The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?  (Read 13742 times)

Offline Hadrian

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2175
  • Scallywag
    • View Profile
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« on: 31/03/2006 18:32:25 »
Can anyone give an answer to this?

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.


 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #1 on: 31/03/2006 19:01:42 »
Easy question, the egg.

Eggs were around long before the first chicken arrived.  Ofcourse, they were not chicken eggs, but they were eggs.



George
 

Offline Hadrian

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2175
  • Scallywag
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #2 on: 31/03/2006 19:07:50 »
Yea i get that. But where do eggs fit into the scheme things reguarding birth etc.

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #3 on: 31/03/2006 19:10:17 »
When we go shopping, we buy eggs first, then chicken. QED


In fact there is argument that the egg preceded the chicken/bird by 140 million years but i will have to get permission first before posting it here.
 

Offline daveshorts

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Physics, Experiments
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chaosscience.org.uk
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #4 on: 31/03/2006 19:28:06 »
What do you mean by "the scheme things reguarding birth etc."?

A chicken egg is fertilised while it is still in the hen, it is finished, layed, and the foetus will develop inside if the temerature is kept right etc. Eventually it hatches...
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #5 on: 31/03/2006 19:57:02 »
quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian

Yea i get that. But where do eggs fit into the scheme things reguarding birth etc.




All animals start as eggs, just some eggs mature inside the body (as is true of placental bodies), whereas other eggs mature outside of the body.

An egg is to an animal what a seed is to a plant.



George
 

Offline Hadrian

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2175
  • Scallywag
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #6 on: 31/03/2006 20:28:47 »
Where did the hard shell come from and when did it first appear?

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #7 on: 31/03/2006 21:36:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian

Where did the hard shell come from and when did it first appear?




Not all eggs have a hard shell.  Birds eggs have hard shells, but as far as I know, reptile shells eggs have a leathery cover, not a hard mineral covering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosauria
quote:

Modern birds are considered to be the direct descendants of theropod dinosaurs.



What kind of eggs theropods laid I cannot say.



George
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #8 on: 01/04/2006 00:35:26 »
quote:
Where did the hard shell come from and when did it first appear?


Hadrian

An egg with a shell probably started off millions of years ago as nothing more than an egg which the hostís body rejected but couldnít eject or absorb and so it encased it in calcite (Calcium Carbonate).
 
Explanation.
Some life forms on earth which includes us humans have a natural process which entombs objects in calcite (Calcium Carbonate) which reside in the womb if the hostís body deems them to be foreign and cant eject them as a way to isolate it from the host body to prevent infection, sepsis etc.

Birds eggs are just eggs entombed with a shell of Calcium Carbonate so an egg with a shell could be originally just a egg that had been rejected but through a flaw of evolution an ancestor of birds was born with a way to naturally eject a rejected calcite covered egg ,which through luck happened to be a good evolutionary flaw and so the feature was adopted in all future generations as a way to incubate the young due to the natural protection a shell gave which then started a new evolutionary branch of creatures which finally ended up with birds.

PS Iím tired so excuse any typos


Michael
« Last Edit: 01/04/2006 00:56:11 by ukmicky »
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #9 on: 01/04/2006 02:15:10 »
Thinking a little about this, it occurred to me that the development of mineral shells on eggs must have developed alongside the development of the beak, because without the sharp beak, it would have been difficult to break through the hard shell, but with the beak, it must be more difficult to break out of a soft coated egg.



George
« Last Edit: 01/04/2006 02:42:33 by ukmicky »
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #10 on: 01/04/2006 02:22:21 »
quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian

Can anyone give an answer to this?

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.




These are not my words but I thought them apt to the original question:




-----------------------------------------


Fish lay eggs in the water. Those eggs are rather simple and water permeable with no hard casing. Amphibians developed from fish, and ventured onto the land. They could not lay hard shelled eggs but soft, fishlike eggs that would dry out on land. So they returned to the water to lay eggs.

A tetrapod from Cheese Bay offers some confirmation for a 30-year-old theory about how amniotes arose. "As soon as I saw the specimen of Casineria, I was terribly excited because here was a small form," says palaeontologist Robert L. Carroll of McGill University in Montreal. In 1970, Carroll proposed that amniotes evolved from a line of miniature amphibians, much smaller than brutes like Acanthostega.

http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc99/5_22_99/bob1.htm

Unlike many amphibians, most plethodontid salamanders lay their eggs on land and do not pass through a larval stage. Instead, the embryonic salamanders develop directly into an adult body form. At the heart of Carroll's theory lies the amniote egg, which has a series of membranes not present in the simpler eggs of frogs and salamanders.

The oldest amniotes currently known date from the Middle Pennsylvanian locality known as Joggins, in Nova Scotia (Carroll, 1964). The relationships of these fossils indicate that amniotes first diverged into two lines, one line (Synapsida) that culminated in living mammals, and another line (Sauropsida) that embraces all the living reptiles (including birds).

One Joggins fossil, the "protorothyridid" Hylonomus, appears to be a very early member of the line leading to Sauria (Crown-clade diapsids), the clade encompassing all living diapsids. This suggests that the more inclusive clade of which turtles (Testudines) are part (Anapsida) in most morphological phylogenies had diverged as well, even though its current record extends back only to the Lower Permian (Laurin & Reisz, 1995).

http://tolweb.org/tree?group=Amniota..._Vertebrat es

Early amniotes developed a calcified shell on the outer membrane of the egg. Their survival was better than those with soft shell eggs and vastly superior to the water permeable eggs of amphibians. So the first hard shell eggs (typical of chicken eggs) were in the Middle Carboniferous Period about 310 million to 301 million years ago. The reptilian egg was from the lower Permian, 290 million to 256 million years ago. We know that the reptiles who developed into Dinosaurs in the late Triassic laid hard shelled eggs. Some of these have been found and CAT scanned showing the dino embryo inside.

Birds apparently developed in the Jurassic Period of the Mesozoic from Therapod bipedal dinosaurs related to Velociraptors. That would have been sometime between 178-160 million years ago. A Jurassic Duck similar to modern ducks has been found in Late Jurassic deposits. We don't know exactly when chickens evolved but it is likely that it came about the same time as ducks and other birds of the Jurassic and early Cretaceous.

So hard shelled eggs date back to 310 million years ago, but birds did not evolve from raptor dinosaurs until about 170-160 million years ago.

Conclusion the Egg came before the Chicken, by 140 million years or so.

-------------------------------------


Thank you to  ' Amergin '...

As I said, these are not my words and so I am unable to respond directly to comments aimed at statements within it. I just thought it relevant to the question


Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 01/04/2006 02:24:28 by neilep »
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #11 on: 01/04/2006 02:44:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Thinking a little about this, it occurred to me that the development of mineral shells on eggs must have developed alongside the development of the beak, because without the sharp beak, it would have been difficult to break through the hard shell, but with the beak, it must be more difficult to break out of a soft coated egg.



George


Possible, its also possible that the shell started off very thin or the parents of the chick broke it through external measure's when they heard the chick making noise from within. (don't crocodile's sometimes help there young escape from their shells )
Its also possible that the beak was a lucky addition which came along before the egg shell or maybe it took many evolutionary changes before a chick in an egg born in a shell survived and on till that time all the babies which survived were born fully formed.

GEORGE Sorry i nearly edited yours rather than quote from it.



Michael
« Last Edit: 01/04/2006 03:03:19 by ukmicky »
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #12 on: 01/04/2006 03:10:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
GEORGE Sorry i nearly edited yours rather than quote from it.



Michael




It's horrible when you think you've done that isn't it ?

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #13 on: 01/04/2006 03:47:48 »
i was looking for my reply which i just posted and couldnt find it, i thought i was going mad until i scrolled up and found it added on to georges post. i had to do a quick un-edit:)and repost

Michael
« Last Edit: 01/04/2006 03:48:04 by ukmicky »
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #14 on: 01/04/2006 04:02:50 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

i was looking for my reply which i just posted and couldnt find it, i thought i was going mad until i scrolled up and found it added on to georges post. i had to do a quick un-edit:)and repost

Michael



Michael, I think it's high time we revealed that we are in fact another_someone ourselves !

In fact, it's just us two on the whole site ! :D




Take it to the extreme and a forum based website could be a schizophrenics Paradise !!.......or Bedlam !

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 01/04/2006 04:07:05 by neilep »
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #15 on: 01/04/2006 05:08:47 »
lol


Michael
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #16 on: 02/04/2006 09:32:03 »
The answer is neither

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
 

Offline ukmicky

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3011
    • View Profile
    • http://www.space-talk.com/
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #17 on: 02/04/2006 18:05:34 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher

The answer is neither

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"


elaborate

Michael
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #18 on: 02/04/2006 23:21:54 »
Long before an egg develops there has to be primary circulation. This applies to everything alive, so long before an egg or a chicken could begin the process of existing, circulation come first. Circulation is what breathes life into inanimate substances by providing the animation, so it is only right to state that a non-living physical force breathes life into all living things. And wherever the egg or the chicken originates from, it must have been conceived from the same physical force. For to have no circulation, life cannot exist and without life, we have no egg or chicken!

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
 

Offline Ophiolite

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #19 on: 03/04/2006 08:42:57 »
Amoeba experience primary circulation?

Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #20 on: 03/04/2006 09:47:15 »
indeed they do!

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
 

Offline JimBob

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6564
  • Thanked: 7 times
  • Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #21 on: 03/04/2006 13:38:12 »
So you are saying that cell resperation in a singled celled creature is the same as blood coursing though a fetus? Or are you calling upon a second, outside force to animate the egg?


The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #22 on: 04/04/2006 09:58:30 »
Indeed, and the same as the flow that drives the Atlantic Conveyor System, powering the Worldís Weather Systems. No matter how vast or small, the same non-living physical force animates the circulation. From a single cell to the multi-cellular structures of the living world as we know it. Oddly enough, there is reference to this in the Dead Sea Scrolls, stating that the flow of sap in the tree is the same as the flow of fluids through the human body.

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
 

Offline Hadrian

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2175
  • Scallywag
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #23 on: 04/04/2006 14:38:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher

The answer is neither


K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"[/size=1][/brown]



I have to totally agree with you. To me it is the universal force that links all life all energy. If there is a theory of everything  then it must have this at its core.

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline Amon

  • First timers
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #24 on: 25/04/2006 19:46:53 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

Thinking a little about this, it occurred to me that the development of mineral shells on eggs must have developed alongside the development of the beak, because without the sharp beak, it would have been difficult to break through the hard shell, but with the beak, it must be more difficult to break out of a soft coated egg.



George




Or you could also argue that the new beak of newborns killed every mother which kept their offspring in their whomb by ripping the uterus and only the mothers who would reject their chicks in an egg would survive and thrive! The answer is the beak, then the egg which gave the chicken!
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
« Reply #24 on: 25/04/2006 19:46:53 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums