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Author Topic: Would my GPS device work on the moon?  (Read 32896 times)

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #50 on: 02/04/2011 22:51:26 »
Shrunk
""Bored Chemist said no you didn't need a map and that GPS could tell you where you were any where in the universe. "
Oh no I didn't.

Oh yes you did!"

OK, for a start either show a quote where I said that or leave.

Quote
I said "have a complete map of the moon."
Nope, you can use a coordinate system based on earth anywhere, including the moon."

You said nope you do not need a map

Quote
A coordinate system based on earth (the one I had in mind was latitude, longitude and altitude) which can be used to pinpoint any place in the universe.

Even though we do not actually know how big the universe is or what it really looks like!



"Rather than just making a stament couldnt you actually provide some evidence?"
Let me get this straight.
Do you need evidence that about half the satellites would be visible, or you need evidence that you cannot produce a perfectly defined beam with a finite aperture?
Both are clear enough to me.

"GPS Global position system, and there are a few, My hence think statement was based upon, the notion that a mobile phone which does communicate with the satlites, your conversation passes through then as you chat, can also generate a position not using the acutal GPS satalite systems no red herrings at all, or none intended"

I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand that. Could you try reading through it then sorting it out please?
 I will just point out that I don't normally experience satellite delays on my mobile phone.



Oh really you never get signal problems?
« Last Edit: 02/04/2011 22:55:25 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #51 on: 03/04/2011 06:26:18 »
The "Dark Side of the Moon" has nothing to do with the sun or illumination.
Rather, the moon is tidally locked with the earth.  One side of the moon always faces the earth.  One side (the dark side) always faces away from the earth.  Thus, if you were on the side of the moon facing away from Earth...  the GPS satellites would be useless.

Doesn't the term "dark side of the moon" in itself imply it is to do with illumination? Unless it is meant that that side is evil. "Far side of the moon" I would accept, but I disagree that the dark side of the moon is the side facing away from earth.

The dark side of the moon is the side facing away from the sun. If you've ever seen a half-moon you'll know that the dark side of the moon is still visible from earth.
 

Offline Geezer

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #52 on: 03/04/2011 06:35:34 »
The "Dark Side of the Moon" has nothing to do with the sun or illumination.
Rather, the moon is tidally locked with the earth.  One side of the moon always faces the earth.  One side (the dark side) always faces away from the earth.  Thus, if you were on the side of the moon facing away from Earth...  the GPS satellites would be useless.

Doesn't the term "dark side of the moon" in itself imply it is to do with illumination? Unless it is meant that that side is evil. "Far side of the moon" I would accept, but I disagree that the dark side of the moon is the side facing away from earth.

The dark side of the moon is the side facing away from the sun. If you've ever seen a half-moon you'll know that the dark side of the moon is still visible from earth.

I think you are quite correct. We only see one hemisphere of the Moon from Earth, but both hemispheres are illuminated by the Sun.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #53 on: 03/04/2011 06:36:33 »
""Bored Chemist said no you didn't need a map and that GPS could tell you where you were any where in the universe. "
Oh no I didn't.

Oh yes you did!"

OK, for a start either show a quote where I said that or leave.

Quote
I said "have a complete map of the moon."
Nope, you can use a coordinate system based on earth anywhere, including the moon."

You said nope you do not need a map

Where did he say that GPS could tell you where you were anywhere in the universe? I don't see it.

Quote
Quote
A coordinate system based on earth (the one I had in mind was latitude, longitude and altitude) which can be used to pinpoint any place in the universe.

Even though we do not actually know how big the universe is or what it really looks like!

That's irrelevant, the coordinates are still plottable.

Quote
Oh really you never get signal problems?

Are you also labouring under the delusion that a mobile phone transmits directly to the satellites?
 

Offline Geezer

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #54 on: 03/04/2011 06:45:07 »
Are you also labouring under the delusion that a mobile phone transmits directly to the satellites?

That's silly. Everyone knows mobile phones get their signals from black helicopters.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #55 on: 03/04/2011 07:45:19 »
Did someone say black helicopters?! Where?! where are they!? Where's my aluminium foil
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #56 on: 03/04/2011 10:20:24 »
""Bored Chemist said no you didn't need a map and that GPS could tell you where you were any where in the universe. "
Oh no I didn't.

Oh yes you did!"

OK, for a start either show a quote where I said that or leave.

Quote
I said "have a complete map of the moon."
Nope, you can use a coordinate system based on earth anywhere, including the moon."

You said nope you do not need a map

Where did he say that GPS could tell you where you were anywhere in the universe? I don't see it.

It was in the post I quoted from sec-2.1. As I said he was talking about sphere shapes he said no and that using Long- Latt and attitude from an earth based system you could plot anywhere in the universe. I think "Think" his point was that using an x Y Z axis you could plot your position, long and latt are for the sphere shape of the earth, we were discussing GPS at the time.



Quote
Quote
A coordinate system based on earth (the one I had in mind was latitude, longitude and altitude) which can be used to pinpoint any place in the universe.

Even though we do not actually know how big the universe is or what it really looks like!

That's irrelevant, the coordinates are still plottable.

Quote
Oh really you never get signal problems?

Are you also labouring under the delusion that a mobile phone transmits directly to the satellites?

Maybe I am.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #57 on: 03/04/2011 10:25:05 »
They do not. They transmit to the nearest tower, and from there the signal is forwarded elsewhere.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #58 on: 03/04/2011 10:49:35 »
They do not. They transmit to the nearest tower, and from there the signal is forwarded elsewhere.

Some phones can
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5593221_satellites-information-during-natural-disasters.html
 
Quote
A satellite phone is a portable phone that communicates using satellites in orbit as opposed to land cell towers like cell phones. Satellite phones send a signal to and receive a signal from the satellite in use.

Just saying

 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #59 on: 03/04/2011 10:57:19 »
We weren't talking about satellite phones.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #60 on: 03/04/2011 11:19:01 »
We weren't talking about satellite phones.

What you mean is you weren't. I knew some portable phones could or did talk directly to satalites, some might also have GPS options. Delusions aside, because there are so many options, it is kind of a nightmare and easy to cross-wires.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #61 on: 03/04/2011 13:44:15 »
Then why is it relevant whether BC has signal problems

Whether a phone has GPS capability or not has nothing to do with whether it can transmit or not
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #62 on: 03/04/2011 14:12:25 »
Then why is it relevant whether BC has signal problems

Whether a phone has GPS capability or not has nothing to do with whether it can transmit or not

So what's your point? Isnt it realtive to what phone he has, shall we ask him?

And what has any of this got to do with the being on the moon and recieving a GPS signal?

 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #63 on: 03/04/2011 14:18:48 »
Exactly.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #64 on: 03/04/2011 14:44:01 »
Exactly.


I will say Bored chemists are just the sort of people that buy satalite phones.

that aside where are we in this discussion? I'm still sure no signal from a GPS satalite would reach the moon at all.

I'm still for the specs tho on the 2f satalite, signal foot print. Any ideas of a good place to look?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #65 on: 03/04/2011 16:12:36 »
Wiybit,
Shocking as you may find this, if I had meant to use X,Y and Z coordinates I would have said so.
I didn't
I said that you could label any point in the universe by giving its latitude, longitude and altitude from earth.
Whether or not you could do that with GPS is another matter. Clearly there are some places you can't use GPS (like in a tunnel) but the system of coordinates is still valid.
You might want to look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_coordinates
It shows how to convert from Cartesian (X,Y,Z) to polar (R, θ,φ) coordinate systems.

The point was that you can use an earth based set of coordinates to navigate anywhere, including on the moon, so your idea that it would only work on earth is cobblers.

"I will say Bored chemists are just the sort of people that buy satalite phones"
Also cobblers. It's only about 4 years since I got a mobile phone at all.

However I said that my phone doesn't give satellite delays so you should have known that it's not a satellite phone. The problem is that you don't read what I post.

I still don't understand why you brought mobile phones into this thread. It's about the GPS system and GPS  receivers don't transmit a signal back to the satellite.
As far as I can tell you only mentioned this because you didn't understand the GPS system.

"I'm still for the specs tho on the 2f satalite, signal foot print. Any ideas of a good place to look?"
Anywhere you like. Because it won't help much.
The diagram will look something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FAA_WAAS_coverage_next_generation.jpg
It will differ in detail, but that's not the issue.
That pretty picture shows a contour  on the earth where the signal is over some specified strength. I don't know what the spec. is, but it doesn't matter because it's arbitrary.
I could still use a receiver just outside that area if I had a better antenna or if I was lucky with the local conditions.
On the other hand, even inside that "cone" I might not be able to get a usable signal.

So the area covered by the satellite depends on the antenna.
On the moon I can use as big a dish as I like, so it doesn't matter how poor the signal is.
(There's a way round the problem with pointing accuracy, but if I mention it, Wiybit will fail to understand it and probably say that I have said that all dogs like banana peel or something).

Now, back to the question of the maps.
Bits of Japan recently moved a few metres. The maps are now wrong.
GPS still works. It can still (even in a recently mobile bit of Japan) give you a latitude, longitude and altitude.
In fact, the reason they know how far and in which direction the tectonic plates moved is that they can monitor it with GPS.
Does anyone still think GPS needs a map?




 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #66 on: 03/04/2011 16:39:18 »
Wiybit,
Shocking as you may find this, if I had meant to use X,Y and Z coordinates I would have said so.
I didn't
I said that you could label any point in the universe by giving its latitude, longitude and altitude from earth.
Whether or not you could do that with GPS is another matter. Clearly there are some places you can't use GPS (like in a tunnel) but the system of coordinates is still valid.
You might want to look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_coordinates
It shows how to convert from Cartesian (X,Y,Z) to polar (R, θ,φ) coordinate systems.

The point was that you can use an earth based set of coordinates to navigate anywhere, including on the moon, so your idea that it would only work on earth is cobblers.

Well we were getting mixed up you were talking about navigation coordinates, as a system. I was talking about a GPS device.



"I will say Bored chemists are just the sort of people that buy satalite phones"
Also cobblers. It's only about 4 years since I got a mobile phone at all.

However I said that my phone doesn't give satellite delays so you should have known that it's not a satellite phone. The problem is that you don't read what I post.

I still don't understand why you brought mobile phones into this thread. It's about the GPS system and GPS  receivers don't transmit a signal back to the satellite.
As far as I can tell you only mentioned this because you didn't understand the GPS system.

"I'm still for the specs tho on the 2f satalite, signal foot print. Any ideas of a good place to look?"
Anywhere you like. Because it won't help much.
The diagram will look something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FAA_WAAS_coverage_next_generation.jpg

Yes I know about that site I referenced it eariler, the WAAS is the next generation for GPS, the coverage on the old system is smaller and that is the system we use at the moment.



It will differ in detail, but that's not the issue.
That pretty picture shows a contour  on the earth where the signal is over some specified strength. I don't know what the spec. is, but it doesn't matter because it's arbitrary.
I could still use a receiver just outside that area if I had a better antenna or if I was lucky with the local conditions.
On the other hand, even inside that "cone" I might not be able to get a usable signal.

So the area covered by the satellite depends on the antenna.

Sorry but the footprint has a huge impact, on the devices ability to function, and I debate how wide the satalite signal is, effects of the atmosphere and the solar winds.

I still do not believe any signal will get there, and no one has shown any evidence, to suggest otherwise.



On the moon I can use as big a dish as I like, so it doesn't matter how poor the signal is.

true but I still debate any signal getting there at all, again based on the diagrams put up by others if any signal did I think it would only come from arround 10% of the satlites, 2.4, you need three minimum, and four for best function, With the low frequency I cannot see it happening.

 

(There's a way round the problem with pointing accuracy, but if I mention it, Wiybit will fail to understand it and probably say that I have said that all dogs like banana peel or something).

No you can explain the poining accuracy, please do more input. and you did say dogs like banana peels.




Now, back to the question of the maps.
Bits of Japan recently moved a few metres. The maps are now wrong.
GPS still works. It can still (even in a recently mobile bit of Japan) give you a latitude, longitude and altitude.
In fact, the reason they know how far and in which direction the tectonic plates moved is that they can monitor it with GPS.
Does anyone still think GPS needs a map?

Yes the GPS works inside a bad map, your device would still need a moon map. What good is a map of the earth going to do you on the moon? You are looking for your postion on the moon, the device will need a map to do that. and even if you want to argue that it can just give you coordiates in numbers, it would have to have a program that extended beyond the earth to do so.

Why are we arguing this anyway? You already said in your first or secound post GPS on the moon wouldn't work(correction you said if you have a military GPS it would).

I debate that, so we argue. great 
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 16:44:57 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #67 on: 03/04/2011 17:03:50 »
But I think also we need to clarify the Question

It was "would My GPS device work on the moon"

No super big antennas, no extra programs in the device for outer space co ordinations(although he already excepted that as a given).

His hand held device.

The answer is no!
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 17:09:08 by Wiybit »
 

Offline JP

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #68 on: 03/04/2011 17:14:56 »
But I think also we need to clarify the Question

It was "would My GPS device work on the moon"

No super big antennas, no extra programs in the device for outer space co ordinations(although he already excepted that as a given).

His hand held device.

The answer is no!

No, that wasn't the initial question.  His initial question was:

Quote
Ignoring software issues related to the fact that the longitude and latitude wouldn't fit, if a GPS receiver was taken to the moon, would it still work to pinpoint my position, albeit on the lunar surface?

So he was assuming the software wouldn't be a limitation.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 17:52:33 by JP »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #69 on: 03/04/2011 17:36:59 »
So, it wouldn't work with a standard GPS.
Just like I said a while ago.

So, any subsequent posts must have referred to non-standard GPS receivers.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #70 on: 03/04/2011 18:03:22 »
But I think also we need to clarify the Question

It was "would My GPS device work on the moon"

No super big antennas, no extra programs in the device for outer space co ordinations(although he already excepted that as a given).

His hand held device.

The answer is no!

No, that wasn't the initial question.  His initial question was:

Quote
Ignoring software issues related to the fact that the longitude and latitude wouldn't fit, if a GPS receiver was taken to the moon, would it still work to pinpoint my position, albeit on the lunar surface?

It's the title of the thread.


So he was assuming the software wouldn't be a limitation.

Yes as I said= (although he already excepted that as a given) to say that he knew it would be a problem but assuming for the question it wouldn't be. Makes sense, it's given that the program would need to be improved, the question is one of a hand held device being able to recieve a signal on the moon.

Or maybe better said "knowing about the software issues, so ignoring them for the sake of the question(so we assume it would be fine), would the GPS device be able to tell me my position when on the moon? 

I should have worded it better actually, but asuming the device would be fine means "no extra programing needed" I can totally see how that can come across differently.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 18:22:26 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Geezer

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #71 on: 03/04/2011 18:20:00 »

Or maybe better said "knowing about the software issues, so ignoring them for the sake of the question(so we assume it would be fine), would the GPS device be able to tell me my position when on the moon?
 

...and the answer is still yes, although, as has been pointed out more than a few times, the accuracy would not be very good.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #72 on: 03/04/2011 18:23:49 »

Or maybe better said "knowing about the software issues, so ignoring them for the sake of the question(so we assume it would be fine), would the GPS device be able to tell me my position when on the moon?
 

...and the answer is still yes, although, as has been pointed out more than a few times, the accuracy would not be very good.

No, Bored said no, I dont think it would either, there is a disagreement here.

It's a hand held device, that will not work indoors. It has the programming(as a given) but I do not think the reception capability.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 18:31:24 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #73 on: 03/04/2011 19:18:03 »
Maybe if we knew the reception specs on the device.

What hand held GPS device is it, just a standard one I assume.

Lets go shopping:-

Weighing in at $259.99 it's the "Garmin GPSMAP 76CSx Handheld GPS Devices"
http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-GPSMAP-76CSx-Handheld-Devices/dp/B003PQHDX8
Quote
The GPSMAP 76CSx is designed for serious outdoor enthusiasts. Includes a built-in Americas autoroute basemap with automatic routing capabilities, including highways, exits, and tide data. Internal memory is preloaded with a marine point database. 1,000 user waypoints with name and graphic symbol; 50 reversible routes. Position formats include Lat/Lon, UTM, Loran TDs, Maidenhead, MGRS, user grid, and more. 10,000-point automatic track log; 20 saved tracks (500 points each) let you retrace your path in both directions. Trip computer provides odometer, stopped time, moving average, overall average, total time, max speed, and more. Elevation computer provides current elevation, ascent/descent rate, minimum/ maximum elevation, total ascent and descent, average and maximum ascent and descent rate. Navigation instructions can be shared with repeaters, plotters, and autopilots using NMEA protocols through the dedicated serial port. Built-in celestial tables for sun and moon calculations and the best times to fish and hunt. Compatible with most MapSource products. Large-numbers option for easy viewing; dual-position display mode. LED backlit display and keypad. New high-sensitivity WAAS-capable GPS receiver by SiRF acquires satellites faster and lets users track their location in challenging conditions, such as heavy foliage or deep canyons. Built-in quad-helix receiving antenna with remote antenna capability. Sensors: Electronic compass displays accurate heading while standing still. Barometric altimeter for extremely accurate elevation data. Includes a USB interface cable, MapSource Trip Waypoint Manager CD, lanyard, owners manual and quick-start guide. MicroSD card slot allows for storage of optional MapSource detail (128 MB microSD included). Battery life: 18 hours (typical use) using two AA alkaline batteries. Water resistant: The GPS case can withstand accidental immersion in one meter of water for up to 30 minutes. Unit floats w

Weighing in at $499.99 it's the "Garmin Oregon® 450"
http://www.zappos.com/garmin-oregon-450-t-n-a
Quote

■Hit the moon trail with the handheld Garmin® Oregon® 450T GPS equipped with a rugged, touchscreen along with preloaded topographic maps, 3-D map views, a high-sensitivity receiver, barometric altimeter, electronic compass, picture viewer and more.
■3" diagonal, sunlight-readable, color, touch screen display that offers crystal clear enhanced colors, high-resolution images and easy-to-use interface.
■Preloaded U.S. or European topographic maps, 3-D map view and a built-in worldwide basemap with shaded relief give you all the tools for serious climbing or hiking. Map detail includes national, state and local parks and forests, along with terrain contours, elevation information, trails, rivers, lakes and points of interest.
■Share your waypoints, tracks, routes and geocaches wirelessly other compatible Oregon®, Colorado® and Dakota® users.
■Barometric altimeter tracks changes in pressure to pinpoint your precise altitude.
■Geocaching-friendly: a high-tech version of hide-and-seek where you explore the outdoors in search of hidden treasure and adventure. Maintained by a worldwide community of geocachers, Cache locations are hidden high and low around the globe.
■Built-in 3-axis tilt-compensated electronic compass shows where you are heading even when you're standing still, without holding it level.
■Plot barometric pressure over time to keep an eye on changing weather.
■With a high-sensitivity, WAAS-enabled GPS receiver and HotFix™ satellite prediction, Oregon® 450 locates your position quickly and precisely and maintains its GPS location even in heavy cover and deep canyons.
■When connected to your computer and the internet, you can get a detailed analysis of your activities and send tracks to your outdoor device using Garmin Connect™.
■Additional Features:
•Automatic routing: turn by turn routing on roads.
•Electronic compass.
•Touch screen.
•Barometric altimeter.
•Custom maps compatible.
•Outdoor GPS games.
•Hunting and fishing calendar.
•Sun and moon information.
•Tide tables.
•Area calculation.
•Custom POIs: ability to add additional points of interest.
•Picture viewer.

■Maps & Memory:
•Basemap.
•Ability to add maps.
•Built in memory: 850 MB.
• Accepts microSD™ data card(not included).
•Waypoints: 2000.
•Routes: 200.
•Track Log: 10,000 points, 200 saved tracks.
■Waterproof (IPx7).
■Interface: high-speed USB and NMEA 0183 compatible.
■Requires 2 AA batteries (not included) for up to 16 hours of battery life.
■Dimensions: 2.3" W x 4.5" H x 1.4" D.
■Display Size: 1.53" W x 2.55" H.
■Display resolution (WxH): 240 x 400 pixels.
■Display type: transflective color TFT touch screen.
■Weight: 6.8 oz with batteries.
■Comes with:
•Oregon® 450T.
• Carabiner clip.
•USB cable.
•Quick start manual.

■Zappos Retail, Inc. makes every attempt to provide accurate information for each electronic product. Manufacturer packaging and specifications may be different from the information provided.

Please note, Zappos Retail, Inc. gladly accepts returns on all electronic products for up to 365 days from the original purchase date. In order to process your return and refund, returned electronic products must be unused and in the original condition and packaging in which it was purchased and include any manuals, cabling and accessories. Video Games, software, DVD and Blu-ray™ Disc must be returned unopened in their original shrink-wrap for a refund.

And last but not least
 
Weighing in at $149.99 it's the "Garmin eTrex Legend H Mapping Handheld GPS"
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/186-0199465-9889623?asin=B001OMGVJW&AFID=Froogle_df&LNM=|
Quote
•Mobile GPS Features: High-Sensitivity GPS Receiver, Sun/Moon Information, Built-In Base Maps, Hunt/Fish Calendar
•Mapping Features: Routes
•Points of Interest: 0
•Number of Waypoints: 1000
•Electronic Display Features: LCD Screen
•Display Size: 1.1 "
•Screen Resolution: 160 x 240
•Emergency Call Device: No
•Battery Life: Up to 18 Hours



Right so Top middle and bottom of the price range.

Basically I think we pick one, and then use that as the basis of the question. What do you think?

On the moon full battery, has the programs needed, could it get a signal and so give us a position?
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 19:35:59 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #74 on: 03/04/2011 19:20:15 »
Not sure about no. three it has a calendar to hunt fish. Actually they all do.

But then no. 3, has 0 points of interest, and no call for emergencies device, although why you would want a device that gets you an emergency, I don't know.

« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 19:42:54 by Wiybit »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #74 on: 03/04/2011 19:20:15 »

 

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