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Author Topic: Is there anyway to re-coat a semi melted nuclear fuel rod?  (Read 15161 times)

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Is there anyway to re-coat a semi melted nuclear fuel rod?
« Reply #25 on: 05/04/2011 16:21:28 »

 wrong about the origin of the name of plutonium,

Clearly relates to pluto, and pluto is;-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_(mythology)

The element is named after the former planet Pluto.

And the planets get their names from the Greek or Romans Gods, just as Juptier, and Mars all take there names from different Greek or Roman Gods, of War, or time etc. The mythology was arround long before the planets were discovered.

Pluto the planet was discovered
Quote
Pluto was discovered February 18th, 1930

The God pluto was from greek and roman mythology was around for atleast 2000 years certainly longer actually.
« Last Edit: 05/04/2011 16:25:10 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Is there anyway to re-coat a semi melted nuclear fuel rod?
« Reply #26 on: 05/04/2011 16:44:55 »
He was wrong when he said it could only have come from soil sampling; it could, for example, have been from air sampling or  washed off the suits the guys wore (or from the handle of the gent's bog...)

I dont know that he did say that, he didn't say it could only have come from, he said it must have come from, based I assume on the reality as he stated it, that background radiation would interefere with the giger counter reception.




Plutonium  was, in fact, named after the (erstwhile) planet (as Geezer pointed out) so he was wrong to say it was named after Hell.

and the planet the greek God of the under world. If the material is named after the planet and the planet named after the God then the material is ultimately named after the god.


Whatever his point may have been, in the first place Geiger counters generally respond better to alphas than to gammas and in the second place there's nothing to stop someone using an alpha energy spectrometer to distinguish Pu from pother alpha emitters.
If the background is still too high then you can clean up the  Pu chemically first.
The bloke doesn't seem to realise that the Japanese nuclear industry is very advanced and they are quite capable of doing that sort of analysis.

Yet are not being very forth comming with info.



Fundamentally, finding 5 places where there's Pu proves that Pu is present in 5 places; neither more nor less.
Saying otherwise is simply not telling the truth.

But it could suggest that there are more present, finding some then saying there could be more is hardly that much of a leap. Finding none and saying there could be some is more of a jump dont you think? I see your point, but finding any on top soil, is slightly suggestive there could be more, and considering that we know the mox three reactors ruptured, surely the two facts combined suggest there has been a leak so a lot more could potencially be present.


There's also the very real possibility that the Pu was there from before the 'quake.

Incidentally, I know that Hell and Hades are different places. I believe Hell is in Michigan, but I haven't checked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan

On the other hand, Hades is in Belgium
http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/100120_env_rad_prof_andreotti.pdf
I know, I have been there (as a visitor- I wasn't working on that project)


Why are you so determined to believe the guy ?


I am not, why do you think I asked for your oppinion.

Although it would help if you watch the whole thing tho. He is an nuclear engineer and was also involved in the investigation relating to the three mile island incident(atleast he claims that).
« Last Edit: 05/04/2011 16:51:25 by Wiybit »
 

Offline Geezer

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Is there anyway to re-coat a semi melted nuclear fuel rod?
« Reply #27 on: 05/04/2011 18:56:36 »


Plutonium  was, in fact, named after the (erstwhile) planet (as Geezer pointed out) so he was wrong to say it was named after Hell.

and the planet the greek God of the under world. If the material is named after the planet and the planet named after the God then the material is ultimately named after the god.


Wiybit, you are just being silly to try to prove a point. The elements uranium, neptunium and plutonium were named after the planets Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #28 on: 05/04/2011 19:37:22 »
"he didn't say it could only have come from, he said it must have come from, "
Same thing.

"Yet are not being very forth comming with info."
Bollocks. If they were not forthcoming with the information about finding Pu then we wouldn't know about it.

"I am not, why do you think I asked for your oppinion."
Apparently, so you could try to argue with it.

The facts are clear. The bloke, nuclear engineer or not, was flat out wrong about a lot of things.

If I watched the whole thing he would still be wrong about those things.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #29 on: 05/04/2011 19:45:59 »


Plutonium  was, in fact, named after the (erstwhile) planet (as Geezer pointed out) so he was wrong to say it was named after Hell.

and the planet the greek God of the under world. If the material is named after the planet and the planet named after the God then the material is ultimately named after the god.


Wiybit, you are just being silly to try to prove a point. The elements uranium, neptunium and plutonium were named after the planets Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.

Well you can imterprite in that manner if you wish but I am not.

The planets take there names from the greek gods, if then elements have taken there names from the planets, then ultimately the elements names do relate to the orginal sourse of the planets name.

This discussion has come about becuase BC said that the Nuclear engineer in the film I posted was wrong to say that plutoium took it's name from, pluto(hades) the god of the underworld.

The guy in the film is wrong that hades is hell, I completely agree there, but that is a mistake even religious people make. You ask the average Jew what Sheol is and they wont know neither will most Christians. They'll all know what Hell is, and sadly people do mix them up that is the mistake of the engineer in the film, not the ascertion over the name comming from Hades, but that hades is Hell.

I asked BC for his oppinion, to discuss it and so get a better grasp on the situation. Where BC makes a comment I feel is wrong I'll challenge him. There is no intencion by me to prove a point, rather I'm looking to find the truth of the issue.

And the comment about pluto is a bit of both, No Hades is not Hell, but yes plutoium does take it name from the God of the underworld.
http://www.kidsastronomy.com/pluto.htm
Quote
Pluto means:
Pluto was thought to be the god to whom all men must eventually go. Romans believed him to be the god of the underworld. In Greek mythology, he is known as Hades

Quote
Pluto was the only planet to be named by a kid. After the planet was discovered in 1930, an 11-year-old girl who lived in Oxford, England, by the name of Venetia Burney, suggested that this new planet needed to be named after the Roman god of the underworld.
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #30 on: 05/04/2011 19:53:47 »
"he didn't say it could only have come from, he said it must have come from, "
Same thing.

Not nessecerily, if he is talking about the means they use to test. I am assuming ofcourse, but if he knows the means they are using only allow for soil tests then they must have come from then. is differnt to saying that the only test are soil so they have to have come from soil tests. one is limited by the type of test the other says it's the only way to know.




"Yet are not being very forth comming with info."
Bollocks. If they were not forthcoming with the information about finding Pu then we wouldn't know about it.

Saying there is some plutoium is not the same as telling us everything they know, to say the information being given out is not so great, I'm not the only one to say the Japanese government has also been complaining about the amount of information TEPCO is realeasing.



"I am not, why do you think I asked for your oppinion."
Apparently, so you could try to argue with it.

Not to argue, to discuss and so clarify where he is right and where not, if at all.

 

Offline Geezer

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Is there anyway to re-coat a semi melted nuclear fuel rod?
« Reply #31 on: 05/04/2011 20:16:23 »
Wiybit,

You can interpret it any way you like, but I do care that you don't spread misinformation on TNS. I am fully aware of the origin of the name Pluto and where the "planet" got it's name, but the element was named after the planet.

The character on Youtube deliberately implies that it was called plutonium because it is some sort of hellish element. That is flat out wrong. Either he does not know what he's talking about, or he is deliberately misinforming viewers by dramatizing his story.
 

Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #32 on: 06/04/2011 12:19:15 »
Hopefully this will nail the debate that Plutonium was NOT named to be hellish or infernal.  please note the bolded sections

Quote
Venetia, can you tell us a little bit about the circumstances that happened in 1930 that brought you to suggest the name of Pluto?

Yes, I don’t quite know why I suggested it. I think it was on March the 14th, 1930 and I was having breakfast with my mother and my grandfather. And my grandfather read out at breakfast the great news and said he wondered what it would be called. And for some reason, I after a short pause, said, “Why not call it Pluto?” I did know, I was fairly familiar with Greek and Roman legends from various children’s books that I had read, and of course I did know about the solar system and the names the other planets have. And so I suppose I just thought that this was a name that hadn’t been used. And there it was. The rest was entirely my grandfather’s work.

Quote
And you thought about it because of the Greek and Roman mythology about Pluto being the god of the underworld?

I don’t think…I doubt if I was as subtle as that. I just thought it was a name that hadn’t been used so far, and might be an obvious one to have.


from here
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/podcasting/transcript_pluto_naming_podcast.html
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #33 on: 06/04/2011 19:36:08 »
The bloke said "this had to be from soil samples" and that's simply not true. As I said, it could have been from an air sample or elsewhere.
Of course, you can interpret that as a set of instructions for a dance routine if you like.

"That wasnt his point, his point was that plutoium gives off alpha not gama, so alpha from plutoium is harder to spot amoungst all the other alpha radiation that is there, interference. "
as far as I can see his point was to scaremonger.
However his assertion was that it's difficult to spot plutonium compared to some other elements (actually it depends on the particular plutonium isotope, but that's not the point).

This is a red herring.
The people looking are not some bunch of Charlies who picked up a GM counter at the lcal junk shop. They are experienced nuclear workers.
They know their stuff and, since I know how to detect Pu in the presence of other stuff (and it's not my field) it's fair to assume that the experts there know it too.

It's more difficult- fair enough, but so what? It's nothing like impossible.
My point was that, since he makes elementary errors of fact and tacitly assumes those on-site are incompetent I'd rather not listen to him.

"Not to argue, to discuss and so clarify where he is right and where not, if at all."
Then why is it that, even when there is plentiful evidence that, for example, the element is named after the planet, you argue?
Actually, in a sense you are right; you don't argue, you just contradict.

 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #34 on: 11/04/2011 22:07:33 »
The bloke said "this had to be from soil samples" and that's simply not true. As I said, it could have been from an air sample or elsewhere.
Of course, you can interpret that as a set of instructions for a dance routine if you like.

Sounds like a pagan dance: "AIR sample" wiggle or something, "EARTH samples" put dust on head and wiggle or something.

He works in the industry and knows the equipment, my point was maybe he meant with the equipment they are using only from soil could plutonium have been found.


"That wasnt his point, his point was that plutoium gives off alpha not gama, so alpha from plutoium is harder to spot amoungst all the other alpha radiation that is there, interference. "
as far as I can see his point was to scaremonger.
However his assertion was that it's difficult to spot plutonium compared to some other elements (actually it depends on the particular plutonium isotope, but that's not the point).

This is a red herring.
The people looking are not some bunch of Charlies who picked up a GM counter at the lcal junk shop. They are experienced nuclear workers.
They know their stuff and, since I know how to detect Pu in the presence of other stuff (and it's not my field) it's fair to assume that the experts there know it too.

Is it corporations are a bunch of cheap scates, if they can save money buying GM counters from junk shops often you'll find they will, no different to the workers going to hospital because their protective boots were not water-proff, so while you might assume that they have the best stuff, they also might not, so he could very well be right to claim their equipment will only find plutonium from soil.

Not say is right, I am saying he could be, and that it isn't clear.



It's more difficult- fair enough, but so what? It's nothing like impossible.
My point was that, since he makes elementary errors of fact and tacitly assumes those on-site are incompetent I'd rather not listen to him.

He made an elementary error over Hell and the underworld, it's hardly a biggy, His actual pharse was "Plutonium is one of the rather more nasty elements" and considering how dangerous plutonium can be to people he is hardly that off.



"Not to argue, to discuss and so clarify where he is right and where not, if at all."
Then why is it that, even when there is plentiful evidence that, for example, the element is named after the planet, you argue?

That as the planet is name after the God so to must the eliment that is named after the planet, they both take their name from pluto the god, the source of the name. It was his statement, you said was false, he is right about it being named after pluto just wrong about pluto being hell, hades is the name of the underworld and Pluto the god that ruled over it.

So the origin of the name is pluto the god of the underworld, but that has nothing to do with hell though. So he is half right. But no doubt you'll carry on contesting it... 


Actually, in a sense you are right; you don't argue, you just contradict.

No I dont :)





that is one of my fav python sketches also
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #35 on: 12/04/2011 07:04:17 »
They found Pu so they clearly have the kit to measure it. It is scarcely harder to take an air sample than a soil sample. It's easier to analyse the air sample. I know- that's my day- job.


No matter how much the Japanese did, or didn't spend, he was wrong about alpha particles and gamma rays with a GM counter.

The error in the origin of the word is,indeed, trivial.
Your insistence that there is no error is unscientific.

 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #36 on: 12/04/2011 13:24:38 »
They found Pu so they clearly have the kit to measure it. It is scarcely harder to take an air sample than a soil sample. It's easier to analyse the air sample. I know- that's my day- job.


No matter how much the Japanese did, or didn't spend, he was wrong about alpha particles and gamma rays with a GM counter.

The error in the origin of the word is,indeed, trivial.
Your insistence that there is no error is unscientific.

I never suggested there was no error, rather I suggested that the errors(if at all) were not so extreme as you suggested they were and offered possible reasons, why he said the things he did. Looking at Hume and the empirical scale, I would have thought that to be a rather scientific way to look at it, I never said the was flat right or flat wrong, you go with the weight of evidence don't you?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #37 on: 12/04/2011 19:23:24 »
"I never suggested there was no error"
except that what you said was
"He is wrong about what? "
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #38 on: 13/04/2011 17:31:31 »
"I never suggested there was no error"
except that what you said was
"He is wrong about what? "


A question, not a statement, a request for clarification, not a statement saying he made no error.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #39 on: 14/04/2011 07:13:51 »
Really?
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #41 on: 14/04/2011 19:15:10 »
Are you quite certain about that?
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #42 on: 16/04/2011 21:00:06 »
Are you quite certain about that?


Yes BC, what little trappy game are you seeking to play here? I answered you question, or are you trying to imply that's what I do, just ask the same question again and again? Not the case.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #43 on: 16/04/2011 21:18:57 »
If I keep asking questions, do you think other people will think I don't agree with what you said?

Do you agree that by asking the right questions I can make it clear that I don't agree with your assertion that "I never suggested there was no error" when you asked "He is wrong about what? "?

Have you noticed that all of  these thing I have said are questions,
 

Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #44 on: 16/04/2011 22:07:13 »
If I keep asking questions, do you think other people will think I don't agree with what you said?

I think other people will think for themselves and therefore generate all manner of different oppinions.



Do you agree that by asking the right questions I can make it clear that I don't agree with your assertion that "I never suggested there was no error"

I see no need to ask a question, to define a position.


when you asked "He is wrong about what? "?

Have you noticed that all of these thing I have said are questions,

No to quote you, you made no questions, you made statements I questioned your statements. You are seeking to imply that my questions were pointless or made with some other motive- Not the case


My opinion is that his video is like farting in a lift- wrong on many levels.

He's wrong about soil sampling, wrong about the origin of the name of plutonium, wrong about the fact that you can't pick up alphas with a Geiger counter, and wrong about the idea that five proves there are more than 5.

I gave up after about a minute and a quarter.

The guy was talking more bollocks than I can stand.

that is what you said and I questioned your points. As you said "he is wrong about soil samples", and I replied "He is wrong about what? He is wrong they have found Plutoium in five places?"

You made the statement "he is wrong about soil samples" but never defined what about the soil samples he was wrong about, so I asked, quite simple really.

As I said before:-

"I never suggested there was no error"
except that what you said was
"He is wrong about what? "


A question, not a statement, a request for clarification, not a statement saying he made no error.
« Last Edit: 16/04/2011 22:19:20 by Wiybit »
 

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