The book I'm reading right now has made the claim that the future already exists. The idea is that all of space-time (past, present and future) exists as a lump. The example given was a loaf of bread. Each location and each event are points within the loaf of bread. The events that happen at the same time according to two different observers depends on how they are moving relative to one another. This was given as an explanation of Relativity. So if one observer is moving near the speed of light he or she will say that two events happened quite a long time apart when two stationary observers will say they happened at the same time. This would mean that someone is seeing what another would call the future.

This bothered me because it seemed to suggest that the future is already set in stone precluding free will. The future is just as unchangeable as the past. No matter how hard I try I'll never prevent the launch of Challenger on 28 January 1986.

There is another theory I've never been comfortable with that my idea settles. The theory states that anytime something happens that has a chance of turning out in more than one way a new universe is created where all of the possibilities happen. I've never liked the idea of new universes popping into being every time someone decided between wearing the blue or the green shirt today.

But what if space-time was like a maze. One which you can not see what's ahead and you can only go one way. Reaching a dead end in the maze means your own end. When you decide to turn left or right in a maze you are not creating more maze, it's already there but you will never see that part of the maze you didn't take.

So in November 2012 I'll be faced with an intersection of maze where I can vote for Obama or whoever the Republican is. Down one corridor is a reality where Obama wins a second term and the other where the Republican wins. Both corridors exist but we'll only see the results of one.

I think you mean is there fate, are things set or deterimined(although detreminism has a few sides to it).

To a degree I would say yes. Speaking from a religious persepective, God gave man free will, which lead to the fall, and ultimately will express itself on the day of judgement, when people are to be assesed acording to their actions/lives, faith and apreciation.

It is said that God can see the future as easily as the past, therefore God knows what is to happen on the day of judgement, that however is God, no one else knows. Leaving us free still to adjust ourselves as we choose to, with in that reality certain things are decided by god to happen, other things are not nessecerily.

I way I like to see is like a road, you can drive on the left or the right yet certain things you will happen upon, which ever side you drive on. But that's a religious perspective and just one of many others.

to quote Jesus "For all your worrying can you add but a day to your life" Kinda like when the petrol runs out that's it, but I think how you drive could effect the condition of your car.

Peace.

I'm not saying there is fate at all. In my imagination time does not flow like a river, rather WE move through time. Imagine the maze has pictures on the wall that represent each instant. If I were to visit the part of the maze that corresponds to "England, early 1970's"  I might see Chris Smith being born. (I don't know what year he was born)I walk down the hall a bit and I can see him being chewed out for setting the cat on fire (again I have no idea if he ever really did this, but I'm sure he got into trouble for at least one thing growing up) A little farther down, say around 1990 I might find an intersection that represents Chris' decision to go to medical school. Down one path we'd see Chris earn an MD, start the Naked Scientists talking for years on the radio and giving lectures on virology. Other paths may lead us to see Chris flunk out of school, become a drug addict, get busted and spending years housed by the State. Both of these realities are just as real as the one Chris remembers, both are part of THIS universe, but Chris only remembers being a successful and talented radio personality because he CHOSE not to become addicted to drugs.

We are still free to choose in the same way that a person in a maze is free to choose their own path. Their is no "fate" because all possibilities exist already, until the end of time.

Just as we can see the past, so we can visit the "future" Perhaps down one path, in the year 2065 we'll find Chris, a very old man, explaining to his great-grand kids some scientific enigma, down another we'll see where Chris' intersects with some nutter who was fed up with his awful puns and knocked him off. Both futures are real, but which one he'll experience depends on not only his own choices, but those of all the nutters as well.
 

Offline Geezer

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #18 on: 30/03/2011 08:51:09 »
Just as we can see the past, so we can visit the "future" Perhaps down one path, in the year 2065 we'll find Chris, a very old man, explaining to his great-grand kids some scientific enigma, down another we'll see where Chris' intersects with some nutter who was fed up with his awful puns and knocked him off. Both futures are real, but which one he'll experience depends on not only his own choices, but those of all the nutters as well.

But that means all possible futures exist, which is completely different from saying "the future exists".
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #19 on: 30/03/2011 08:51:51 »
If every possible future already exists but it just depends which way we go, isn't that just another way of saying there is no future?
 

Offline Geezer

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #20 on: 30/03/2011 09:22:51 »
If every possible future already exists but it just depends which way we go, isn't that just another way of saying there is no future?

Pretty much!
 

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #21 on: 30/03/2011 10:22:32 »
Shrunk
If every possible future already exists but it just depends which way we go, isn't that just another way of saying there is no future?

Which asks what is it that causes the "Way we go", if Choice then, Looking at it, there are all the possible outcomes and a choice deciding a path of one of them, from the many possibles, see the future as a maze, God sees the maze, and God being able to see that maze, doesnt take that free choice to turn left, or right, or up, or down away.

God playing a role in that maze, could direct certain movements, and also not at other moments, many possibles, fate, free choice all existing together, in a maze of future events that could and also could not come.
God being aware of all the possible choices, a person in the maze could make, doesn't take away their free will to make a choice at a given moment.

To any given outcome there could be many variable possiblities to achieve the same end, choice could be seen as part of that variable process. What does it matter if going left or going right a person ends up in the same place eventually? The end fixed, yet with freedom.

Marx said "Men make there own history but never in circumstances of their own choosing"

The reality created by God, you exist that circumstance, a free choice allows independence and movement= God's not a control freak.

 
 

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Does the future already exist?
« Reply #22 on: 30/03/2011 10:41:03 »
Shrunk
Quote
why would God act at all within the creation is if was all fixed?

Well as far as I can see, he doesn't. Anyway, if he knows the future he already knows how he's going to interact.

As far as you can see, yet according to scripture he does. The latter is an assumption, does it not depend on the, sort outcome?


 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #23 on: 02/04/2011 08:41:28 »
Wiybit you just keep repeating what I've already shown to be illogical, you're just trolling now. So I'm not going to bother repeating what I've been trying to get through to you, you need only read my previous posts again, if you ever read them properly at all.

As far as you can see, yet according to scripture he does.

So what?
 

Offline Eric A. Taylor

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« Reply #24 on: 02/04/2011 18:34:49 »
If every possible future already exists but it just depends which way we go, isn't that just another way of saying there is no future?

In this model past present and future need to be thought of a little differently. Instead of thinking of future events as nonexistent (say the President of the United States in 2112, who has not yet been born) you need to imagine time spatially. All events in time exists in space-time, just as both Indianapolis, In and Portland, Or both exists in different places. The flow of time we feel is US moving through time, not time passing us by.

This is why time dilation happens (google "twins paradox") When two objects (our twins) are not moving, relative to each other, both will agree as to how much time has passed. They are both moving though time at the same speed. Now one twin decides to go on a short trip at 90% C. That twin trades some of his time velocity for space velocity to move away from his twin. Now they are NOT both moving through time at the same velocity (velocity here differs from "speed" in that speed is scalar and velocity is vector) It's hard to imagine moving through time at any speed, because our definition of "speed" uses time itself (distance over time) but that's what we are doing, moving through time at near the speed of light.
 

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