The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?  (Read 5874 times)

Offline Titanscape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« on: 15/04/2006 11:38:05 »
It has come to my attention and others too, that there are said to be, obscurely, "Evolutionary Imperatives". The sex drive and reproduction for example. Some say adultery should not be illegal. "It is just an evolutionary imperative, courts should go easy on it." It is quite an injustice adultery.

All sorts of things can be attributed to evolution, murder, adultery, rape. They're not innocent.

It can be argued that we have evolved the ability not to act out crimes too, example: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/05intersection/sextrade01.htm

People don't have to commit adultery.

Our ideals should have a place in evolution too. The damsel in distress, love, friendship, trust, honour, justice... to which murder, adultery and rape are chaos.

Adultery seems to be the least not good, the popular act, as from TV Pornography magazines and common errors of everyday life, so, seeing pretty women but no rings in miniskirts... easily provoked... fun, popular. But it is not ideal or fair and can be destructive to people and children and chaotic.

So what may you fellows think of evoltionary imperatives, justice, fun and ideals...

Titanscape
« Last Edit: 15/04/2006 11:39:04 by Titanscape »


 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #1 on: 15/04/2006 11:57:52 »
The problem with the notion of evolutionary imperatives is that evolution acts on many levels, and what might be to the evolutionary benefit of the individual may not be the same as that which is to the evolutionary benefit of the group.

Ofcourse, there are times when breaking the rules can itself be in the best interests of the group, but that is different from throwing away the rules.



George
 

sharkeyandgeorge

  • Guest
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #2 on: 15/04/2006 13:30:27 »
since when was adultery illegal its not a good thing but you cant be arrested for it in britain is it different in australia?

J.B.S Haldane on the perforated eardrums which were a consequence of his pressure experiments "the drum generally heals up; and if a hole remains in it, although one is somewhat deaf, one can blow tobacco smoke out of  the ear in question, which is a social accomplishment".
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #3 on: 15/04/2006 13:53:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by sharkeyandgeorge

since when was adultery illegal its not a good thing but you cant be arrested for it in britain is it different in australia?




Try it in some Muslim countries and you might find the law slightly different.

Then again, some Muslim countries (as well as some other countries) allow polygyny, which is disallowed is most Western countries.

The rules may vary, but the significant issue is not what the rules are, but that they are there at all, and whether you abide by the rules of your culture and society or not.



George
« Last Edit: 15/04/2006 14:32:58 by another_someone »
 

Offline Titanscape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #4 on: 15/04/2006 15:06:17 »
I heard that adultery is against US law and expected it was the similar in the west generally. That only provokes secrecy with the obnoxious friend (to do him/her that appalling favour as well) and makes it complex... That was why I thought there were no laws against adultery, but heard of it in the US.

For example, legally you can only have one wife. You can divorce based upon evidence of adultery.

I'll check:
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/05intersection/sextrade01.htm
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=al&vol=1011274&invol=2
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20031216.html

Titanscape
 

another_someone

  • Guest
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #5 on: 15/04/2006 16:38:32 »
Divorce on the basis of adultery is nothing new, but is not a part of criminal law, but of civil law something totally different.

The last of your three links is the most interesting because it does indicate that during the early part of the 20th century a number of States in the USA did implement criminal codes against adultery, but this is totally at variance with any tradition in English law.



George
 

Offline daveshorts

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Physics, Experiments
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chaosscience.org.uk
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #6 on: 15/04/2006 18:19:29 »
Going back to the original point.

I think calling them imperitives is a bit strong, I think something like evolutionary desires would make sense.

 In at tribe it may make good short term sense to rape and pillage, it probably isn't going to be so good when everyone else gets fed up with you and comes round one evening with lots of big pointy objects...

This means that we also have evolutionary desires to fit in with the group and make it function. These have gradually been codified into rules and laws, and it is no longer the rest of the tribe with pointy sticks but the police who do the extreme cases of enforcement.

Evolution has given us a load of desires that are often mutually contradictory on their own, even before you take into account other people's. Oh well it would be boring any other way.
« Last Edit: 15/04/2006 18:20:03 by daveshorts »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12656
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    • View Profile
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #7 on: 15/04/2006 22:47:38 »
Try reading "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. He offers some very interesting theories on the role of self-preservation/self-sacrifice in evolution.


Brand new forum at
http://beaverlandforum.d4a.com
More than just science
 

Offline Bishadi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #8 on: 21/04/2006 16:44:09 »
Adultry is a term of theology and is based on the harm or per se sin that is afflicted to the other partner.  Laws, norms etc.. using this are trying to honor the base intent to avoid harming a persons feelings.  Some suggest God, 'tells us' but like all theology the compassion between persons is the basis of the works.

Instinctively, procreation is something we purue as a charateristic of our genetic makeup.  

Most species pursue this 'need' to continue there existance by passing their seed and in our species most enjoy the experience.
« Last Edit: 21/04/2006 16:44:37 by Bishadi »
 

Offline Titanscape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #9 on: 22/04/2006 16:14:33 »
There is more than feelings, even though emotions do matter a lot. Life and honour, and friendship exist. Hypocrasy too. I would not like to grow up and find out that my mother had sex with another man and that dad wasn't my real dad...

Adultery effects the formation of young minds, household economies, friendship, ego, family honour, esteem, health and money matters. Also I as a Christian say it effects the spirit and salvation.

Titanscape
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 12656
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    • View Profile
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #10 on: 22/04/2006 18:29:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape


Adultery effects the formation of young minds, household economies, friendship, ego, family honour, esteem, health and money matters. Also I as a Christian say it effects the spirit and salvation.

Titanscape



Using your argument, it is the knowledge of the act that is a sin, not the act itself; if the act were not known, the consequences of which you speak would not occur. It therefore follows that your belief is that it is not the act of adultery that is a sin, but being found out.

So, if I may I presume to amend what you wrote - The knowledge of adultery affects...

 
quote:
People don't have to commit adultery.


That is very true; but so is the converse... people do not have to NOT commit adultery. If we were intended to be a monogamous species then being in love with someone would stop you finding others sexually attractive. That is plainly not the case or girlie mags would soon go out of business.

The fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, it is not the act of adultery that may hurt others; the harm only occurs when the wronged party becomes aware.





Brand new forum at
http://beaverlandforum.d4a.com
More than just science
 

Offline Ophiolite

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #11 on: 22/04/2006 18:40:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by DoctorBeaver
The fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, it is not the act of adultery that may hurt others; the harm only occurs when the wronged party becomes aware.
By analogy then, if I murder someone in their sleep, they are not harmed, since they are never aware of the act.
Would you agree?:)

Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.
 

Offline Titanscape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 785
    • View Profile
Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #12 on: 22/04/2006 21:00:42 »
Certainly the adulterer knows what they did. And so the friendship in their hidden inner self is broken or finished, for it was selfish and cruel,  more than friends with an enemy. Then there is love directed from an unknowing victim at a person and a person no longer fully known. Instead of a friend a hypocrit. Hidden motives.

They stay on false grounds to get something or don't stay. At best they mean well from guilt. Perhaps she is still with him for money or satisfaction, security, gratification but not really him. He loves her mask of pretense, albeit a thing one showing some of the real her...

The family honour is a lie. There is fool's paradise.

The friendship or marriage much more than friendship worth was weighed up and lost, as the same inner self she is, now generates love for the rival.

Who wants to be decieved?


Titanscape
« Last Edit: 22/04/2006 21:11:50 by Titanscape »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Evolutionary Imperatives And Justice?
« Reply #12 on: 22/04/2006 21:00:42 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums