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Author Topic: ?What now?  (Read 7435 times)

Offline CZARCAR

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« on: 26/06/2011 13:47:33 »
The now only exists thanx to Heisenberg uncertainty. THe past exists only as a snapshot & the future as a painting both of which lack H uncertainty?


 

Offline Airthumbs

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« Reply #1 on: 26/06/2011 22:35:33 »
Would I be right in saying that by the time our brain registers now it has become the past?  Therefore now only exists as a memory...............  :-\
 

Offline CZARCAR

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« Reply #2 on: 26/06/2011 22:37:44 »
Would I be right in saying that by the time our brain registers now it has become the past?  Therefore now only exists as a memory...............  :-\
that sounds correct, i thinx..........vvv
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #3 on: 27/06/2011 04:24:41 »
Now is gift.. that's why it is called the present.. Past is nothing but a memory.. So everything in your memory is past. And the future is a mystery.. Once you unravel that future it becomes the past..

Now we should all learn from Master Shifu, like the Dragon warrior.. Make everyday a gift.. So that Now will be the Present.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #4 on: 28/06/2011 09:09:17 »
You must also not forget that our personal nows are also parts of the past and future for other observers because what happens on the sun in our now really happened  about eight minutes ago in the sun's now and will happen in about four years time for observers on the nearest star.

It is also worth remembering that what happens on one side of a large star like Betleguese will take at least an hour to communicate to the other side and when the core of the star finally collapses to start a supernova it will probably be several hours before the explosion is visible at the surface because that involves the motion of matter and not just light.
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #5 on: 29/06/2011 05:32:27 »
My brain was damaged by your statement Soul Surfer..
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #6 on: 29/06/2011 07:19:01 »
Now is gift.. that's why it is called the present.. Past is nothing but a memory.. So everything in your memory is past. And the future is a mystery.. Once you unravel that future it becomes the past..

Now we should all learn from Master Shifu, like the Dragon warrior.. Make everyday a gift.. So that Now will be the Present.

Yes that sums up the psychological makeup rather well.

There is no measurement unless made in real time. We can however, only measure things which have happened in our past: the act of knowing that measurement is made in the present time. So we measure in present time, an event which happened in the past. Before that measurement, if it were a quantum system we where talking about, may have actually many past states. It's only until we make a measurement in the present, do we form the past in some way; by forming the past, we are essentially giving the past meaning within ourselves in the form of memory.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #7 on: 29/06/2011 07:23:08 »
Imagine it in this mathematical sense: Let the present time be denoted as t1, let the past time be t0 and let

t1=t1

t1 = t0 + [t1 - t0]

so effectively if we let D represent a time delay, then:

t1 = t0 + D
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #8 on: 29/06/2011 07:26:01 »
Mr. Data, you cannot really put NOW in an equation, for now cannot be put into a time frame, or if you put it in a timeframe, that frame would be moving at a constant speed. For example when I say "NOW" it will be past.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #9 on: 29/06/2011 07:28:38 »
Mr. Data, you cannot really put NOW in an equation, for now cannot be put into a time frame, or if you put it in a timeframe, that frame would be moving at a constant speed. For example when I say "NOW" it will be past.

Mathematics is abstract. It creates an abstract of what we are trying to describe.

You can put ''now'' into equations. Now is now, to me, and to everyone else, this is an asymptotic frame of time - the now is the present moment, and placing it into an equation is simply describing that phenomenon. As I said also, the now is a measurement made in the present, whilst the present measurement is one of the past.
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #10 on: 29/06/2011 07:48:34 »
so if we would force it into an equation, should it look like this?

(past + now) * (future - now)

for the "past" is being added by every "now" that passed, while the "future" is being subtracted by the "now" which is a constant.

Please correct my equation.
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #11 on: 29/06/2011 07:51:42 »
or should i put "now" as a fraction, since now is only a fraction of time?

how about:

future = future - now, where future is an infinite number.
past = past + now, where past is an unknown number.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #12 on: 29/06/2011 08:01:13 »
so if we would force it into an equation, should it look like this?

(past + now) * (future - now)

for the "past" is being added by every "now" that passed, while the "future" is being subtracted by the "now" which is a constant.

Please correct my equation.

Well, let's see shall we. Let us go back to my equations describing the ''now'':

t1=t1

t1 = t0 + [t1 - t0]

so effectively if we let D represent a time delay, then:

t1 = t0 + D

The past plus the now is really the same as saying the past plus a time delay, so replace that with t0 + D. The future (let us denote as t2) minus the present moment however,

 t2 - t1

If the future only makes sense when it unravels in the present, and as we have ascertained, the now is a measurement made in the present, whilst the present measurement is one of the past.

t2 - t1 = t0

I think... if I have done this correctly.
« Last Edit: 29/06/2011 08:05:59 by Mr. Data »
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #13 on: 29/06/2011 08:14:03 »
shouldn't you add an increment to now to make the equation as current as possible? for if we leave the increment to now, the answer to your equation would be a bit of a past.
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #14 on: 29/06/2011 08:18:04 »
how do you phrase an infinite incrementation to a certain value. that would probably be the key to calculating now if we are to put it into an equation or a formula.

thanks Mr. Data for bearing with me..
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #15 on: 29/06/2011 08:29:45 »
shouldn't you add an increment to now to make the equation as current as possible? for if we leave the increment to now, the answer to your equation would be a bit of a past.

You need to be more specific with me. I'm hard-wired but often slow :)

By increment, you mean by what exactly? I assume you mean a time as increasing number which is evaluated? An incremental step in time, is a change in time, so denote that as ▲t = t2-t1.

''for if we leave the increment to now, the answer to your equation would be a bit of a past.''

True. All measurements, are again, measured in the present, but that measurement is part of the past.

''how do you phrase an infinite incrementation to a certain value. that would probably be the key to calculating now if we are to put it into an equation or a formula.''

What did you have in mind? I am not entirely sure if I understand you correctly, but any infinity minus a finite number

t1 - ∞ = ∞

keep in mind, infinity is not a number.

Is this what you had in mind, or something else?
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #16 on: 29/06/2011 08:35:33 »
If you want to express a number which increases in time, then you can state that (A1(t)... A2(t)... Ai(t)) = increase of A as a function of time.
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #17 on: 29/06/2011 08:38:28 »
shouldn't you add an increment to now to make the equation as current as possible? for if we leave the increment to now, the answer to your equation would be a bit of a past.

You need to be more specific with me. I'm hard-wired but often slow :)

By increment, you mean by what exactly? I assume you mean a time as increasing number which is evaluated? An incremental step in time, is a change in time, so denote that as ▲t = t2-t1.

''for if we leave the increment to now, the answer to your equation would be a bit of a past.''

True. All measurements, are again, measured in the present, but that measurement is part of the past.

''how do you phrase an infinite incrementation to a certain value. that would probably be the key to calculating now if we are to put it into an equation or a formula.''

What did you have in mind? I am not entirely sure if I understand you correctly, but any infinity minus a finite number

t1 - ∞ = ∞

keep in mind, infinity is not a number.

Is this what you had in mind, or something else?

This is the one I am looking for. I'm sorry Mr. Data, I do not know how to type "8" sideways.

Thank you very much..
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #18 on: 29/06/2011 08:41:51 »
Are you sure ''now'', because we may end up regretting the ''past'' :)
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #19 on: 29/06/2011 08:50:43 »
ah forget it Mr. Data, it is "now" a thing of the "past". Let's move on to the "future".

 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #20 on: 29/06/2011 08:57:13 »
ah forget it Mr. Data, it is "now" a thing of the "past". Let's move on to the "future".



:P

''now'' we are making this complicated - if the ''past'' holds any precedence in the ''future'', I think maybe we should worry about the ''present''!
 

Offline Bill E Goat

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« Reply #21 on: 29/06/2011 09:20:02 »
I can't tell the past from the future. I think that's because I'm a sock puppet too.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #22 on: 29/06/2011 09:24:50 »
I can't tell the past from the future. I think that's because I'm a sock puppet too.

You can't tell the difference between two things which actually don't exist. The past and future, mr sock puppet, is I tell you, elements of a psychology, not the true nature of physics and relativity.
 

Offline Dr. Junix

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« Reply #23 on: 29/06/2011 09:49:26 »
I can't tell the past from the future. I think that's because I'm a sock puppet too.

You can't tell the difference between two things which actually don't exist. The past and future, mr sock puppet, is I tell you, elements of a psychology, not the true nature of physics and relativity.

Very well said, Mr. Data, but you have to admit that Physics and relativity are used to predict the "future" and learn the "past". Whereas psychology may in fact be the issue "NOW".
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #24 on: 29/06/2011 09:53:44 »
I can't tell the past from the future. I think that's because I'm a sock puppet too.

You can't tell the difference between two things which actually don't exist. The past and future, mr sock puppet, is I tell you, elements of a psychology, not the true nature of physics and relativity.

Very well said, Mr. Data, but you have to admit that Physics and relativity are used to predict the "future" and learn the "past". Whereas psychology may in fact be the issue "NOW".

There are many models of physics in general, which do rely on past and future states: This is very true, and lyes in the heart of probability fields and how they act on measurements, such as a wave function dictating the past and future, but a collapse is made in the present. As for General Relativity, things are a little more complicated than that. Einstein once said it best:

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the_distinction_between_past-present-and_future/184152.html

“The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion”

So if the psychological makeup of the brain decodes a past and future as a boundary to the present state, then it is us who are fooled by the true nature of time.
 

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« Reply #24 on: 29/06/2011 09:53:44 »

 

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