# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Dynamo from a water wheel?  (Read 13561 times)

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« on: 31/03/2011 15:43:59 »
If I connected a dynamo to a water wheel.

And used gravity to cause water to fall from a pipe, unto the wheel, like a water fall.

What kinda of electrical power could I generate?

Say the pipe was 6-10inches.

The energy would be comming from the weight of the water and the gravity to rotate the dynamo.

But potencially, How much electrical power could be generated?

#### imatfaal

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #1 on: 01/04/2011 13:00:03 »
The maximum amount of energy would be the potential that your mass of water has by being at a greater height than its surroundings - and inefficiencies would severely cut into this amount of total possible.  Hydropower only works out because we utilise water that has been "lifted up" against gravity by the sun ultimately.

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #2 on: 01/04/2011 14:48:52 »
The maximum amount of energy would be the potential that your mass of water has by being at a greater height than its surroundings - and inefficiencies would severely cut into this amount of total possible.  Hydropower only works out because we utilise water that has been "lifted up" against gravity by the sun ultimately.

Yet a smaller dynamo, will turn eaiser with less influence, adapting a Dynamo to a waterwheel has it's issues within the design, you need the full energy avaiable to be brought to bare upon the wheel.
Combining both flow speed and gravity surely should give more input.

#### imatfaal

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #3 on: 01/04/2011 16:08:51 »
Nothing gives you more input! This is basic physics; you cannot get more energy out than you put in.  Clever mechanisms, good balancing, and smooth bearings can allow you to get close to the optimum; but nothing allows you to exceed it.

Flow speed comes from gravity so doesn't contribute anything more.

If you could get more energy from water flowing downhill than the potential energy stored you could use some of the energy to pump the water back up and syphon off the rest as free energy.  This does not work.

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #4 on: 01/04/2011 17:10:31 »
Nothing gives you more input! This is basic physics; you cannot get more energy out than you put in.  Clever mechanisms, good balancing, and smooth bearings can allow you to get close to the optimum; but nothing allows you to exceed it.

Flow speed comes from gravity so doesn't contribute anything more.

If you could get more energy from water flowing downhill than the potential energy stored you could use some of the energy to pump the water back up and syphon off the rest as free energy.  This does not work.

Syphoning uses pressures and suchs the water up and that water then happens to continually flow, if then that water fed a dynamo there would be no energy being used to suck up the water.

Potentially that would give you consistent power, with no energy expense to such up the water other that the initial energy expense to start syphoning, provided that supply of water continued it should just carry on, producing electrity.

You might have to syphon from one tank to other in a series to increase the height level of the water suffiently but that it possible.

Esspecially as you can syphon into a tank that has I high volume level, so you simply connect that at the bottom of the tank, the increase in water flows from the top.

But there is more enery in flow than just from gravity, it depends how that flow is produced to start with.

« Last Edit: 01/04/2011 17:21:13 by Wiybit »

#### peppercorn

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #5 on: 01/04/2011 18:25:40 »
You might have to syphon from one tank to other in a series to increase the height level of the water sufficiently but that it possible.

This runs into fundamentally similar limits as your so-called 'magnetic motors' - It will only result in your system eventually settling to an energy equilibrium. At that point the water (or motor or unicorn-horns for that matter) will stop any exhibiting any  motion. Either that, or you have to add more energy from outside the system and you can guarantee that the energy added will always outweigh the energy you can recover.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2011 18:28:00 by peppercorn »

#### imatfaal

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #6 on: 01/04/2011 19:15:38 »
Wiybit - if you are so sure, then build one.  If you can demonstrate to a scientific audience an isolated device that can get more power out than you put in then fame and fortune will be yours.

To avoid disappointment I will tell you now - it will not work.  This is not dogmatism, mindless defence of the status quo, or protection of some scientific clique through denial and obfuscation; this is an understanding of certain physical laws.  It is possible these laws may one day be found to be lacking (I lack the ability to see how) - but that experiment will not involve syphons and falling water, they have already been tried many years ago and we understand very well the forces involved.

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #7 on: 01/04/2011 20:07:41 »
Wiybit - if you are so sure, then build one.  If you can demonstrate to a scientific audience an isolated device that can get more power out than you put in then fame and fortune will be yours.

not really interested thanks.

To avoid disappointment I will tell you now - it will not work.  This is not dogmatism, mindless defence of the status quo, or protection of some scientific clique through denial and obfuscation; this is an understanding of certain physical laws.  It is possible these laws may one day be found to be lacking (I lack the ability to see how) - but that experiment will not involve syphons and falling water, they have already been tried many years ago and we understand very well the forces involved.

Umm. Well we'll see, I might just experiment with it. But if you can through siphoning change the height of water, and I'm sure you can, as the exit only has to be lower then the surface.

Then even if it is a long winded process, you could raise it up incramentally. Then drop it on a water wheel dynamo.

#### Geezer

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #8 on: 01/04/2011 20:12:32 »

Umm. Well we'll see, I might just experiment with it. But if you can through siphoning change the height of water, and I'm sure you can, as the exit only has to be lower then the surface.

Then even if it is a long winded process, you could raise it up incramentally. Then drop it on a water wheel dynamo.

If you believe that, I'm sure you would also be interested in purchasing some shares in a certain bridge I happen to own.

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #9 on: 01/04/2011 20:30:29 »

Umm. Well we'll see, I might just experiment with it. But if you can through siphoning change the height of water, and I'm sure you can, as the exit only has to be lower then the surface.

Then even if it is a long winded process, you could raise it up incramentally. Then drop it on a water wheel dynamo.

If you believe that, I'm sure you would also be interested in purchasing some shares in a certain bridge I happen to own.

Is it a toll bridge? We get diviens for them?

#### Jolly- Joliver

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• Posts: 584
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #10 on: 01/04/2011 20:48:19 »
Simple experiment

A full bucket of water, and a plastic liter and a half bottle with the top part removed say you cut off 2-3 inches of the top that should also be full of water and a hose pipe.

&
|   |  dynamo
|   |
|   |    \---------- /
|   |     \          /
|   |      \        /
|*_|       \      /
\----/

The * being the point of the exit for the hose pipe Siphon water, & being the place where water will leave the bottle. through siphoning you would have increased the height level of the water.

--- = water level

Probably a good idea to start siphoning at a lower position, then raising the bottle once it's working. Big bucket, garden hose pipe with a weight on the exit end of the pipe to hold it in position inside the bottle.
« Last Edit: 01/04/2011 21:36:08 by Wiybit »

#### Geezer

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #11 on: 01/04/2011 21:31:51 »
Simple experiment

A full bucket of water, and a plastic liter and a half bottle with the top part removed say you cut off 2-3 inches of the top that should also be full of water and a hose pipe.

&
|   |  Dynamo
|   |
|   |    \---------- /
|   |     \          /
|   |      \        /
|*_|       \      /
\----/

The * being the point of the exit for the hose pipe Siphon water, & being the place where water will leave the bottle. through siphoning you would have increased the height level of the water.

--- = water level

Probably a good idea to start siphoning at a lower position, then raising the bottle once it's working. Big bucket, garden hose pipe with a weight on the exit end of the pipe to hold it in position inside the bottle.

Go try it and report back when you have the results.

#### Jolly- Joliver

• Hero Member
• Posts: 584
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #12 on: 01/04/2011 21:37:57 »
Simple experiment

A full bucket of water, and a plastic liter and a half bottle with the top part removed say you cut off 2-3 inches of the top that should also be full of water and a hose pipe.

&
|   |  Dynamo
|   |
|   |    \---------- /
|   |     \          /
|   |      \        /
|*_|       \      /
\----/

The * being the point of the exit for the hose pipe Siphon water, & being the place where water will leave the bottle. through siphoning you would have increased the height level of the water.

--- = water level

Probably a good idea to start siphoning at a lower position, then raising the bottle once it's working. Big bucket, garden hose pipe with a weight on the exit end of the pipe to hold it in position inside the bottle.

Go try it and report back when you have the results.

I have no hose pipe.  [:-'(]

I have a bucket I have a 1.5 litre bottle, but no hose pipe.  [:-'(]

#### Jolly- Joliver

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• Posts: 584
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #13 on: 01/04/2011 21:41:07 »

I have no hose pipe.  [:-'(]

I have a bucket I have a 1.5 litre bottle, but no hose pipe.  [:-'(]

scrap that Have just taken shower apart
[8D] 5 mins

« Last Edit: 01/04/2011 22:10:48 by Wiybit »

#### Jolly- Joliver

• Hero Member
• Posts: 584
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #14 on: 01/04/2011 22:11:33 »

I have no hose pipe.  [:-'(]

I have a bucket I have a 1.5 litre bottle, but no hose pipe.  [:-'(]

scrap that Have just taken shower apart
[8D] 5 mins

Oh right. [:I]

You know that could still feed a water wheel.

What about this as an idea, You placed Dynamos inside the hose?

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #15 on: 02/04/2011 00:57:06 »
What about this as an idea, You placed Dynamos inside the hose?

Can you not trick the bucket? Have two or three bucket connected by a tube, then transfer water into a central bucket while at the same time siphoning water out of it, they're always looking for equalibium, you just design a system that refuses to allow that, therefore that water just goes round and round.

#### Geezer

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 8328
• "Vive la résistance!"
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #16 on: 02/04/2011 06:06:27 »
Science is based on experiment. If you can make your experiment work, it might be science. If you can't, it's more likely to be complete bul*sh*t.

#### Madidus_Scientia

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #17 on: 02/04/2011 11:52:50 »

#### rosy

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• Chemistry
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #18 on: 02/04/2011 12:13:19 »
Quote
Can you not trick the bucket? Have two or three bucket connected by a tube, then transfer water into a central bucket while at the same time siphoning water out of it, they're always looking for equalibium, you just design a system that refuses to allow that, therefore that water just goes round and round.

In a word, no.

There is overwhelming evidence, gathered by a very large number of people, over a very large number of years, that this is simply not how the universe works.

In effect what you are suggesting is entirely equivalent to taking an egg out of the fridge, letting go of it, and expecting it to smash on the ceiling.

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #19 on: 02/04/2011 18:50:51 »
Quote
Can you not trick the bucket? Have two or three bucket connected by a tube, then transfer water into a central bucket while at the same time siphoning water out of it, they're always looking for equalibium, you just design a system that refuses to allow that, therefore that water just goes round and round.

In a word, no.

There is overwhelming evidence, gathered by a very large number of people, over a very large number of years, that this is simply not how the universe works.

In effect what you are suggesting is entirely equivalent to taking an egg out of the fridge, letting go of it, and expecting it to smash on the ceiling.

Thankyou rosy, I was looking at combining it with a scale.

Attaching a balloon at the bottom of the 1.5 litre bottle with the added weight it would drop forcing out the water from the balloon(or other thing I used to hold the water underneath) and then over the top, but there is the issue of height still, the water will stop at the same level as the bucket, forming some kind of catch to increase the weight before in releases you cause a greater down force, but still that water will be lower as it drops. There might be a way to get as much as possible on a similar level to the bucket, but it's gonna be a lot of fiddling about.

An inner tube with holes and a piston might increase the amount that comes out the top of the bottle, but still transfering that will, probably be a nightmare.

Quote
Science is based on experiment. If you can make your experiment work, it might be science. If you can't, it's more likely to be complete bul*sh*t.

"If it doesn't match experiment it's not science" Feynman

I'm experimenting with bul*Si*t, it's still an experiment, One day I'll have a plane that flys on siponed water HAHAHAHA!

#### rosy

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• Chemistry
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #20 on: 02/04/2011 19:08:49 »
Quote
Thankyou rosy, I was looking at combining it with a scale.

I've no idea, at all, what this means.

There's no way of getting energy out of falling water that hasn't already been put into raising the water.

Hydroelectric power works by using water which has been raised to top-of-the-hill level because the sun evaporated it and then it fell on as rain. Pumped water electricity storage works by using electricity at times of low demand to pump water to top-of-the-hill level in order to allow its descent to power turbines at times of high demand.

Lifting 1 kg of water by 1 m, against a gravitational force of 9.81 N/kg, will give you 9.81 J of stored energy. Your lifting technology, whether it's a person, or an electric powered pump, or whatever, will use a little more than 9.81 J, due to friction, electrical resistance, etc etc. You won't be able to extract all of the 9.81 J from allowing that water to fall back down that 1m, due to friction, electrical

It doesn't matter what you do with siphons, balloons and bottles, you're not going to get any extra energy out from that falling water.

#### Jolly- Joliver

• Hero Member
• Posts: 584
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #21 on: 02/04/2011 21:09:51 »
Quote
Thankyou rosy, I was looking at combining it with a scale.

I've no idea, at all, what this means.

It doesn't matter what you do with siphons, balloons and bottles, you're not going to get any extra energy out from that falling water.

By scale, I meant, a balance, scales So that as water left the bucket the buket would raise, but the litre bottle wouldnt because I would hold it up for a prolonged time, then when the weight was right it would fall, pushing out the water from the top by some means and transfering it to a compartment imbetween the bucket and the bottle, The bucket would also fall just as the water lifted out of the bottle, as it fell opening a gate letting in the water from the bottel. Basically using a weigth scale and balence, but not allowing the bottle to fall until in had enough weight to create the down force I wanted. Getting the bucket to fall at the same moment, would mean that they fall at the same time but the water from the bottle transfers back to the bucket easier.

Just a case of looking at a way to get the scale back into its starting position, so the process could be repeated. That's the tricky bit really, the energy expense to do so might take any benefit an probably would.

Not that that has anything to do with why I posted this thread, I was looking at something else, to use a water wheel for, then had an idea and asked.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2011 21:14:24 by Wiybit »

#### Jolly- Joliver

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##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #22 on: 03/04/2011 00:21:29 »
Back to school:-

#### Jolly- Joliver

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• Posts: 584
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #23 on: 03/04/2011 03:33:23 »
Quote
Thankyou rosy, I was looking at combining it with a scale.

There's no way of getting energy out of falling water that hasn't already been put into raising the water.

We'll see, looking at the scale idea, if you have the bucket set on a balence as it gives over water the bucket becomes lighter and then rises, thanks to the counter weight, meaning more water can be siponed into the next bucket which is highier up and the water has raised.

That way you can raise the water.

Got few ideas what to do next, removing the weight some how, a pre-prepared hose that will siphone when connected other wise it rests, dropping catch idea.

Maybe even a transfer scale, so that once as the top of one scale the bucket connets to a new scale somehow, the other bucket also activates starts to raise, and refills the old bucket in it's new position, process repeats, and each time it gets higher, two buckets one hose, and a system of interconected scales.

Simplest are generally the better ones.

#### Geezer

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• "Vive la résistance!"
##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #24 on: 03/04/2011 05:03:38 »
Wybit,

I'm trying to decide if you really don't get it, or you simply don't want to get it so you can keep spouting complete nonsense. Several people have gone to the trouble of trying to help you understand, but you are simply ignoring their help.

To prevent anyone else wasting their valuable time, I'm locking this topic. BTW, don't bother trying to start another topic on this subject.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Dynamo from a water wheel?
« Reply #24 on: 03/04/2011 05:03:38 »

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