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Author Topic: Are people born gay or they become gay after?  (Read 32890 times)

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #25 on: 20/04/2006 03:09:06 »
infertile due to them being sexually immature :)
 

a sexually immature girl of say 2 years isn't fertile and she  wont become fertile until she reaches the point or is near the point of sexual maturity


Michael
« Last Edit: 20/04/2006 03:36:36 by ukmicky »
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #26 on: 20/04/2006 03:54:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky

infertile due to them being sexually immature :)
 

a sexually immature girl of say 2 years isn't fertile and she  wont become fertile until she reaches the point or is near the point of sexual maturity


Michael



Buy worker bees can never become queen bees, although they can become laying worker bees, but only in the absence of a queen.  A worker may, or may not, become a laying worker at some future time (laying only drones), but this is not a sign of chronological age.

But the point is, for all practical purposes, a pure homosexual (i.e someone who only practices sexual activity with their own biological sex) can also be thought of, for practical purposes, as being infertile.  It was this aspect of homosexuality that I understood Justin (MayoFlyFarmer) to refer to as being technically a disease (i.e. that they are unable to reproduce).  In that respect, they are no different to worker bees who, within the social context in which they exist, are unable to reproduce.



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Offline parsley

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #27 on: 21/04/2006 16:37:52 »
One thing that I noticed reading this topic, especially some of the earlier posts, is the negative attitude towards gays. Talking of it as a disease, in a negative way does give the impression that it is thought of to be 'wrong'. I have several gay friends, a couple of whom were as straight as it gets, until they fell in love with people the same sex as themselves. I object to this negativity towards gayness.
Also, how can it be genetic, if for genes to be passed on, you have to reproduce, and the majority of gay people do not do this (for obvious reasons)? Is it 'genetic' in the same way one inherits an ability for music, or maths, or being good with words? Almost like a gene that is there if you encourage it to be there?

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Offline Bishadi

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #28 on: 21/04/2006 17:08:50 »
Sorry but I disagree Parsley.

There are always examples of genetic flaws like 2 head on a snake but are sexual desires between gays genetic?  No!  Because facts would show that those tree lines would not exist since they cannot reproduce among their group.

Homosexuality is described in many forms with examples ranging from monkeys to dolphins but there are straight answers for the stresses that cause the events.

In our species there are a few examples of individuals that have chromosome issues but the ratio does not warrant normal.  It represents unique and special attention.

The perversions of our species and the unabated desires of the group called homosexual is not of quality progression of the species.  Allowing the open acceptance of this individual desires will set the tone for further attrition.   As children develop with knowledge of the possibility, exploration becomes the cause of the developing snowball and not of genetics or physiological need but of individual desires.  In fact to look at ratios a huge percentage of homosexual persons have had a bad sexual experience at a young age.  This ratio will far exceed the ration of heterosexuals to homosexuals by a huge margin which reflects a need to suppress the acceptance as normal.

Nothing will ever support that 2 same sex human partners are sharing their bodies for anything other then personal desires.    Love does not have to include sex and no where is sex among same sex partner a physical need without the specific personal desire.

It is basically a selfish pursuit and once one has been able to overcome the inhibitions there is nothing more but to pursue the fairness since to them it makes perfect sense as it is the pinnacle of their expression.
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #29 on: 21/04/2006 18:09:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by parsley

One thing that I noticed reading this topic, especially some of the earlier posts, is the negative attitude towards gays. Talking of it as a disease, in a negative way does give the impression that it is thought of to be 'wrong'.



Until the last post by Bishadi, I don't think I have seen a single post that could be considered negative.

Justin suggested that from, a very narrow technical perspective, it might be regarded as a disease; but that was not in any socially judgemental sense.

quote:

I object to this negativity towards gayness.



As I said, up until the post by Bishadi, the discussion was strictly technical, and there was no judgemental aspect to it.

quote:

Also, how can it be genetic, if for genes to be passed on, you have to reproduce, and the majority of gay people do not do this (for obvious reasons)? Is it 'genetic' in the same way one inherits an ability for music, or maths, or being good with words? Almost like a gene that is there if you encourage it to be there?



Even genes that have fatal outcomes, like haemophilia, are capable of surviving within the species.

The easiest way for such a gene to survive is either if it is recessive, and so remains dormant except when an individual happens to have two of the same gene (or, if the gene is on the X chromosome, as with  haemophilia, it will only effect males, but can be inherited down the female line).

The other way it can survive is if it is not a single gene, but an interaction between several genes (such as with eye colour), and so the inheritance of any single gene will not cause homosexuality, but when someone inherits several genes that can interact in a certain way, they may develop homosexual tendencies.

There are also more complex genetic relationships, such as with thalassemia, where inheriting a single gene does not have a serious negative effect, but can have a beneficial effect; whereas inheriting two similar genes can have a deleterious effect.

From what I understand, there does appear to be some evidence that, not only is the tendency to homosexuality inheritable, but can actually be accompanied by certain advantages.  There seem to be certain skill sets that appear to be more prevalent amongst homosexuals (as well as a reduced tendency to aggression); and there is some evidence that women born into families with a high proportion of homosexuals tend to have more children, and thus offsetting any disadvantage that the lack of children on the part of the menfolk within the family might have.

As you say, the gene can only provide a tendency; and like the tendency to be good at maths or music, it will only manifest its potential in certain social environments.




George
 

Offline gecko

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #30 on: 22/04/2006 01:01:22 »
i just kind of skimmed this cause im in a hurry, so sorry if someone already said this..

has anyone heard of the tendency to be homsexual attributed to an instinct for controlling the population? more homosexuals= less breeding; and a thinning or stabilization of the herd. im not sure where i picked this up and wether it has any creedence, but it would make alot of sense.

some of you are playing ethics with science. you equate "whats best for the continuation of the species" with correct. it is true that homosexuality is argueably not best for propogating future generations, however, many of our common practices arent, as well; many illegal practices are!

coming from that darwinian standpoint, killing other able-bodies males and their children, to protect the success and propogation of MY genetic material, is ok. but this is not ok, just as homosexuality is not wrong or some sort of regressive genetic mutation just because it may not be in line with the drive to pass on genes.

the wants and desires of a single person dont HAVe to be in line with evolutionary wants and desires, and neither one is unnatural; they both exist and always have.
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #31 on: 22/04/2006 01:44:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko
has anyone heard of the tendency to be homsexual attributed to an instinct for controlling the population? more homosexuals= less breeding; and a thinning or stabilization of the herd. im not sure where i picked this up and wether it has any creedence, but it would make alot of sense.



Not sure if I have seen that officially, but it is something that I have wondered about – although I suspect it is a little more complex than simply a matter of thinning the population – there is no obvious direct benefit of thinning the population as such.

The two main pre-modern civilisations where homosexuality was common are ancient Greece, and Japan; and both of these territories had sever population pressures (which, in the case of Greece, lead to the creation of its overseas colonies as a way of dumping its excess population).

As I said, I cannot see that in a situation where overpopulation occurs, that deliberate reduction of population is a logical benefit to the individual families, since even if there is mass starvation, it is logical that the greater the number of children you have, then the greater the likelihood that some of them will survive.

On the other hand, a more complex and subtle picture is that while it may not be of benefit to an individual, and their direct offspring, if the fail to reproduce; it may be of general benefit to a family if, when that family is under stress, rather than every member of that family having children, that a few members of the family have children, and all of the spare adults (those who have not reared their own children, but nonetheless are related to the children that have been born) the pool their efforts to maximise the likelihood of survival for those children who were born into the extended family.




George
« Last Edit: 22/04/2006 01:45:48 by another_someone »
 

Offline fm47

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #32 on: 25/04/2006 09:17:16 »
I havn't read all the posts, but I definitly think that being gay is NOT a genetic error, but a psycological behavior that is developed over time.

The Spartans, fearsome warriors of the ancient civilizations, recordingly encouraged their soldiers to have homosexual intercourse to increase the bonding between soldiers.

This raises questions as to what is considered "gay"?
Is the ability to identify attractive attributes of the same sex considered gay?

I've always been able to tell when another guy is good looking.  In fact, makes me damn jeaous sometimes.  Though I am able to see that he's good looking (most guys are just homophobic about it or are just jealous and wont get over it), but I am not sexually attracted to him.

"We're all gay, it's just to what extent" - Ron White, Comedian.

Is being fashionable gay?  Is the ability to match colors brilliantly and speak sweet and softly gay?

You can look at it in a way of Nature, of religion, and in humanity itself.
Nature intends reproduction to ensure the survival of a species.
Religions believe that marriage and sex should be between Man and Woman.
Humanity believes it's disgusting, abnormal, strange, and a threat to children's minds.
Humanity also believes that no one should be able to tell you who you can love and who you can't.

I suddenly realized I'm too tired for this and much to distracted AND have a paper due tomorrow, so I'll leave this as is.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #33 on: 26/04/2006 16:35:12 »
In my humble opinion (grovel grovel whine whine ! :)) I think gays are just as normal as heterosexuals are.

I'm not gay but do know quite a few gay people , in fact , probably more than I do straight !!...probably because gay people are really nice ! :)

It is my considered opinion that it's not a genetic flaw but a natural predisposition, as natural as anybody else feels towards any other person sexually. It is a perfectly normal and natural feeling,neither learned or forced. Though I do believe heterosexuals can be ' turned ' under the right circumstances...prison for instance....and probably the same applies to gays too under certain cirumstances.

 In fact, I think life would be a lot better if it was  a gay old world !! :)....instead of going to war...we could all go shopping instead !! :D..(sorry for the silly stereotyping..which of course is not accurate)

..I'd even go so far to say that we're all gay !!..except that some of us have proclivities towards the opposite sex...however, it is commonly known that at some point everybody (99%) has encountered a situation where they have been curious about same sex relationships/encounters etc.

Ask a gay person and , rightly so, they will say that they have always been gay, despite some torment as they discover the real selves...it's not a matter of choice...it's a natural instinct and I think gays would be offended at the hint that they have something wrong with them...in fact I'm offended and I'm straight.....

There are cases where gays feel completely torn though, they have been brought up in a strict religious household and despite their natural inclinations have been brainwashed that they are sinning. Such turmoil I would hate to experience, damned if you do...damned if you dont.....

...and that's what I have to say about that.

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another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #34 on: 27/04/2006 01:35:04 »
The notion of normality is a distraction.

Having measles is normal; committing murder is normal.

This is not to say that being gay is equivalent to having measles, or committing murder; only that claiming that it is normal tells us very little about what it is, except that it wasn't invented by scientists or engineers.

There is a slightly related question, is autism 'normal', and is 'autism' a disease.

There are some autistics (particularly those with the milder form of Asperger's) who argue that they are normal, merely different, and misunderstood by everyone else in society.  There are also people with inherited disabilities (such as inherited deafness), who would argue that they are 'normal', and it is just that the rest of the world makes assumptions of them that are inappropriate to their capabilities and preferences.

At what point do you treat an abnormality as a disease, and at what point do you simply allow people to be different?

Clearly, where a person is incapable of functioning within society, then maybe society needs to address that – but even then, there are times when one has to ask whether society needs to change the person to fit society, or change society to fit the person.

There are also those who regard having misaligned teeth, or the wrong sized breasts or wrong nose, as serious medical conditions.  Who knows, given that a pretty girl is supposed to be able to earn more than an ugly one, and the difficulty for graduates in finding appropriate jobs, maybe money invested in cosmetic surgery is a better investment that money spent in university education?

Clearly, society cannot simultaneously adjust to fit every possible variation of human being, but exactly which variant it is able to allow, and which variant it must medicate in order to fit closer to the arbitrary norm, is itself a substantially arbitrary (if necessary) judgement.



George
« Last Edit: 27/04/2006 02:00:33 by another_someone »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #35 on: 27/04/2006 03:09:18 »
Within the context of this topic, I think it's agreeable to say that the feelings of sexual attraction towards the same sex for a gay, is the same experience for a heterosexual attracted to the opposite sex, the only difference being the gender. In this case I would say that a gays sexual attraction feels normal to them akin to non gays......

......Of course Sexual orientation goes beyond sex. It is about relating to another person on many levels, there are gay people who don't have sex at all...just like any other sexual persuasion.

However, I am finding it difficult to comply with your opinion that murder is normal. I believe I may understand why I think you may state that and so that is why I am asking if you could elaborate please ? ...Stating Murder Is Normal is quite a citation....(hmm..perhaps another thread beckons)...I just need to understand the context.

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another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #36 on: 27/04/2006 05:25:32 »
This is a delicate subject, and given the state of normalcy that I am presently feeling, I should be careful lest I express myself in a way that might be misread - but here goes, and i hope it doesn't end up too stupid.

quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Within the context of this topic, I think it's agreeable to say that the feelings of sexual attraction towards the same sex for a gay, is the same experience for a heterosexual attracted to the opposite sex, the only difference being the gender. In this case I would say that a gays sexual attraction feels normal to them akin to non gays......



But, is 'feels normal' the same as 'is normal'?

One of the problems with many addicts (e.g. alcoholics) is that they feel 'normal'.

This is not to say whether they are or are not 'normal', only to ask whether self evaluation is the best way of determining normalcy?

quote:

However, I am finding it difficult to comply with your opinion that murder is normal. I believe I may understand why I think you may state that and so that is why I am asking if you could elaborate please ? ...Stating Murder Is Normal is quite a citation....(hmm..perhaps another thread beckons)...I just need to understand the context.



It is 'normal' in two ways.

Firstly, all that a human being does is normal, because it is normal for a human being to do that.  It may be argued that it is not how an average human being might react; but by that token, since homosexuality supposedly effects only about 10% of the population, thus they themselves are deviant from the average (mean, modal, or median).

Secondly, that a human being should kill another human being (or that any animal should kill another animal) is normal (however unpleasant or unfortunate, wars are normal).  It is the laws that prohibit certain types of killing that are by their nature artificial.

Ofcourse, it is perfectly reasonable to argue that not all that is normal is acceptable within our society, but that is not to contradict the normality of it.



George
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #37 on: 27/04/2006 06:47:08 »
George, I hope you are OK....



I don't see how self evaluation can determine normalcy without comparable protracted historical data of the very thing that one is self evaluating and that the ability to understand the results has remained constant.

I do understand your reasoning. When you look at the statistics and percentages  (using your figure of 10%) regarding sexuality then it is clear that homosexuality is in a minority.  But a minority does not preclude normalcy...and I can see how this can apply to the act of murder....though calling it ' normal' just does not sit well....with me anyway IMO.

I would expect the differences between genders to be far and wide also. It seems apparent to me that the female of the species finds same sex relationship far more acceptable than males. Women are far more comfortable to accept a gay embrace than a man and I am sure this would be reflected in the data.




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another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #38 on: 27/04/2006 12:40:07 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
I don't see how self evaluation can determine normalcy without comparable protracted historical data of the very thing that one is self evaluating and that the ability to understand the results has remained constant.



It rather depends upon what one regards as 'normal'.

Normal is a relative notion.  What may be normal for a particular person, may not necessarily be regarded as normal for the species as a whole, or you could argue that anything that is normal for any member of the species must be regarded as normal for all of the species.


quote:

I would expect the differences between genders to be far and wide also. It seems apparent to me that the female of the species finds same sex relationship far more acceptable than males. Women are far more comfortable to accept a gay embrace than a man and I am sure this would be reflected in the data.



What do you mean by a 'gay embrace'?

Women, in western cultures, do embrace more than men – but in other cultures, that may vary.  In Arab cultures, men will kiss and embrace, just as women might in the West, but there is nothing sexual in it (any more than one should interpret a parent kissing and embracing their child as being a sexual act).

This is ofcourse one of the problems with providing an objective definition of what homosexuality is.  Do you define homosexuality by a specific set of acts (and if one includes same gender kissing amongst those acts, you will offend a great number of Arabs)?

Up until the Victorian era, there was no such notion as homosexuality.  There was the crime of sodomy (which most modern cultures on any of the continents would consider a sexual act) , but this was as much a crime when applied to male/female relationships.  Even the Victorians had a problem with defining female homosexuality (this was made the more complex by the fact that female masturbation was seen as a medical procedure that was undertaken by a physician to relieve 'hysteria', and the dildo was a medical tool; and was not seen as seen as a sexual act).

It is clear that looking through much renaissance art that there was a clear sensual pleasure taken in the young male body, although it is not at all clear whether they would have regarded this as a sexual desire or not.  Were they homosexual paedophiles, or just people who appreciated the sensual beauty of the young male form?

This goes back to the question of who judges whether human behaviour falls into one category or another:  the individual who commits the act? The society in which that individual belongs? Or does each society simply apply its own labels to the act even if they disagree with the labels either that person or their peers might apply to the act?



George
« Last Edit: 27/04/2006 13:16:29 by another_someone »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #39 on: 27/04/2006 14:55:02 »
Good Afternoon George

quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by neilep
I don't see how self evaluation can determine normalcy without comparable protracted historical data of the very thing that one is self evaluating and that the ability to understand the results has remained constant.



It rather depends upon what one regards as 'normal'.

Normal is a relative notion.  What may be normal for a particular person, may not necessarily be regarded as normal for the species as a whole, or you could argue that anything that is normal for any member of the species must be regarded as normal for all of the species.


quote:

I would expect the differences between genders to be far and wide also. It seems apparent to me that the female of the species finds same sex relationship far more acceptable than males. Women are far more comfortable to accept a gay embrace than a man and I am sure this would be reflected in the data.



What do you mean by a 'gay embrace'?


Normal is difficult to define as I believe the answer is as unique to an individual as their fingerprints are. This is why I specifically cited that for self evaluation, to have to hand historical data that then portrays what is ‘ usual ‘ for the individual would be helpful.

The data  could well  be varied in the extreme compared to others but would be most probably considered ‘ normal ‘ for that person, if that person has been seen to behave and act accordingly 'normal'

quote:


Women, in western cultures, do embrace more than men – but in other cultures, that may vary.  In Arab cultures, men will kiss and embrace, just as women might in the West, but there is nothing sexual in it (any more than one should interpret a parent kissing and embracing their child as being a sexual act).

This is ofcourse one of the problems with providing an objective definition of what homosexuality is.  Do you define homosexuality by a specific set of acts (and if one includes same gender kissing amongst those acts, you will offend a great number of Arabs)?

Up until the Victorian era, there was no such notion as homosexuality.  There was the crime of sodomy (which most modern cultures on any of the continents would consider a sexual act) , but this was as much a crime when applied to male/female relationships.  Even the Victorians had a problem with defining female homosexuality (this was made the more complex by the fact that female masturbation was seen as a medical procedure that was undertaken by a physician to relieve 'hysteria', and the dildo was a medical tool; and was not seen as seen as a sexual act).

It is clear that looking through much renaissance art that there was a clear sensual pleasure taken in the young male body, although it is not at all clear whether they would have regarded this as a sexual desire or not.  Were they homosexual paedophiles, or just people who appreciated the sensual beauty of the young male form?

This goes back to the question of who judges whether human behaviour falls into one category or another:  the individual who commits the act? The society in which that individual belongs? Or does each society simply apply its own labels to the act even if they disagree with the labels either that person or their peers might apply to the act?



George




LOL …yes, I expected you would pick me up on that as my use of  ‘gay embrace ‘ was way too subtle…it was a very mild subtle innuendo to maintain  an air of etiquette which in this case plainly misfired ! ;)

I meant for the term to be seen in  the excess of it’s it’s definition and has been taken too lightly.

When I say ‘ gay embrace’ I mean sex, I meant the act of having sex, I meant, not a kiss on the lips or the cheek (well..not the face cheek...;))…but if I may be blunt, two people of the same sex going at it ‘ hammer & tongs ‘   In this regard I understand it is easier and far more acceptable for women to display  and experiment with this ‘ gay embrace’ as it is for men. I am sure this is true. It is borne out by my experiences with my gay girly friends and just by observation  (not that I am a voyeur…..well …oh gawwwd !!)

I certainly do not define homosexuality by a specific set of acts. As I mentioned in my earlier post sex does not define the sexuality, and that one can be gay on a whole number of different levels without even ever having sex !

I am sure you are right about the notion of homosexuality in Victorian times but it of course was just as prevalent then as it is now. Except today it has very much come out of the closet.

It is difficult subject as there is no clear foundation to base the premises on, however, I would still maintain that for a gay whose life you would not know was any different to yours or mine,  would state that their proclivity to feel  ‘at one’  (subtle innuendo) across all levels and sexually towards the same sex does  ‘ feel ‘ and is completely normal......for them.


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Offline Laith

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #40 on: 27/04/2006 15:11:50 »
whats the percentage of gay poeple in the population?

Laith
 

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #41 on: 27/04/2006 16:35:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laith

whats the percentage of gay poeple in the population?

Laith



That's what I'd like to know. I'd be even more interested in the figures relating to gender. I see that you're in Canada, which is nice;)....

...It would be of further interest to see how the figures pan out internationally from one country to another.

The problem there is that figures like this are based on peoples honesty and in some cultures we will never know the facts.

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Offline Hadrian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #42 on: 27/04/2006 17:10:13 »

I new a chap who claimed he was born gay. He told me he hit the nurse with his handbag before screaming for a facial. I think he was having me but you never can tell.  



:D:):D :D:):D


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Offline gecko

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #43 on: 27/04/2006 17:50:55 »
'normal' and 'abnormal' is not what science should judge. thats a value judgement. 'typical' and 'atypical' is all that can be said when talking facts.
 

Offline Laith

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #44 on: 27/04/2006 18:39:25 »
Most figures are around 10% (but i want to point that they are mostly coming from gay organizations websites), i used to think its more like 2 or 3! 10% is a lot, don't you think so?
In Canada they legalized gay marriage in some churches last year (+ adopting kids), now I hope im not being ignorant here but i find this really wrong and totally "abnormal" unlike what some people would probably argue.

neilep are you sure 99% of people have sexual tendencies towards the same sex? I’m one of the 1% and this freaks me out[:p]:D


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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #45 on: 27/04/2006 18:55:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by Laith

Most figures are around 10% (but i want to point that they are mostly coming from gay organizations websites), i used to think its more like 2 or 3! 10% is a lot, don't you think so?
In Canada they legalized gay marriage in some churches last year (+ adopting kids), now I hope im not being ignorant here but i find this really wrong and totally "abnormal" unlike what some people would probably argue.

neilep are you sure 99% of people have sexual tendencies towards the same sex? I’m one of the 1% and this freaks me out[:p]:D




Laith



Nope !!..absolutely not sure !!...

...what I meant is that in some part of your life you MIGHT well consider the possibility of just entertaining the idea of wondering what it may be like !!....I can't really put it more diluted as that statement !!:D

You may have misunderstood me when I cited the 99%...read it again and I was stating it as a possible situation....I grant the figure is high but it was meant to represent a high figure. My apologies for the confusion....and stop freaking out !!

:)

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Offline mikey

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #46 on: 27/04/2006 19:58:21 »
Before dealing with these answers, we need to establish clearly what human behaviour or condition we mean, when we talk about homosexuality. To establish that we need to understand the human reproductive process, usually referred to as "sex".

The natural human reproductive process consists of a human male injecting seminal fluid discharged from his penis into the vagina of a human female. This leads to fertilization of the eggs within the womb of the female and eventual birth of a human child. This natural reproductive process of the human species determines the physiological and psychological characteristics of men and women, which are different and reflect their roles in this natural reproductive process. Similar differences between sexes exist in other animal species.

One of the characteristics of this reproductive process is that from time to time men and women feel a strong desire to perform this mutual act of reproduction. This is accompanied by strong emotions of attraction to the opposite sex, love, desire to possess or to belong, envy, jealousy, protectiveness. Often people find it difficult to resist or control these desires and emotions. Similar strong emotions are exhibited in relations of parents to their children. Similar emotion or instinct based reproductive process prevails among other animal species.

But, in addition to emotions and instincts, the human species is endowed with reason and will, which allows it to control emotions and instincts. Human behaviour is a complex interaction between instincts, emotions, reason and will. And the human reproductive process is also affected by this complex interaction.

This complex behaviour within each human individual is also affected by the fact that humans live in social groups. And behaviour of the individuals need to be adapted to life within the group. Thus, in all groups there emerges a moral code (formal or informal) which approves of some forms of behaviour and disapproves of other forms. This also applies to the reproductive process. In most human societies from the early times and up to the second half of the 20th century, all forms of sex related behaviour outside of the framework of heterosexual family were strongly disapproved of, and some forms of sex behaviour, and in particular homosexuality even criminalized. Often this was based on religious teachings, which provided the basis of social morality. Thus, in addition to instincts, emotions, reason and will another factor affects human behaviour - morality.

In the 20th century religion-based morality began to be questioned, and the idea was advanced that homosexuality is not a sin or a crime for which a person is responsible and should be punished, but a "mental illness or personality disorder", for which a person is not responsible, and from which he should be cured.

And towards the end of the 20th century the idea was promoted that homosexuality is not a "mental illness or personality disorder", but a normal form of human behaviour - or "alternative life style".

So what is homosexuality?

It is a behaviour in the course of which a person satisfies his sexual instincts and emotions by interacting with another person of the same sex. Among men this is done by one man using another man's anal passage, mouth, or hand, as if it were a woman's vagina. Homosexual women use their tongues, fingers, or similar objects as a substitute for a male penis. These activities produce sensations and emotions similar to those, experienced during the normal reproductive process. But normal reproductive process it is not. The anal passage is meant for discharge of the products of human digestion, and the mouth for intake of food, not for childbirth, and a finger or tongue cannot make a woman pregnant. This is clearly self-deception and behaviour contrary to that intended by Nature or its Creator.

So why do people engage in such unnatural behaviour? Are people born that way, or do they choose this form of behaviour consciously and voluntarily?

Although it is normal for people to be born with clearly distinct sexual characteristics, it is possible for people to be born with abnormal sexual characteristics. This is similar to people with other congenital abnormalities, like absent, deformed or additional limbs, Siamese twins, etc. Some people are born with underdeveloped, malformed or missing sexual organs. Sometimes the sexual organs of a child are such that it is not clear whether it is a boy or a girl. Some people have inborn behavioral abnormalities. In some cases these abnormalities can be harmless both to the person and others, like a person with six fingers. Sometimes these abnormalities can present a serious handicap to the person, but not to others, like missing limbs. And sometimes a person with congenital abnormalities can be dangerous to others, like a person with violent uncontrollable behaviour.

Yes, people can be born abnormal, but they are not born homosexual. It is meaningless to call a homosexual a person who by virtue of his birth is neither a man, nor a woman - in fact, such people are called hermaphrodites.

Homosexuality is a behaviour, not a physiological characteristic. It is an abnormal behaviour of normal people. It is a result of lack of correct education, and often of corruption by others.

Unlike animals, Man cannot rely exclusively on his instincts and emotions, his instincts and emotions must be controlled by his reason. This control by reason is not inborn, but develops through a prolonged learning process. Usually this happens in a social setting and starts within the family. Even simple instinctive acts like urination are subject to a lengthy learning process. Unlike animals, people do not urinate wherever they feel the urge, they do it in special places. The same applies to the procreational process (sex).

A human person needs to learn to play correctly his role in the procreational process from early childhood. If by the time a person reaches sexual maturity, he has failed to learn his correct role in the procreational process, he can become a victim of his sexual drives which he will misuse, and this can adversely affect the course of his life and can cause harm to others. Rape, marital problems, child molesting, extramarital sex and homosexuality are results of such failure.

In Europe and the Americas, where the social morality in the past was based on the Christian religion, the sex role training was performed by treating sex as a forbidden subject, but girls were expected to follow in the footsteps of their mothers, while boys of their fathers. Sex began at marriage. Sex outside of marriage was condemned, and homosexuality was a crime. Because sex was a taboo, and people were ignorant of anything relating to sex until they were married, young people who developed early or stayed unmarried for a long time were vulnerable to sexual misbehaviour, and could get involved in extramarital sex, or homosexual practices. This lead to some social scandals.

With the religious morality in Europe and the Americas being abandoned in the 20th century, which lead to spread of unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases, sex education was introduced in European and American schools. This, however, was conducted by people, who having liberated themselves from the restrictions of the morality of the past, have failed to develop an understanding of the role of the reproductive process in human life. The sex lessons were mostly concerned with prevention of unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases, and ignored the psychological, emotional and social aspects of sex. The approach was "safe sex" - "enjoy yourself, but use a condom or a pill". Homosexuality was safe from the point of view of unwanted pregnancies and children were encouraged to "discover their sexual orientation" experimentally. The issue of "safe sex" did not arise in respect of homosexuals until the epidemic of AIDS broke out. Again the answer was "play safe - use a condom".

One of the characteristics of sex is, that having tried it once, people want more - it becomes addictive. People also develop emotional dependence on their partners. It is not unknown for professional prostitutes to use this feature of sex to lead their "clients" to financial destitution. This is also true of "gay" sex. Once a male is subjected to anal sex, he often develops a behavioral dependency. In the past, when homosexuality was criminalized, this was often used to blackmail people in public life and for recruitment of spies during the Cold War.

Sex related activities are not restricted to sexual cravings and sensations in the course of the reproductive act, they have a continuous effect on general behaviour and life of the person. It affects thinking, dreams, attitude to life, manners, view of oneself. A man can start dreaming of being a woman, or imagining himself as one. People can develop cravings to inflict pain on their sexual partners, or to suffer pain being inflicted by their partners on themselves. Some people develop desire to drink other people's urine, or to be urinated or defecated upon. Failure to control sexual urges can lead to mental disorders, drug addiction, and alcoholism. Thus failure to control ones' sexual life, and to correctly fulfill one's role in the reproductive process can be seen as a disease of the soul.

People who fail to control their sex behaviour usually seek to satisfy their unnatural cravings by involving other people. Often their victims are children, or vulnerable young people. It is common for people having control of young people to corrupt them by sodomization. There were many cases of such practices in Britain and the US - in boarding schools, orphanages, and penal institutions. The present scandals involving Catholic priests in the US and Britain are examples of this.

As the number of homosexuals in Europe and America grew, politicians saw them as a new "constituency" - this became known as "chasing the gay vote". Some politicians themselves are "gay". Homosexuality became a kind of "political" movement. There even is a "gay culture", "gay press", etc. Thus, homosexuality came to be seen as an alternative, fashionable, and often preferred lifestyle.

This is clearly not a "mental illness or personality disorder" as it was thought of in the earlier part of the 20th century. Homosexuality is a form of social behaviour, which is caused by failure of governments to educate the people on the correct use of their reproductive process.
newbielink:http://www.truth-and-justice.info/homosexuality.html [nonactive]
 

Offline Laith

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #47 on: 27/04/2006 20:22:45 »
sorry neil, my bad :)

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Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #48 on: 27/04/2006 21:05:19 »
Mikey !!...I have to say I totally  disagree with ..well...most definitely your final statement where you say , and I quote " Homosexuality is a form of social behaviour, which is caused by failure of governments to educate the people on the correct use of their reproductive process "...so, are you saying that where  governments should have got it right, that there would be no homosexuality of any sorts ?

I find this stance abhorrent and offensive if that is what you indeed are saying. I have clicked on your link and I gather you are coming for a strict religious stance...is this correct ?

Let me just make it clear, I am not gay but have great friendships in gay people. I have never ever seen their being gay as a result of society getting it wrong !


Men are the same as women, just inside out !
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #49 on: 28/04/2006 14:19:45 »
It certainly has been the case that in the past various societies has tried to maximise reproductive capacity, and thus placed taboos on non-reproductive 'sexual' activity (I put 'sexual' in quotes, because it could be argued that the activity is stimulation of the sexual organs, but not sexual in nature, and is more akin to intimate social grooming – i.e. it is designed more to build social bonding than to reproduce).  Such societies have placed taboos upon contraception, and have considered it wrong for a man to have sexual intercourse with a women during her menstrual bleeding (i.e. when there is no possibility of the egg being fertilised).

To argue that homosexuality is wrong because it does not cause reproduction is only sustainable if one also prohibits all other non-reproductive sexual activity.



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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #49 on: 28/04/2006 14:19:45 »

 

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