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Author Topic: Are people born gay or they become gay after?  (Read 32796 times)

Offline Laith

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Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« on: 16/04/2006 05:15:31 »
i always wondered,
anyone has an answer?

Laith


 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #1 on: 16/04/2006 05:20:56 »
Me i personnally think its got nothing to do with how your brought up, i say its in your genes, a genetic error, and i say a genetic error because i dont believe their is any reason for gay people in the great scheme of things,survival of the species (evolution). So i say people are born with the genetic makeup for them to be gay.

(i'll get in trouble for that). :)

Michael
« Last Edit: 16/04/2006 05:31:55 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Laith

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #2 on: 16/04/2006 06:09:11 »
I think i agree with you, but is there any scientific proof?

Laith
« Last Edit: 16/04/2006 06:15:44 by Laith »
 

sharkeyandgeorge

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #3 on: 16/04/2006 09:54:46 »
I really dont know but i suspect that people are born gay because of the pain and distress that many go through trying to come to terms with it would you go through with all the fear of coming out to your parents if it was a choice? but if thats true then i wonder if other sexual proclivities are also ingrained from birth for example has anyone heard of chubby chasers that is people who seek out tremendously obese partners surly that  also results in less chance to breed.

J.B.S Haldane on the perforated eardrums which were a consequence of his pressure experiments "the drum generally heals up; and if a hole remains in it, although one is somewhat deaf, one can blow tobacco smoke out of  the ear in question, which is a social accomplishment".
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #4 on: 16/04/2006 11:38:32 »
Firstly, your genes can give you a strong predisposition to one sort of behaviour or another, but it is not regarded that they absolutely determine that behaviour.

The second thing is what do you mean by being gay?

You might argue that being gay is in fact defined by a predisposition and not by the behaviour itself, in which case you can suggest that it is defined by a persons genes, but to date it has not been possible to directly measure a person's gay gene, so you cannot say that person X has performed a homosexual act, but is not genetically gay, while person Y is genetically gay but has refrained from performing any homosexual acts.

We also know that social contexts will alter the likelihood that an individual will indulge in homosexual acts, but what can we read from this regarding the genetic predisposition of these individuals towards homosexuality?



George
« Last Edit: 16/04/2006 11:38:55 by another_someone »
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #5 on: 16/04/2006 12:43:34 »
Being gay does sound like a stupid evolutionary idea. I have heard a few reasons that it persists.

It isn't an inherited tendancy to like the same sex but men (or women) so the sisters of a gay bloke really like blokes and so have more reproductive success

Being bisexual may have advantages in forming stable friendships with people of your own sex, which will give you an advantage especially when young, so you are more reproductively sucessful later on. I have a feeling that bisexuality is more common than people think, just you then don't fall into either a gay or straight social group.

My mum has a theory that you then have some blokes that everyone trusts to look after the women while the men go off hunting, fighting or something else stereotypical.
 

Offline Ophiolite

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #6 on: 16/04/2006 14:24:16 »
Point 1: It appears that homosexuality may be neither genetic, nor strictly due to upbringing. The environment within the womb appears to be the principal factor.
This link discusses the role of hormones in pre-natal development  and post-natal behaviour. http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html

Point 2:Homosexuality is common amongst animals.

The following link discusses the book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. The site and the book have a clear agenda, but it does not detract from the facts. [I was especially intrigued to read that female long eared hedgehogs engage in oral sex. Must be something to do with the spines!]
http://www.vexen.co.uk/human/homosexuality.html

And here is an absolute classic:
A German zoo was planning to introduce male penguins into a group of female penguins because the female penguins seem to be attracted to one another. Homosexual rights groups are angry with the plan because they believe the zoo’s actions are trying to turn the penguins straight.
from - http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/02-16-05.asp


Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #7 on: 16/04/2006 16:20:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by Ophiolite

Point 1: It appears that homosexuality may be neither genetic, nor strictly due to upbringing. The environment within the womb appears to be the principal factor.
This link discusses the role of hormones in pre-natal development  and post-natal behaviour. http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html




Interesting, but not totally surprising, and nor does it either prove or disprove genetic influence, it merely demonstrates that whatever it is is substantially determined by the time of birth (substantially, because it also shows that testosterone levels during infancy still have an influence, and possibly even in adulthood – but the later it happens, the less complete the influence).

What it also focuses on is trying to explain why some men take on a female gender role, and why some women take on a male gender role; but in any homosexual relationship, there is one partner who takes on a gender role that is opposite to their biological sex, but there is also one partner in the relationship who retains the gender role that is consistent with their biological sex.  It seems to make no effort to explain the biological process by which someone retains the the gender of their biological sex, but seeks out a partner of their own sex rather than a partner of the opposite sex.

No surprise again, by it reaffirms the correlation between aggression and violence and gender and testosterone.  All of this has long lead me to suspect that the increasing intolerance of violence within modern society (by modern, I don't only mean over the last generation or two, since it is a trend that can be observed over many centuries) has not itself contributed to the feminisation of society, and possibly to an increase of male homosexuality (although the issue of female homosexuality is a separate matter which may or may not be related, but if it is related, would have to be so through some very indirect mechanism), as well as possibly associated with the documented trend in lower sperm counts in men.





George
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #8 on: 16/04/2006 19:22:28 »
This subject usally inspire's non cordial behaviour but so far everybody's been good lets hope it stays that way:)
______________________________________________

Its a chemical imbalance caused by our genes , in other words straight people bodies make and release and use the right levels and kinds of chemicals which are require for normal life where men are attracted to women and women are attracted to men.
 
Our genes determine everything about us and have first say on everything which isn't controllable by our thought processes,  they determine when and what chemicals  are naturally released into our blood streams and what levels are required for them to affect us. We may be able to change how strongly some of them affect our lives, the level of our emotions etc through our thought processes but ultimately they have the first say on what we basically are to start with.

What i would like to know is when why or how does something become inheritable through our genes.
Also could being gay become or be already an inherited condition as its only usually when something becomes dominant that we notice its existence.



Michael
« Last Edit: 16/04/2006 19:26:46 by ukmicky »
 

Offline rosy

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #9 on: 16/04/2006 20:34:22 »
Right. Whole can of worms here.
quote:
Our genes determine everything about us and have first say on everything which isn't controllable by our thought processes,

This isn't strictly true. Our genes control what proteins we make (and also what other kinds of RNA we make but I'll ignore that as being the same kind of argument as with proteins), which is pretty important in general terms since it's the proteins that provide much of our cell structure and also it's the proteins that catalyse cell reactions and so forth. But there's a lot more to it than that. Which proteins we actually synthesise from the genes which give us the code for them is controlled partly by proteins we've already synthesised but also to a large extent, especially but not exclusively in early developement by chemical and other triggers from the external environment (see references to testosterone exposure in the womb, above).
 
quote:
What i would like to know is when why or how does something become inheritable through our genes.

Uggh!
Um, the implication I get on reading this sentence is that a pre-existing characteristic "becomes" encoded in the genes. Which may or may not be what you meant but is decidedly misleading.
What really goes on is that random mutations in the genes (that is, if the wrong nucleic acid gets put in, or one is added or lost when the cell DNA copies itself as it divides) may mean that a different amino acid is incorporated into a protein and the nature of the protein is changed (how it folds, how active it is, what it does...) or indeed rendered entirely inactive, or equally it may change some non-coding DNA which might influence whether a protein is translated (synthesised in the first instance), or how much of it, or when, by altering how other molecules bind to the DNA to promote or prevent transcription/translation.
Any such mutation may have some effect on how the cells and so the whole organism functions. Some conditions/characteristics (some types of haemophilia, cystic fibrosis, some predispositions to cancers, some hair colours) result from a single mutation, others from the cumultive effect of a number of different mutations.
Some genetic effects are only observed in the presence of certain external conditions (propensity to tan/burn in sunlight).
There are not all that many wholly genetically determined effects. I'd be astonished if soemthing as big and messy as sexuality were one of them.

quote:
Also could being gay become or be already an inherited condition as its only usually when something becomes dominant that we notice its existence.

Become? No.
Already be? Possibly... it's probably influenced by genetic factors, and environmental factors, and social factors. For one thing if I bet that there are a lot of "straight" people out there, and probably gay people too, who would be more accurately defined as bi.. but it's easier to be one thing or the other, bi people can have a tough time in both communities. Besides which if you've been brought up to expect to find one sex attractive, provided you actually do there's often no reason to look beyond that.
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #10 on: 16/04/2006 20:40:46 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

What i would like to know is when why or how does something become inheritable through our genes.
Also could being gay become or be already an inherited condition as its only usually when something becomes dominant that we notice its existence.



As Ariel  highlighted in her reference to the Hardy Weinberg Equilibrium, all genetic traits that exist in a population will be expressed to some degree or another, and dominance and recessive only effects the proportion of the population that manifest the trait (which will also be influenced by environmental stresses and upon opportunities available to the population).

At present, most of the research into homosexuality seems to revolve around testosterone, which also has relevance to such behavioural traits as IQ and aggression (as well as the ability to sing in birds – I was wondering if there was any comparison between human IQ and singing ability in birds?).  We know that there is a spread levels of IQ and aggressive behaviour throughout the population, and thus it clearly implies there is a broad spectrum of levels of testosterone triggered character traits in other ways, so why not in sexual orientation.

As with eye colour, so with hormone levels, I would expect that such complexity and variability would probably actually be under the control of multiple genes rather than a single gene.  At very least, the fact that testosterone levels vary throughout life (not only after birth, but more importantly, before birth), and so I could well imagine there are genetic triggers that not only control how much testosterone a person gets, but at which point in their development might be switched on or off.

I believe that one of the differences between humans and other primates is that humans develop slower, and retain more juvenile characteristics far later into life than most other primates.

http://www.cliftonunitarian.com/toddstalks/humanbeing.htm
quote:

In case this hasn’t already become far too complicated, I wish to now introduce yet another important concept in this discussion, the process science refers to as neoteny. Neoteny refers to the tendency for the adult form of a species to retain juvenile characteristics. It comes from the Latin words neo, meaning "new," and teinein, meaning "to extend." Neoteny, then, means to extend newness, or extend youth, and, trust me, there are no creatures on earth more juvenile than human beings. Actually there are instances of other neotenous animals, like salamanders capable of sexually reproducing while still in the larval state; flightless birds resembling giant chicks; and domesticated dogs which have been bred from wolves to retain puppy like characteristics in order to live more safely among humans. But human beings are by far the most neotenous creatures on earth. Human beings, for instance, mature far slower than any other primate. Stephen Jay Gould say we are also born premature, especially in comparison to other primates. "If women gave birth when they ‘should,’" he writes, "after a gestation of about a year and a half—our babies would share standard precocial features with other primates."11  Humans are born still in embryo, retaining soft embryonic bones, including the "soft spot" on the skull; we retain flat faces and large heads throughout our lives, resembling newborn primates, rather than their adult forms with low brows and long faces; we also have a late eruption of teeth, a delicate skeleton and our spine remains connected to the base of our skulls, as it does in the fetal state of all primates, but in non humans moves to the top of the skull during fetal maturation.
As neotenous creatures we are vastly inferior to all other primates with the exception of our intelligence. We remain nearly completely bald so that we can’t survive harsh temperatures without clothing, we are physically weak and awkward creatures that have difficulty climbing and lifting or own weight, and we don’t have opposable toes like our primate relatives. Clearly, the only advantage to being born premature and maintaining juvenile characteristics is our great brain size, resulting from our continued maturation outside the womb. If we weren’t born premature, both our heads and our brains would have to remain small. As Gould points out, "our brains continue to grow at rapid, fetal rates after birth."12  He points out, for instance, that the human brain is only 23% of its final size at birth, as compared to 65% in macaques and 40.5% in chimpanzees. Gorillas achieve 70% of their total brain size during their first year of life. Human beings don’t achieve this amount until their third year.



How (if at all)  neoteny influences gender orientation, I could not say, excepting that it must effect the process of sexual maturation.

I can well imagine that modern humans are to some extent increasing the evolutionary progress of   neoteny as juveniles develop in ever safer environments, and thus it makes sense for them to gain ever greater benefit of the time available for maturation.



George
« Last Edit: 16/04/2006 22:00:59 by another_someone »
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #11 on: 18/04/2006 22:56:04 »
Almost no behavioral characteristics can be atributed to 100% genetics or 100% environment.  Most (if not all) behaviors stem from a genetic predisposition of some sort, but are still heavily influenced by one's environment.  There have been attempts to find what genes are involged in determining sexuality.  There was a paper published (i believe in the late 90's) that used population genetics to map homosexuality to the XQ28 region of the genome.  This paper was mostly refuted a few years later, but there have been other studies since then.  One of the biggest areas of reserach in the drosophila field (hehe, taht's me) of recent years has been into behavioral issues.  one of the very first findings to come out of this field was the gene "fruitless" which seems to be the major determiner of sexuality in flies.  Altering this gene can cause flies of either gender to reverse their sexuality (or "be gay").  If you serach on the web, you can find some really cool videos of males flies following eachother aroung in a long single file line trying to court one another.  its kind of cool.  
however, as I said above, humans are much more influenced by enviironmental factors than lower organisms are, so to postulate that there is one (or even multiple) gene(s) in our genome that deterimne our sexuality 100% is quite ludicrous.

Are YOUR mice nude? ;)
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #12 on: 19/04/2006 14:38:49 »
Are people born heterosexual or does the come after….or before… or maybe in between….   [}:)]:D[}:)]

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline elegantlywasted

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #13 on: 19/04/2006 15:38:49 »
is it possible that it is a chemical imbalance in the brain?

-Meg
 

Offline Hadrian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #14 on: 19/04/2006 16:13:31 »
That would suggest that is an illness that needs a cure. What excites you excites you. It the human condition to be excited. For the survival of the species we had better make certain we remain capable of creating the next generation and being heterosexual will add to this possibility. But what turns you is what make you YOU! It’s your personality, it part of your make up that defines you. Of course people are scared of things that don’t conform to there view of the world. A lot of people and societies want everyone to conform to a standard set of normal behaviour. They try to push and pull individuals into boxes that they don’t fit into. It only causes pain and suffering. We end up lousing sight of what matters most in all this and that is to my thinking, love between consenting people. Not gender or sexuality but love. Nobody says its wrong for two men or women to love each other. Problems only surface when we start thinking about what they may be getting up to. It only a few years ago when it was legal for men to beat there wives in many so called civilised countries yet you could be imprisoned for having sex with a same sex partner that you loved and cherished.  I prefer to worry about how people are treating one another rather then there sexuality.  If you guy or heterosexual or bisexual enjoy it, be safe and above all else love one another.  

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.
 

Offline elegantlywasted

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #15 on: 19/04/2006 21:09:39 »
cheers!

-Meg
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #16 on: 19/04/2006 21:36:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian
That would suggest that is an illness that needs a cure. What excites you excites you. It the human condition to be excited.



How does that work out when you start talking about paedophilia?

Remember that 200 years ago, having sexual relations with a 14 y.o. Girl was legal, but sodomy was illegal (this is still the case in some countries in the world).

BTW, I do realise that sodomy does not exactly correlate with homosexuality; but homosexuality was an idea invented in Victorian times, and prior to that time, the only basis in which a homosexual male (or in fact a heterosexual male) could be regarded as breaking the law was through committing sodomy.



George
« Last Edit: 19/04/2006 21:47:57 by another_someone »
 

Offline elegantlywasted

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #17 on: 19/04/2006 23:06:13 »
Personally, I feel that labels (gay, straigt, bi, whatever) are disgusting. We should be able to live in a society where we are free to love and have relations with whomever we chose (as long as it is consenting, with the exception of children). Although I don't believe that will ever happen in my lifetime, or even my childrens for that matter. Especially with the likes of Mr Bush in power.

 
quote:
BTW, I do realise that sodomy does not exactly correlate with homosexuality; but homosexuality was an idea invented in Victorian times, and prior to that time, the only basis in which a homosexual male (or in fact a heterosexual male) could be regarded as breaking the law was through committing sodomy.


The government has no place in someone's bedroom, but even in Canada they do. Under the Canadian criminal code it is illegal to commit sodomy in a public place, which constitutes as more than 2 people, so threesomes are out.

-Meg
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #18 on: 19/04/2006 23:27:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by elegantlywasted

Personally, I feel that labels (gay, straigt, bi, whatever) are disgusting. We should be able to live in a society where we are free to love and have relations with whomever we chose (as long as it is consenting, with the exception of children). Although I don't believe that will ever happen in my lifetime, or even my childrens for that matter. Especially with the likes of Mr Bush in power.




By instinct, I would agree with you, excepting that there will always be the question as to what constitutes a child (i.e. at what age may a young person be considered competent enough to have a say in their own life – is it 8, 11, 16, 18, 21, 25, 35, ...).

Incidentally, while we are down this road, what about adult incestuous relationships?

The reality is that society has always felt the need to manage sexual activity within its own domain, just as most societies have food taboos (whether they are enshrined in formal law, or merely by custom).

Maybe it is because sex is by its very nature an issue bound up in emotion, that people get very emotionally hung up about what is rightful sex and what is wrongful sex.



George
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #19 on: 19/04/2006 23:37:03 »
while I have ABSOLUTLY no moral qualms with homosexuality, and I am a HUGE supporter of gay rights from a societal stand point, this is a SCIENTIFIC discussion, and from an evolutionary standpoint, being srtictly homosexual IS a disadventageous trait.  so as ugly and vugar and policically incorrect as it may sound, what you said about homosexuality being a "disease" is somewhat true FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT.

Are YOUR mice nude? ;)
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #20 on: 19/04/2006 23:42:27 »
quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer

while I have ABSOLUTLY no moral qualms with homosexuality, and I am a HUGE supporter of gay rights from a societal stand point, this is a SCIENTIFIC discussion, and from an evolutionary standpoint, being srtictly homosexual IS a disadventageous trait.  so as ugly and vugar and policically incorrect as it may sound, what you said about homosexuality being a "disease" is somewhat true FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT.




Is it?

Are worker bees, who for the most part will never reproduce, suffering from a disease  FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT?



George
 

Offline Ottehg Star

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #21 on: 20/04/2006 00:05:09 »
I think this question has no place in science forum. The descision to be gay isnt in your genes and is highly dependent on environmental factors. Is another one of those things that is created by a series of electrical impulses in that mushy thing called our brains. Choice is something you cant explain or recreate, computors can make informed decisions, humans can make a choice and if we could ever explain how people make choices then we would be one step closer to creating authentic artificial inteligence. Which then poses the question, Could computors evolve to be gay???  Answer that one. go on just try it, I dares ya........
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #22 on: 20/04/2006 00:48:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by Ottehg Star

I think this question has no place in science forum.



Why not – are not studies such as that undertaken by Kinsey in the 1940's science?

quote:

 The descision to be gay isnt in your genes and is highly dependent on environmental factors.



Again, this must depend upon what you mean by 'gay'?

Clearly, the decision to undertake a specific sexual act with a specific person who happens to be of the same biological sex as yourself is of itself a concious and deliberate action, and one that cannot be determined by genetic investigation.

On the other hand, the innate tendency to be attracted to someone of the same biological sex as yourself almost certainly has some genetic component.

quote:

 Is another one of those things that is created by a series of electrical impulses in that mushy thing called our brains. Choice is something you cant explain or recreate,



Human choice, in a specific instance, cannot be predicted.  On the other hand, a predisposition towards a given choice, something that will manifest itself when large population sizes are investigated, is something that can be predetermined.

quote:

Which then poses the question, Could computors evolve to be gay???  Answer that one. go on just try it, I dares ya........



Can computer have sex?  Can you sex a computer – are there male and female computers?



George
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #23 on: 20/04/2006 01:07:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer

while I have ABSOLUTELY no moral qualms with homosexuality, and I am a HUGE supporter of gay rights from a societal stand point, this is a SCIENTIFIC discussion, and from an evolutionary standpoint, being strictly homosexual IS a disadvantageous trait.  so as ugly and vulgar and politically incorrect as it may sound, what you said about homosexuality being a "disease" is somewhat true FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT.




Is it?

Are worker bees, who for the most part will never reproduce, suffering from a disease  FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT?



Ggeorge


No they are just sexually immature females.

Michael
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #24 on: 20/04/2006 02:53:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

quote:
Originally posted by another_someone
Are worker bees, who for the most part will never reproduce, suffering from a disease  FROM A BIOLOGICAL STANDPOINT?


No they are just sexually immature females.



Not immature – infertile – not the same thing (a sterile woman is not a child).



George
 

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
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