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Author Topic: Are people born gay or they become gay after?  (Read 32913 times)

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #50 on: 28/04/2006 16:22:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by mikey
One of the characteristics of this reproductive process is that from time to time men and women feel a strong desire to perform this mutual act of reproduction. This is accompanied by strong emotions of attraction to the opposite sex, love, desire to possess or to belong, envy, jealousy, protectiveness. Often people find it difficult to resist or control these desires and emotions. Similar strong emotions are exhibited in relations of parents to their children. Similar emotion or instinct based reproductive process prevails among other animal species.



Not all sexual activity is possessive in nature, and not all animals have the same inter-sexual relationships (in fact, most species will have a particular variant of such relationships that is different from any other species – and in some species, the partners do not necessarily even survive the sexual act).

quote:

But, in addition to emotions and instincts, the human species is endowed with reason and will, which allows it to control emotions and instincts. Human behaviour is a complex interaction between instincts, emotions, reason and will.



I would disagree with statement totally.

All animal (whether human or otherwise) activity must be driven by emotion/instinct, and only that.  Reason will allow you the means to implement emotional desires, so that if you desperateley want something, reason will give you the means to attain it; but reason cannot of itself give you the desire to achieve one goal over another.

quote:

This also applies to the reproductive process. In most human societies from the early times and up to the second half of the 20th century, all forms of sex related behaviour outside of the framework of heterosexual family were strongly disapproved of, and some forms of sex behaviour, and in particular homosexuality even criminalized. Often this was based on religious teachings, which provided the basis of social morality. Thus, in addition to instincts, emotions, reason and will another factor affects human behaviour - morality.

In the 20th century religion-based morality began to be questioned, and the idea was advanced that homosexuality is not a sin or a crime for which a person is responsible and should be punished, but a "mental illness or personality disorder", for which a person is not responsible, and from which he should be cured.



This was actually something that came about in the late 19th century, rather than the 20th century.

Prior to that, the very notion of 'homosexuality' did not exist.  The term was originally coined as a medical term.  The law up to that point only dealt with sodomy, and made no distinction regarding gender.

quote:

And towards the end of the 20th century the idea was promoted that homosexuality is not a "mental illness or personality disorder", but a normal form of human behaviour - or "alternative life style".



As I have tried to point out earlier, it is very difficult to define what normality is – normality can be almost anything you choose it to be.

I think the more pertinent argument was that society (whether rightly or wrongly) no longer considered that the maximising of the birth rate of the population was any longer a primary requirement for society, and so has decided that sexual activity that did not contribute to the maximisation of the birth rate was no longer anti-social.

Society does not care about what is normal, because it defines its own normality; it cares about what is functional, which depends upon the needs of society at the time, which may vary from one time to another.

quote:

So what is homosexuality?

It is a behaviour in the course of which a person satisfies his sexual instincts and emotions by interacting with another person of the same sex.


This is clearly self-deception and behaviour contrary to that intended by Nature or its Creator.



By this criteria, consuming drugs such as alcohol or tobacco, or using artificial sweeteners, or other food substitutes, are also self-deception.

quote:

So why do people engage in such unnatural behaviour? Are people born that way, or do they choose this form of behaviour consciously and voluntarily?

Although it is normal for people to be born with clearly distinct sexual characteristics, it is possible for people to be born with abnormal sexual characteristics. This is similar to people with other congenital abnormalities, like absent, deformed or additional limbs, Siamese twins, etc. Some people are born with underdeveloped, malformed or missing sexual organs. Sometimes the sexual organs of a child are such that it is not clear whether it is a boy or a girl. Some people have inborn behavioral abnormalities. In some cases these abnormalities can be harmless both to the person and others, like a person with six fingers. Sometimes these abnormalities can present a serious handicap to the person, but not to others, like missing limbs. And sometimes a person with congenital abnormalities can be dangerous to others, like a person with violent uncontrollable behaviour.

Yes, people can be born abnormal, but they are not born homosexual. It is meaningless to call a homosexual a person who by virtue of his birth is neither a man, nor a woman - in fact, such people are called hermaphrodites.



If he is neither man nor woman, then she (for the default gender is female) is asexual, not hermaphrodite.  A hermaphrodite is both male and female, which is not the same as being neither.

quote:

Homosexuality is a behaviour, not a physiological characteristic. It is an abnormal behaviour of normal people. It is a result of lack of correct education, and often of corruption by others.

Unlike animals, Man cannot rely exclusively on his instincts and emotions, his instincts and emotions must be controlled by his reason. This control by reason is not inborn, but develops through a prolonged learning process. Usually this happens in a social setting and starts within the family. Even simple instinctive acts like urination are subject to a lengthy learning process. Unlike animals, people do not urinate wherever they feel the urge, they do it in special places. The same applies to the procreational process (sex).



The distinction you make between humans and other animals is wholly erroneous.

Many non-human animals will also learn from their social environment, and many non-human animals will carefully leave their waste product outside, or at the boundary, of their home territories – thus indicating that they too will control where they do and do not urinate/defecate.

This does not prove that either human or non-human animal acts against their instinct, only that they have many instincts, and some of those instincts will modify the natural behaviour induced by other instincts.

Ofcourse, there is an educational process involved in determining one's sexual behaviour (this is where one learns the appropriate courtship rituals for the social group).  But, as we know with all forms of learning, it is not exact, and human beings are not robots to be programmed with exact instructions.  It is natural that there will be some variability in human behaviour (as there is in all animals, and the more complex the animal, the greater the variability).  The question one has to ask is whether a particular variance is tolerable to society or not.  If no variance were permitted, then I for one would long ago have been a criminal.  Clearly, a variance that is permissible in one context, and at one moment in time, may be intolerable in another.

quote:

With the religious morality in Europe and the Americas being abandoned in the 20th century, which lead to spread of unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases, sex education was introduced in European and American schools.



Religious belief has been on the decline, but that is not to say that religious morality has been on the decline.

Nor am I aware of any increase in unwanted pregnancies – on the contrary, there has probably been an increased use of contraception, leading to a decline in unwanted pregnancies.

There has been an increase in extra-marital pregnancy, but this is not the same as unwanted pregnancies.  These days, it is perfectly acceptable to desire an extra-marital pregnancy, while it is also acceptable for a wife to choose not to become pregnant.

Sexually transmitted diseases come and go in cycles, but I am not aware of any long term increase in them (the history of Syphilis in the 15th and 16th century is no different to the history of AIDS in the 20th and 21st).





George
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #51 on: 28/04/2006 16:58:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Normal is difficult to define as I believe the answer is as unique to an individual as their fingerprints are. This is why I specifically cited that for self evaluation, to have to hand historical data that then portrays what is ‘ usual ‘ for the individual would be helpful.



But, as I indicated earlier, this is a very personal notion of normality.

One may say that it is normal for a particular person to commit murder, and one may also say that it is normal for society to contain murderers, but is this the same as saying it is normal for people to commit murder?

It also depends upon whether one regards the term 'normal' as a synonym for 'typical' or as a synonym for 'acceptable'.  Clearly, in the latter case, one may make a distinction between murder and homosexuality, but then one has to also has to accept that what may be acceptable in one society may not be acceptable in another society, and so that definition of normality becomes totally defined by the society one is in.

quote:

LOL …yes, I expected you would pick me up on that as my use of  ‘gay embrace ‘ was way too subtle…it was a very mild subtle innuendo to maintain  an air of etiquette which in this case plainly misfired ! ;)



Sorry is that one flew over my head [:I]

I cannot say that I have a great deal of observation in the matter.  One thing I would ask is whether you believe this reflects an actual different in acceptability of the nature of the relationship, or is it more that women are generally more demonstrative in public (and even in private) than men?

quote:

I am sure you are right about the notion of homosexuality in Victorian times but it of course was just as prevalent then as it is now. Except today it has very much come out of the closet.



This is a debatable point.

What is certain is that homosexuality (whatever it is) has always been with us, but we simply do not have the data available to provide any quantitative comparisons.

If the earlier speculation that levels of homosexuality vary with population density have any merit, then one would expect that the modern high population densities should have a higher number of homosexual persons  in the population than was true in past times with lower population densities.




George
 

Offline gecko

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #52 on: 28/04/2006 19:01:22 »
so you say pedophelia amongst catholic priests is a result of them "not controlling their sexual urges"? id say quite the opposite. they put way TOO much control on their sexual urges, since they enter the priesthood they cannot marry or even maturbate! this frustration of "controlling" their urges because they are "unnatural" creates great harm to a persons well-being and more chance for perversion.

people cannot will themselves to change theyre sexuality. they just cant. homosexuality is not self deception, trying to be straight because its "natural" when you dont feel that way is self-deception.

i also dissagree with almost all of your other points, but im sure someone else will break you down for that.

free love, sexual education taught by openminded adults, and free sexual expression are our best chances of having a happy and balanced population.

get blown church boy.
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #53 on: 28/04/2006 19:25:47 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko
so you say pedophelia amongst catholic priests is a result of them "not controlling their sexual urges"? id say quite the opposite. they put way TOO much control on their sexual urges, since they enter the priesthood they cannot marry or even maturbate! this frustration of "controlling" their urges because they are "unnatural" creates great harm to a persons well-being and more chance for perversion.

people cannot will themselves to change theyre sexuality. they just cant. homosexuality is not self deception, trying to be straight because its "natural" when you dont feel that way is self-deception.



Are not the two statements above mutually contradictory.

You say that paedophilia is a consequence of the environment that the priests find themselves in, but in the next statement you say that people's sexual preferences cannot be changed.

If, in your second paragraph, one replaced the word  'homosexuality' with 'paedophilia', how would it make your first paragraph look?



George
« Last Edit: 28/04/2006 19:27:25 by another_someone »
 

Offline Carolyn

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #54 on: 28/04/2006 21:48:05 »
quote:
The natural human reproductive process consists of a human male injecting seminal fluid discharged from his penis into the vagina of a human female. This leads to fertilization of the eggs within the womb of the female and eventual birth of a human child. This natural reproductive process of the human species determines the physiological and psychological characteristics of men and women, which are different and reflect their roles in this natural reproductive process. Similar differences between sexes exist in other animal species.

One of the characteristics of this reproductive process is that from time to time men and women feel a strong desire to perform this mutual act of reproduction. This is accompanied by strong emotions of attraction to the opposite sex, love, desire to possess or to belong, envy, jealousy, protectiveness. Often people find it difficult to resist or control these desires and emotions. Similar strong emotions are exhibited in relations of parents to their children. Similar emotion or instinct based reproductive process prevails among other animal species.


So, am I understanding you correctly?  The only time men and women have sex is really when they feel the need to reproduce?  Well, I can assure you that even if I had the ability to reproduce again, I sure as heck wouldn't want to.  You can bet that doesn't stop mine or hubbys sex drive, in fact, I believe we both enjoy it and "do it" alot more than we used to.

quote:
Homosexual women use their tongues, fingers, or similar objects as a substitute for a male penis.


Let's say that for some reason my husband was no longer able to perform his husbandly duties;).  If I were to go out and purchase myself an adult toy (and I would in a New York Minute, actually, hubby would probably buy it for me:D), would that make me a lesbian?

Mikey - I don't have the time or the energy to argue every ridiculous statement in your post, although George and Neil have done a fantastic job of it.  I would, however, like to know where you've gotten your information, other than that silly website.  If you're going to tell me the Bible is your source of information, then please include the scripture.

Carolyn
« Last Edit: 28/04/2006 21:55:31 by Carolyn »
 

Offline gecko

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #55 on: 01/05/2006 04:18:00 »
another_someone: if it seems contradictory, let me try to explain.

i think in the case of catholic priests, sexual repression and limitation during sexual maturation cause their pedophilia. i dont think, however, pedophiles can change their sexuality after its been developed, any more than homo or heterosexuals. and relieving the environmental factors of not being able to marry or masturbate, wouldnt make a difference after someone has been repressed initially.

 so, the environment one grows in might determine sexuality, but no one can just will their sexuality one direction.
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #56 on: 01/05/2006 08:36:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

another_someone: if it seems contradictory, let me try to explain.

i think in the case of catholic priests, sexual repression and limitation during sexual maturation cause their pedophilia. i dont think, however, pedophiles can change their sexuality after its been developed, any more than homo or heterosexuals. and relieving the environmental factors of not being able to marry or masturbate, wouldnt make a difference after someone has been repressed initially.

 so, the environment one grows in might determine sexuality, but no one can just will their sexuality one direction.



The problem I have with this is that you seem to suggest this might be a problem for people who become priests during their adolescent years, yet to my knowledge training for the priesthood does not start until after that point in time.  On the other hand, there are a great many people who pass through a Catholic upbringing who will never become priests, but will be influenced by the doctrines of the Church at precisely the period of time where they would be most sensitive to such formative influences.

Let me put to you another hypothesis why so many priests are paedophilia's.

Let me suggest that these people were latent paedophilia's long before they entered the priesthood.  The (whether consciously or subconsciously) were aware that there sexual preferences were taboo.  Given this fact, they already felt the need to repress their native sexual desires, and were thus attracted to an institution that would institutionalise such a repression of sexuality, as it gave them a sense of safety; unfortunately, a false sense of safety, since (at least for some of them) there sexual desires proves more powerful than the institutionalised taboo could repress.

Paedophiles  are not easy to turn around even with the proper medical infrastructure at your disposal, and the Catholic Church is not really geared to either seek out those who are entering the Church because they are running away from their sexuality, nor to give these people the specialised support they need.



George
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #57 on: 01/05/2006 18:13:04 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep#Behavior
quote:

Homosexuality in male sheep (found in 6–10% of rams) is associated with variations in cerebral mass distribution and chemical activity. A study reported in Endocrinology concluded that biological factors are in play; this study replicated similar findings in humans. It shows that approximately 10% of males are homosexual and that the brains of homosexual males are different.



http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/145/2/478
quote:

The Volume of a Sexually Dimorphic Nucleus in the Ovine Medial Preoptic Area/Anterior Hypothalamus Varies with Sexual Partner Preference
Sheep are one of the few animal models in which natural variations in male sexual preferences have been studied experimentally. Approximately 8% of rams exhibit sexual preferences for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams). We identified a cell group within the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus of age-matched adult sheep that was significantly larger in adult rams than in ewes. This cell group was labeled the ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus (oSDN). In addition to a sex difference, we found that the volume of the oSDN was two times greater in female-oriented rams than in male-oriented rams. The dense cluster of neurons that comprise the oSDN express cytochrome P450 aromatase. Aromatase mRNA levels in the oSDN were significantly greater in female-oriented rams than in ewes, whereas male-oriented rams exhibited intermediate levels of expression. Because the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus is known to control the expression of male sexual behaviors, these results suggest that naturally occurring variations in sexual partner preferences may be related to differences in brain anatomy and capacity for estrogen synthesis.





George
« Last Edit: 01/05/2006 18:32:56 by another_someone »
 

Offline gecko

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #58 on: 02/05/2006 01:00:00 »
it is possible that priests are pedophiles before they enter the priesthood, and theres a high percentage because they are ashamed. i hadnt really considered that.

i saw an interesting documentary on celibacy that had a long bit on the priesthood. some priests do enter the priesthood at about puberty, and there was confessionals of the grief it caused. however, this might not be a majority, and  it mightve have been pure sensationalism...
 

Offline erich

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #59 on: 10/05/2006 00:24:26 »
I feel this new study says it all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html

no surprise, Like anyone would chose to be gay. But I like this study because one can extrapolate that sexual identity is a sliding scale. That very few of us are exclusively hetero in our hormonal sensitivity, although most of us are in our sexual behavior. That hetero, bi, and homo are very coarse and stigmatizing labels.

Erich J. Knight

 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #60 on: 10/05/2006 00:58:55 »
quote:
Originally posted by erich

I feel this new study says it all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/05/08/lesbian.brains.ap/index.html

no surprise, Like anyone would chose to be gay. But I like this study because one can extrapolate that sexual identity is a sliding scale. That very few of us are exclusively hetero in our hormonal sensitivity, although most of us are in our sexual behavior. That hetero, bi, and homo are very coarse and stigmatizing labels.



Not sure it proves that much.

It does prove that there is a correlation between brain chemistry and behaviour – but then, why should there not be – the brain controls behaviour, so any change in behaviour should correspond with a change in brain activity  The report does not seem to make any attempt to show to what degree the change in brain chemistry is genetic or environmental in origin.



George
« Last Edit: 10/05/2006 01:00:15 by another_someone »
 

Offline gecko

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #61 on: 11/05/2006 23:31:13 »
or maybe an inborn succeptability to cancer makes people smokers!

no, im just kidding i agree with anoth_some
 

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #62 on: 12/05/2006 01:02:18 »
i still reckon its a genetic flaw :)

Michael
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #63 on: 12/05/2006 01:30:11 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
i still reckon its a genetic flaw :)



In evolution, there is no such thing as an error, only random variation.  That the traits continue at around 10% of the population (very similar to that monitored in sheep), indicates that the genes that create such a predisposition are not of themselves harmful to the species (at least, not at the level it exists).

Whether one takes a religious, or an evolutionary, perspective; to assume it to be an error is to assume that your own design of nature is superior to that which was created by nature or by God (whichever you would prefer).  Nature has no concept of error or correctness, whereas God is supposed to be incapable of error.



George
« Last Edit: 12/05/2006 01:33:23 by another_someone »
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #64 on: 12/05/2006 02:13:40 »
quote:
Originally posted by another_someone

quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
i still reckon its a genetic flaw :)



In evolution, there is no such thing as an error, only random variation.  That the traits continue at around 10% of the population (very similar to that monitored in sheep), indicates that the genes that create such a predisposition are not of themselves harmful to the species (at least, not at the level it exists).

Whether one takes a religious, or an evolutionary, perspective; to assume it to be an error is to assume that your own design of nature is superior to that which was created by nature or by God (whichever you would prefer).  Nature has no concept of error or correctness, whereas God is supposed to be incapable of error.



George


I dont agree with you george and there are lots and lots of people much cleverer than me who also disagree with you

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030516083103.htm  
 I also do believe  (according to peter tatchell) that in the UK the BMA class homosexuality  as a mental illness.



http://www-tech.mit.edu/V113/N62/cancer.62w.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/pdfs/data/1998/153-17/15317-18.pdf
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282176.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CE7D8123FF932A05752C0A963958260

 
quote:
There are a number of different causes of SCID. Each is caused by a different genetic defect, and each develops along a different pathway:

X-linked SCID, the most common type, a genetic flaw damages molecules that allow T cells and B cells to receive signals from crucial growth factors.
ADA deficiency results from the lack of an enzyme called adenosine deaminase (ADA) that helps cells, especially immune cells, to get rid of toxic byproducts. Without ADA, poisons build up and kill the lymphocytes.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25154

 
quote:
WHAT ARE THE FORMS OF LIMB-GIRDLE MUSCULAR DYSTROPHY?

There are at least 13 forms of LGMD, and they’re classified by the genetic flaws that appear to cause them (see “Known Forms of Limb-Girdle Muscular Dystrophy”). By 2005, 11 genes that lead to production of muscle proteins had been implicated as definite causes of LGMD when they’re flawed. MDA research was behind much of the work that identified these LGMD genes.
http://www.mdausa.org/publications/fa-lgmd-qa.html

 
quote:
Some 7.9 million children a year are born with serious birth defects caused at least partly by a genetic flaw, such as heart defects, spina bifida and other neural tube defects, sickle cell anemia and Down syndrome.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11101963/


so gene's which predisposes families  to cancer or Schizophrenia for example are not genectic flaws. They are to me ..we are born to live and any genetic abnormality/mutation which prevents someone from living, doing the most basic thing in life is a flaw.

We are given working reproductive organs for a reason to Procreate and anything which we are born with which prevents us from do this is a flaw and in my opinion gay people are born gay .  

Michael
« Last Edit: 12/05/2006 04:18:08 by ukmicky »
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #65 on: 12/05/2006 05:15:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
I dont agree with you george and there are lots and lots of people much cleverer than me who also disagree with you

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/05/030516083103.htm  
 I also do believe  (according to peter tatchell) that in the UK the BMA class homosexuality  as a mental illness.



http://www-tech.mit.edu/V113/N62/cancer.62w.html
http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/pdfs/data/1998/153-17/15317-18.pdf
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282176.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CE7D8123FF932A05752C0A963958260

 
quote:
There are a number of different causes of SCID. Each is caused by a different genetic defect, and each develops along a different pathway:

X-linked SCID, the most common type, a genetic flaw damages molecules that allow T cells and B cells to receive signals from crucial growth factors.
ADA deficiency results from the lack of an enzyme called adenosine deaminase (ADA) that helps cells, especially immune cells, to get rid of toxic byproducts. Without ADA, poisons build up and kill the lymphocytes.
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=25154

 
quote:
WHAT ARE THE FORMS OF LIMB-GIRDLE MUSCULAR DYSTROPHY?

There are at least 13 forms of LGMD, and they’re classified by the genetic flaws that appear to cause them (see “Known Forms of Limb-Girdle Muscular Dystrophy”). By 2005, 11 genes that lead to production of muscle proteins had been implicated as definite causes of LGMD when they’re flawed. MDA research was behind much of the work that identified these LGMD genes.
http://www.mdausa.org/publications/fa-lgmd-qa.html

 
quote:
Some 7.9 million children a year are born with serious birth defects caused at least partly by a genetic flaw, such as heart defects, spina bifida and other neural tube defects, sickle cell anemia and Down syndrome.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11101963/


so gene's which predisposes families  to cancer or Schizophrenia for example are not genectic flaws. They are to me ..we are born to live and any genetic abnormality/mutation which prevents someone from living, doing the most basic thing in life is a flaw.

We are given working reproductive organs for a reason to Procreate and anything which we are born with which prevents us from do this is a flaw and in my opinion gay people are born gay .  

Michael



You are confusing a medical perspective with an evolutionary perspective.

What I said was that in evolutionary terms, there is no such thing as a genetic error.  In medical terms, clearly there are; albeit, what is determined to be a genetic error is totally arbitrary, since it depends upon an arbitrary human notion of what is the 'correct' genetic code.  The medical profession could as easily decide that having dark skin is a genetic flaw (perfectly reasonable if they make the assumption that all people should be pale skinned).



George
 

Offline tanian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #66 on: 13/05/2006 19:55:50 »
I think the argument that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth has been well established here, so I won't waste time reiterating it. I will tell you I believe it to be an erroneous, detrimental, and therefore undesireable aspect of our culture.

I personally believe it to be a mental illness- in exactly the same sense that epilepsy and dyslexia are mental illnesses. I fail to see how anyone could define them as anything else.

That's not to say I have any prejudices- I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).

There is an argument that homosexuality is a result of hormone levels in the womb - 'the fight to be male' - and the various issues that come with transforming an embryo into a fully functioning Wayne Rooney (hell he's so straight he sleeps with old hookers). Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia. It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all. To be honest I doubt we will ever know - who in their right mind would pursue funding for the necessary research with todays PC climate? One cannot offend the sexually dyslexic, even in the name of science :)
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #67 on: 13/05/2006 20:29:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by tanian
Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia.



Testosterone is capable of rewiring the brain (it has been shown that testosterone actually rewires the brains of male songbirds that allows them to sing).

quote:

 It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all.



I don't know of, and would doubt, that there is any correlation between homosexuality and dyslexia.  The areas of the brain effected would be very different.

Nonetheless, I do agree that there are some similarities (although not necessarily in the way you suggest).  The point is that in an illiterate society, dyslexia carries no cost.  In the same way, in a world that is overpopulated, homosexuality carries little cost.  In a world that is capable of massive human expansion, homosexuality would carry significant cost, and hence why most pre-modern societies tended to be intolerant of homosexuality.




George
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #68 on: 13/05/2006 20:33:14 »
quote:
Originally posted by tanian

I think the argument that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth has been well established here, so I won't waste time reiterating it. I will tell you I believe it to be an erroneous, detrimental, and therefore undesireable aspect of our culture.

I personally believe it to be a mental illness- in exactly the same sense that epilepsy and dyslexia are mental illnesses. I fail to see how anyone could define them as anything else.

That's not to say I have any prejudices- I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).

There is an argument that homosexuality is a result of hormone levels in the womb - 'the fight to be male' - and the various issues that come with transforming an embryo into a fully functioning Wayne Rooney (hell he's so straight he sleeps with old hookers). Maybe it is testosterone related, or maybe it is just a wiring problem, exactly like dyslexia. It seems there could very well be a direct correlation between dyslexia and homosexuality, because it is all about perception, after all. To be honest I doubt we will ever know - who in their right mind would pursue funding for the necessary research with todays PC climate? One cannot offend the sexually dyslexic, even in the name of science :)




Can I ask you something?... For arguments sake, humour me will you ?....If it could be proved that being gay is NOT an illness would you then accept that ?...

Are you saying that like Dyslexia and mental illness's, that homosexuality is then treatable?...

Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do !!....

Is there really some truth that dyslexia can be correlated with homosexuality?


In MY opinion...It sickens me that homosexuality is compared to a mental illness

I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?

I question ones statement when people say they are not prejudiced and then go on to state that gays are gay because they are ill !!

Your final statement where you say one can not offend the sexual dyslexic IS offensive !!....I think in this regard funding for research as to the nature of heterosexuality AND homosexuality could be beneficial so that misguided prejudiced people with their so called 'non prejudiced ' points of view may benefit from the results.

C'mon...to put homosexuality in the same bracket as a mental illness (or any illness) is offensive ! in MY opinion !!

I am not attacking you but asking you to assist me in helping me to unbderstand your statements.


This whole thread has me rasing my arms skyward sometimes


Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 13/05/2006 21:50:31 by neilep »
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #69 on: 13/05/2006 21:23:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by neilep
Are you saying that like Dyslexia and mental illness's, that homosexuality is then treatable?...



I would question whether dyslexia is either a mental illness, nor treatable.

Dyslexia is to reading what tone deafness is to music.  No-one would suggest that tone deafness is a mental illness.

The only difference between the two is that we have created a society where being able to play and listen to music is optional, but being able to read and write is not.

We can help people to read inspite of their dyslexia, but we cannot cure dyslexia, any more than we can cure tone deafness.



George
« Last Edit: 13/05/2006 21:24:06 by another_someone »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #70 on: 13/05/2006 21:43:53 »
I would also question whether dyslexia is either a mental illness or treatable......Hmm..well maybe treatable but perhaps not curable  !!

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Offline tanian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #71 on: 13/05/2006 22:42:47 »
The previous post was written in haste. The hope was to explain, but clearly I failed to do that.

I agree wholeheartedly that 'illness' is the wrong word in this context, and I hope you will accept my apologies.

I do not believe at this time that homosexuality would be, or should be curable, and I regret the inference that I am so bigoted that I would feel that way.

The word I meant to, and should have used, is 'aberration'.

I believe homosexuality to be an aberration. It is a disorder in exactly the way that dyslexia, epilepsy, colour blindness, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and a whole host of other ailments are considered disorders.

If you have issue with either the term 'aberration' or 'disorder' then I suggest, most strongly, that you look them up. They do have very nasty, negative connotations attached to them, and are as a result quite nasty words- but this does not change their literal meanings.

Homosexuality is an aberration. Literally.

As for the question of prejudice- I assure you I am not prejudiced. At all. I think no more of homosexuality than I do of dyselxia, colour blindness or epilepsy. I honestly feel they must in some sense seem a handicap to those affected by these conditions, but hey, as I said, they are no barriers to leading full and productive lives. And nor should they be.

Oh, and the 'sexual dyslexic' thing was simply a play on words. I did intend it to be humorous, but I clearly misjudged the audience. I sincerely hope I did not offend anyone.
 

Offline tanian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #72 on: 13/05/2006 23:06:20 »
quote:
Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do !!....



Thinking about it, some homosexuals must have a truly horrific time of it. Imagine having a totally prejudiced, BNP voting family and then 'coming out' to them. For some it must be a terrible thing, the cause of much distress, heartache and unhappiness. Some homosexuals must certainly wish there was a cure.

quote:
I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?



heterosexuals actually have a choice.
The key word here is choice.
Nature denies homosexuals of a choice.

 
quote:
Your final statement where you say one can not offend the sexual dyslexic IS offensive !!....


Humbly accepted. See above post.  

quote:
I think in this regard funding for research as to the nature of heterosexuality AND homosexuality could be beneficial so that misguided prejudiced people with their so called 'non prejudiced ' points of view may benefit from the results.



Agreed. That is a fantastic idea. I feel quite sure many, many people would benefit from the results. We would be able to adequately raise awareness of such issues in society as a whole, and challenge ignorance everywhere. Even if it comes from homosexuals.
Sexuality is, after all, no barrier to ignorance or bigotry.

To be completely honest, many homosexuals and transexuals would probably opt for a cure if there was one available. It is certainly a damning condemnation of our society that people would feel the need, but it also is a distinct possibility.


"These are my opinions... If you don't like them, I have others"
Groucho Marx
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #73 on: 13/05/2006 23:07:26 »
Oh why do you have to go and make me feel all guilty now ? :)

I apprecaite your clarification and assistance in helping me understand your point of view.

OK..I can see why you might state that homosexulaity is an aberration...at the same time...there are just as many heterosexual practices (or is is practises?) which could also be deemed an aberration too !......however...I DO understand what you are saying now :)

 I know a few gays, in my dialogues that I enjoy with them I can't say I have ever heard them say that their homosexuality in itself has given them reason to feel handicapped in any way.....but that certain aspects of society may treat them as such.

Thank you for clearing your points up. I too apologise for my tone.

I suppose I have a lot of time  for gays and almost feel an affinity because in the capacity that I have of my experience of dealing with them in business and work and social gatherings, I have only ever witnessed from my perspective what is clear to me as a completely normal application towards life, like you and me.  I honestly see them as equal in every respect and it just upsets me that ' they ' should be discussed so.

So, I am bringing personal experience here which perhaps , maybe this thread would then be different if we all had a whole bunch of gay friends too !...and I don't mean the odd acquaintance !:D

Thanks again.

Neil


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Offline tanian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #74 on: 13/05/2006 23:53:12 »
No probs neil :D

Tell you what tho, there's no way we'd get this hot and bothered if we were talking about bloody colour blindness.

Hey, great... Ok, we've done gays, lets get onto politics and religion...  Hey, did you just spill my pint? What did you say about Neil's mum???

Honestly, its a minefield in here ;)
 

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #74 on: 13/05/2006 23:53:12 »

 

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