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Stephen Garside

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« on: 19/04/2011 22:30:03 »
Stephen Garside  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
Hi guys,

Commonly held theory:  Time didn't exist before the big bang
Emerging theory:  There were multiple "big bangs"
 
my question(s):-

Are these theories in conflict?

If there were multiple big bangs:
Is there a time continuum?
Is a new clock created at each new big bang?
What happened to the old clock
 
Great show - thanks
 
Cheers,
Steve...   " Obesa cantavit "

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 19/04/2011 22:30:03 by _system »


 

Offline yor_on

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #1 on: 23/04/2011 22:06:47 »
Do you mean 'multiverses?
Weird thought.

And where does our 'arrow of time' comes into play in a 'multiverse'? Brian Green seems to be discussing a linear reality bifurcating(splitting)? If we assume that this is what he mean, then that would mean that you can backtrack this linearity to a 'start'. That 'start' will then include our macroscopic arrow of time. And that should mean a first 'event' bifurcating.

Don't think so myself. That the world is in a constant 'flux' of possibilities I can believe, that 'probability' is what defines us, or possibly for the arrow of time to 'demand' probability to remember us seems possible, unlikely but possible. That, if we argue around symmetries and their need for being upheld by, ah, SpaceTime?

But I don't believe in a linear causality chain defining us. The linearity we observe seems more of a island in a non-linearity, which in its turn, may or may not exist in a another type of 'linearity'. but that grander 'linearity' will in that case be something we can't define, yet. It's like 'dimensions' :) Pick your choice and roll the dice.
 

Offline Phractality

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #2 on: 23/04/2011 22:49:33 »
There are no established theories about multiverses, so I think this question belongs in New Theories.

If two universes branched off from a multiverse and are no longer connected in any way, then events in each universe have no place on the timeline of the other other universe. Laura Mersini-Houghton has suggested that the arrow of time in some universes may run backward relative to others. I believe there may be an infinity of universes operating at different size scales in the same location; there is a connection, but the arrow of time reverses from one scale to the next.
 

Offline Bill S

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #3 on: 24/04/2011 00:04:53 »
Unless there is a continuity of time between universes, which seems unlikely if time is "created" with each universe, then there is no distinction between a succession of single universes on the one hand, and a co-existing multiverse on the other.
 

Offline MikeS

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #4 on: 24/04/2011 06:51:07 »
Hi Steve,

Here is my take on the subject.  The universe is cyclic with matter universe following antimatter universe ad infinitum.  Within the changeover period between cycles the arrow of time reverses.  There is a brief moment within this period when time effectively ceases to exist, this is known as inflation.

It is the interaction of gravity and energy that we call time.  Gravity tries to slow
down photons but photons travel at the speed of light, which is a constant.  The
speed of light is allowed to be a constant as the rate of flow of time is a variable

See http://vixra.org/abs/1104.0063 and http://vixra.org/abs/1103.0102

Mike
 

Offline MikeS

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #5 on: 24/04/2011 07:17:13 »
I should have added that as time is an interaction between energy and gravity, both energy and mass are required for both time and universe to have any real meaning.  So time did not exist before the universe.  I believe it is mass that gives time an arrow (forward in our matter universe, reversed in an antimatter universe) and energy that gives time a rate of flow.  For the concept of time to have any real meaning, it must have an arrow and a rate of flow.  For this to happen both energy and mass have to be present.

Radical stuff?  Come on guys prove me wrong.

Mike
 

Offline Bill S

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #6 on: 26/04/2011 02:00:05 »
Quote from: MikeS
There is a brief moment within this period when time effectively ceases to exist, this is known as inflation.

3 questions, here, Mike:
1) Any moment, however brief is a segment of time; how can you have a moment when time does not exist?
2) If inflation occurs during this moment, there must be change; how can you have change unless you have time to measure it?
3) If time does not exist during this period, how can you say it is brief? Surely it could equally well be an eternity.
 

Offline Phractality

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #7 on: 26/04/2011 03:59:56 »
Quote from: MikeS
There is a brief moment within this period when time effectively ceases to exist, this is known as inflation.

3 questions, here, Mike:
1) Any moment, however brief is a segment of time; how can you have a moment when time does not exist?
2) If inflation occurs during this moment, there must be change; how can you have change unless you have time to measure it?
3) If time does not exist during this period, how can you say it is brief? Surely it could equally well be an eternity.

Our human languages are not well suited to describe what Mike is trying to explain. There is a similar scenario in my own model, where the arrow of time reverses between successive universes. (I am treading on thin ice if I describe my model, here. It can be found in New Theories.)

Why haven't the moderators moved this thread? As I said, before, there are no established theories concerning multiverses.
 

Offline MikeS

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #8 on: 26/04/2011 08:41:55 »
Phractality,
Your right some concepts are difficult to explain using language and even more difficult without.  I haven’t yet read your theory but I will.  Yes, I also believe in a cyclic universe with time reversing between cycles. This is very convenient as order to chaos becomes chaos to order, thereby not violating the second law of thermodynamics

Bill S,
To answer your questions:-

1)   I didn’t say time dosen’t exist, I said “time effectively ceases to exist”. It’s the language thing.  Say for instance that time is an interaction between mass and energy, energy divided by mass. As one cycle of the universe ends and another cycle starts the arrow of time is at that ‘instant’ equally double ended.  Mass, matter and antimatter cancel each other.  So the rate of flow of time is infinite but in both directions ‘at the same time’.  Time has two components, direction and rate of flow.  If one is missing or cancelled then time (as we know it) effectively ceases to exist. Imagine a universe that only contains matter (not in a black hole) and no energy.  In this frozen universe the arrow of time will have a direction but the clock will never tick.

2)   Time is a prerequisite for causality.  The rate of flow of time is infinite but in both directions ‘at the same time’.  Although the universe is inflating, it does so outside of ‘time’ and with no causality.  This is a part of the cycle of the universe that does not support life so from that point of view the fact that we cannot measure it is irrelevant.  An observer outside the universe could measure the time inflation took.

3)   As black holes from the previous cycle of the universe become white holes there is a ‘moment’ when the arrow of time is equally double ended.  That ‘’brief moment’ will pass as the mass of matter exceeds that of antimatter.  The ‘moment’ could not have been an eternity or it would never have ended.

What are the effects of inflation without causality?  The universe is isotropic and homogeneous.  If a cycle starts with many white holes instead of one, add inflation and you have a universe with no centre.

A black hole recycles its own mass (say antimatter) into matter.  Pair particle that form within the black hole or its event horizon are gravitationally sorted with antimatter particles remaining trapped and matter particles expelled.  This process, I imagine to be many orders of magnitude faster than Hawkin radiation.  Personally I believe the process would be fast.  The black hole would recycle itself until all that remained of it would be well… nothing.  I have added this paragraph to explain why I believe inflation was ‘brief’.  I use ‘brief’ in the cosmic sense.

Having had a quick look at the new theories section I personally feel there should be an independent section on new theories cosmology but after scientists successfully ‘weigh’ anti hydrogen new theories could be the mainstream and present mainstream become old theories.  Isn’t this an exciting time to live.  I feel immensely privileged.

Mike
 

Offline Phractality

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #9 on: 26/04/2011 18:41:12 »
Time is a prerequisite for causality.  The rate of flow of time is infinite but in both directions ‘at the same time’.  Although the universe is inflating, it does so outside of ‘time’ and with no causality.  This is a part of the cycle of the universe that does not support life so from that point of view the fact that we cannot measure it is irrelevant.  An observer outside the universe could measure the time inflation took.

For time in one universe to have a "rate of flow", it must be relative to time in another universe, and there must be some sort of interface between the two universes. The rate of flow would be a comparison of the duration of similar events in the two universes (assuming the universes are similar enough to even have similar events). For example, if the two universes occupy the same location, you could conceptually compare what their respective speeds of light should be. Perhaps light in one universe should be minus a googol times faster than in the other. (The minus indicates that it propagates from effect toward cause from the perspective of observers in the other universe.) If the two universes do not have two locations in common, there is no way to compare the time for light to pass from one to the other in both universes, and therefor, no way to compare the rate of flow of time. With no common points of reference between the two universes, the rate of flow of time in each compared to the other is both zero and infinite.

Another possible measure of rate of flow of time might be the Hubble constant in the two universe. If there is a logical connection between the expansions of space in two universes (as is the case in my model), it might serve as a comparison of their respective rates of flow of time.

The comparison cannot be made directly, as that would unite the two universes into one. How can you say they are not the same universe if you can directly measure the durations of similar events in both universes? Instead, you can only infer how fast time must flow in another universe, based on your model of how the other universe interfaces with your own.

I envision a greater universe which encompasses multiverses, some of which run in opposte time directions. That greater universe exists outside of time. Perhaps we should talk about universes, unichapters, unibooks and unilibraries. Why are we still discussing new theories in the mainstream science section?
 

Offline yor_on

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What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #10 on: 07/05/2011 05:39:37 »
Because I'm smiling :
Nah, not really, multiverses is in fact something that some physicists take most seriously. I have great problems imagining them myself, and as for why that is you can see my post above. You're right in that we might have to move it, when/if it becomes too 'spaced out', but the question did invite us to some speculation.
==

Ah maybe not, look at it this way. You have a first event, that event 'splits' in it's possible interactions into different 'reality's'. And as each 'reality' will/should(?) include all other relations craved, for any sort of 'SpaceTime', that should mean a new universe. And for each interaction it will grow into new 'universes' that also interacts and so grows into new universes, ad infinitum. It grows into a infinity of multiverses, almost immediately, looking at it this way. That is as long as we assume there will be a 'causality chain' existing for each universe. Also there is a question where the 'energy' for creating them comes?

And if we assume 'time' to go backwards you have two ways to look at it, maybe there are more too? You can think of it as linear processes or as 'time chunks'. In a linear process you may play the movie forward or reverse it, and the parts making up the movie will have a least size (like being quantum bits for example). Thinking of it as 'time chunks' you have processes that are descriptions of relations, they may be described linearly, but you can also consider the way a Feynman diagram describes how two different processes take place simultaneously, depending on how you read it, as one coherent process, a 'time chunk' of sorts :)

It all depends, and now we're getting weird(er) :)
(And yes, 'time chunks' as such don't use arrows if so, we do.)
==

Another question you might wonder about is how such an idea defines the arrow, and the interactions taken? Either you need to assume that all interactions (particles interacting) takes place, 'coordinated' over a whole SpaceTime, like 'one interaction per second' and so synchronized with each other. Or you assume that there is no such coordination, which then should mean that all individual particles can create whole new universes, including all 'copies' needed for getting a exact same universe, with the exception of just that/those two, etc, particles outcome.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2011 06:39:46 by yor_on »
 

Offline Tenergy

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Re: What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #11 on: 11/06/2015 22:08:10 »
I have a problem with the idea of multiple universes.  The definition of a 'universe' as I understand is that it encompasses EVERYTHING including ALL multiverses if they exist - even if they're situated in 'parallel'.   Is that not the proper definition?
 

Offline jerrygg38

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Re: What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
« Reply #12 on: 12/06/2015 09:45:23 »
   Time is a product of the physical universe. Prior to the last big bang the universe existed in pure energy. Under this condition there are no structures which can produce time clocks. Therefore prior to the last big bang there was no such thing as time. Once the big bang occurred protons, electrons, sub-particles, and photons formed. In New Theories I have proposed that the energy used to create these entities radiates away slowly.  Therefore one time clock is the time constant of the radiation. Another time clock is the hydrogen atom which expands at a reasonably fixed rate. In any event time is a product of the structures of the universe and without physical structures would not exist.
 

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Re: What happens to time in multiple big bangs?
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