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Author Topic: Are people born gay or they become gay after?  (Read 32799 times)

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #75 on: 13/05/2006 23:54:33 »
quote:
Originally posted by tanian
I truly do not, someone's sexuality is an irrelevance when it comes to contributing to society, but I do believe that nature clearly did not intend on giving these people children to care for (enter the political arguments over same sex couples as adoptive parents... fight amongst yourselves, I'll be over here...).



In how many species does nature actually promote adoption, no matter what the sexuality of the adoptive parents?

What nature often does support is shared parenting (i.e. parental duties shared between the natural parents and the siblings of the parent – i.e. the child's aunts and/or uncles).  In such a scenario, the actual sexuality of the aunt's and uncles scarcely matter.



George
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #76 on: 14/05/2006 01:45:00 »
Neil please dont take any of this the wrong way.

Hi Neil this part isn't in response to you post so please don't take it personally it just that I felt the need to be truthful and let everyone know my personal views on the gay issue as I am going to answer some of your questions.
 
Firstly before I start let me say I have no hatred or dislike for anyone just because they are  lesbian or gay as they harm nobody and because I believe rightly or wrongly gay people are born gay, they are what they are born to be and therefore should not be persecuted in any way.

However I personally find the act of homosexual penetrative sex between two males disgusting and wrong, and therefore find the people who do this act as disgusting and wrong, but the same has to be said about penetrative anal sex between a man and a woman which I find equally abhorrent.

Anal sex is not something that evolution has designed the human body to do and has in fact caused the death of a number of individuals participating in it.  In my view its nasty, horrible, dirty and disgusting and I wouldn't argue against it being outlawed.

Legally anal sex and separately homosexuality has been deemed to be an acceptable practice in todays society, but that doesn't mean it cant be argued or spoken out against as is often done by a large percentage of today's society who still find the idea of it as wrong,they are legally and morally allowed to have those views just like people who agree with it are allowed to have their views and so neither side should be attacked if they wish to politely express themselves. Everyone has a right to there own opinions. im not saying you have :)
 
On a side issue in regards to the acceptance of homosexuality, it's weird how women seem to accept it more than men.

Now in answer to some of your questions

quote:
can I ask you something?... For arguments sake, humour me will you ?....If it could be proved that being gay is NOT an illness would you then accept that ?...
____________________




Yes I would, however what is a mental illness. One definition is someone having a personality disorder, which I feel could easily be argued either way in the case of homosexuality. But there are many definitions with different countries having differing views. I  suppose it comes down to your personal view as even The BMA state that

"The term "mental illness" is undefined and its operational definition and usage is a matter for clinical judgement in each case".

These days psychiatrists are however trying to be less speculative and look for medical evidence to aid their diagnosis such as gene and neurotransmitter abnormalities the same things which they believe could be part of the reason for people being homosexual. So why cant homosexuality be a mental disorder, a mental disorder doesn't in my book nessesary mean something bad.

(I thought i would sneak this bit in) On the issue regarding whether genetics has anything to do with people being gay  there has been a number of studies that found just that. There have been a number of studies which found that if one Monozygotic) genetically identical twin was gay then the other had on average 50% chance of being gay too. Whereas (dizygotic twins) Twins  who are not genetically identical had only a 22 % chance of having the identical sexual orientation.  
quote:


Who in their right minds is going to try and get homosexuals to be treated...I've never heard such a bizarre notion...they feel just as normal as you and I do!!....
It sickens me that homosexuality is compared to a mental illness
 



It doesn't sicken me because a mental illness doesn't have to be something bad.
One of the reasons homosexuality was dropped as a mental illness in the USA was because of the stigma which comes unfairly with term "mental illness". Many people think that someone with a mental illness is bad for society or someone who should be shunned ,and so they figured therefore that people would then feel that if homosexualarity remained a mental disorder then homosexuals would also recieve some of the prejudeces people recieve through having a mental condition.

but in the real world they believe 1 in 4 people are diagnosed with a mental illness of form or another and most lead normal happy productive lives .

Lots of people do not even know that they have a mental disorder until it is diagnosed and up to then felt like there was nothing wrong with them, they felt normal and even after diagnosis they still felt normal. But what is normal?

Many people live with mental conditions which don’t require treatment but i suppose it would depend on whether the condition was deemed undesirable or detrimental to the sufferer or society and as homosexuals have not been deemed so in the UK  your point is pointless. HA:)





quote:
I do not agree that homosexuality is detrimental to the population growth....What about all the straight people who decide to not be parents? ...should they be forced to procreate?
The population is getting older and not enough children are being born but I'm not qualified to give an opinion on this one so thats as far as i will go. I will leave it to people like George who are better at the stats etc.:)

quote:
I question ones statement when people say they are not prejudiced and then go on to state that gays are gay because they are ill !!

Most of us have a little bug (or virus not sure which) running around our brains slowing down our responses and lowering our IQ’s so in theory most of us are ill  :).
 



One question if I may my friend:) I HOPE WERE STILL FRIENDS.


Given the fact that most of us parents would like our children to find a partner and have children in the future


if the doctors came up with a simple tablet which you only take once which would remove the small chance of any of  your children being gay  and was totally safe to take would you take it.

And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.


Michael
« Last Edit: 14/05/2006 02:51:06 by ukmicky »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #77 on: 14/05/2006 02:44:08 »
Hi Chum (BTW..I really hate you :D)

In light of no (open) gays on the site....I think I am taking on the role as 'token gay' here. It does make for an interesting discussion.....and I would call it a discussion as I am not treating this as a debate.

Michael (My mate :)), I appreciate your words regarding the nature of what a ' mental illness' is...but my point is not just the reference to a mental illness it is the fact that homosexuality is considered a  'condition' in the first place !

  To be a condition it must be something other than what is generally accepted as being the norm.  Now , I know that homosexuality is in the minority but whichever way you label it, to the gays that I know, it would be deemed a prejudicial term as it demonstrates that it is being labelled ' Not Normal '....THAT...is my point.  Now I am not debating the definition of ' normal ' in this case , I am expressing a point of view from the gays perspective.

..So my point is not the ' mental illness' but the labelling in the first place.

I think , unless one is gay, which as you know I am not, or has close association with gays then it is really difficult to see where I am coming from.




Regarding the population growth...what ever the raw data is it makes no difference...there is as far as I know, no Government program to ' treat ' gays on the basis of their effect on the population growth..or on anything for that matter.....in fact, a generation of gays in the majority might do the World .......a world of good !! :)




Your pill question. (I’m not too sure if it’s a fair question !!!:))

CRIPES !!...Could it happen ?...Boy would that be controversial in the very least.

I am not going to be pedantic here and I shall assume that this drug is 100% safe to all parties, OK, got that out of the way.

Good question. ….To be honest…I just can not answer it yet…..my gut instinct tells me that I might want to take the pill…but…the chances of my child being gay is slim anyway,. Y’see I have an issue here as to what is natural…..I truly believe that gay love is natural, it’s as natural as  straight love is in MY opinion….I know in yours, it is not…….I would not wish to participate in gay love but I could if I wanted to, and so could you and everybody else……..

……..so we’re at an impasse really…….and I was thinking before…that everything we say here regarding love, god, sexuality, emotions etc etc.....…well, it’s really all based on personal opinion whereas the sciences are mostly dealt with by facts and data etc. …I realise that is a generic statement but I honestly believe the nature of human behaviour is so wide and varied that we may never understand it and that any ‘ mental ‘ condition is not as clear cut as a scientific experiment where the results will always be the same for example.

Semantics are a real problem…….

I know you may think I have gone off down Tangent Avenue here but I have been letting my mind wander because I really want to answer your question, and I was hoping that by the time I type THIS far I will know what to say….

Michael (my chum ! :)), unless faced with the choice in a real situation I don’t think I can ever answer that question with complete honesty. I would like to think that I would let ‘ nature ‘ takes it’s course though I can also see the temptation of taking that pill.

Sorry…best answer I can give…for now…….MATEY !! :D:)

I would not protest against others taking it..I may think negatively though if the reason for consumption of such a pill is based on homophobia though.

...and in case someone asks, I would not be devastated if one of my children was gay....we would talk, discuss at length, but I would never love that child any less.

Michael.....we're mates ! :D

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #78 on: 14/05/2006 02:57:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
However I personally find the act of homosexual penetrative sex between two males disgusting and wrong, and therefore find the people who do this act as disgusting and wrong, but the same has to be said about penetrative anal sex between a man and a woman which I find equally abhorrent.

Anal sex is not something that evolution has designed the human body to do and has in fact caused the death of a number of individuals participating in it.  In my view its nasty, horrible, dirty and disgusting and I wouldn't argue against it being outlawed.



I would go along with that, but then I also don't like eating broccoli or cauliflower (and many other foods besides), so I'm not sure why my taste in one thing or another is particularly relevant in the wider scheme of things.

quote:

On a side issue in regards to the acceptance of homosexuality, it's weird how women seem to accept it more than men.



Is that so, or is it that women are more tolerant of male homosexuality, but not so of female homosexuality (i.e. they don't see male homosexuality as a threat because it does not involve women – in the same was as heterosexual men are generally more tolerant of female homosexuality than they are of male homosexuality)?

quote:

It doesn't sicken me because a mental illness doesn't have to be something bad.



I cannot see this.  By definition, an illness is bad (not the person, just the illness itself).

You may talk of a mental condition not necessarily being bad, but the moment to apply the term 'illness' to a condition (mental or otherwise), it must indicate a judgement of something bad happening to a person (it makes no sense to say a person is ill, but there is nothing wrong with them).

quote:

One of the reasons homosexuality was dropped as a mental illness in the USA was because of the stigma which comes unfairly with term "mental illness". Many people think that someone with a mental illness is bad for society or someone who should be shunned ,and so they figured therefore that people would then feel that if homosexualarity remained a mental disorder then homosexuals would also recieve some of the prejudeces people recieve through having a mental condition.

but in the real world they believe e 1 in 4 people are diagnosed with one form or another of mental illness and most lead normal happy productive lives .

Lots of people do not even know that they have a mental disorder until it is diagnosed and up to then felt like there was nothing wrong with them, they felt normal and even after diagnosis they still felt normal. But what is normal?



There is also often controversy about diagnosing anything that is outside the normal.  There is much controversy about over diagnosis of things such as ADHD.
quote:

The population is getting older and not enough children are being born but I'm not qualified to give an opinion on this one so thats as far as i will go.



While this is true, this is far more concerned with a reduction of the number of children born to heterosexual couples, and the small number of people who do not have children because they are homosexual really has little impact on the matter.

N any case, if there is an impact that homosexuality would have on this matter, it would only be female homosexuality, since the number of children born is very little influenced by the number of heterosexually active men, and far more by the number of pregnancies each women has.

Furthermore, in past times, men were often taken out of the pool of sexually active by entering a monastic or priestly life.  We may have very much fewer priests, and almost no monks, but probably about equal numbers of homosexuals.

The main difference in the past was the generally regarded public duty for people in general, and women in particular, to have children.  These days, a very large number of heterosexuals (myself included) do not have children at all.  In the past, that would have been seen as a very selfish lifestyle to undertake.

quote:

If they could find a way too prevent any child of yours from being born gay by giving you a simple tablet which was totally safe to take would you take it.

And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.



If one could take a pill that would guarantee that your child would be male, then a great number of people in India, China, and no doubt many other countries, would choose to take that pill (there is already evidence of extensive gender based selective abortions in those countries).



George
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #79 on: 14/05/2006 03:02:09 »
quote:
If one could take a pill that would guarantee that your child would be male, then a great number of people in India, China, and no doubt many other countries, would choose to take that pill (there is already evidence of extensive gender based selective abortions in those countries).
quote:
they could find a way too prevent any child of yours from being born gay by giving you a simple tablet which was totally safe to take would you take it.
And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.



 Dogging the issue george;) i said gay not male:)



Michael
« Last Edit: 14/05/2006 03:06:19 by ukmicky »
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #80 on: 14/05/2006 03:34:29 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky
And if you wouldn’t take it would you protest against other people taking it.



My own instinct would be that I would be reluctant to distort the natural spectrum of behaviour unless there is an overwhelming clinical need to do so.  That about 6%-10% or people are homosexual is the natural order of things.  If we distort this, what would be the secondary ramifications?

I would have no problem with one or two people taking such a pill, because that number would not have a population wide statistical significance; but if there was any risk that a substantial proportion of the population would be taking such a pill, and hence creating a distortion in the natural spectrum of sexual orientation in the population, then I would start to be concerned.



George
 

Offline veteran

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #81 on: 20/05/2006 15:48:34 »
If we are to say homosexuality has something to do with geneiics then sexual intercourse has the same tendercy.like sexual intercourse it has to do with feelings but which are unnatural,thats why i often say gays are inhuman.To become a gay has to do with choice and desire and i believe has nothing to do with genes.People could only be born gays if there was a possibility of choosing during birth which is impossible.to conclude people can't be born gays
 

Offline ukmicky

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #82 on: 20/05/2006 15:56:14 »
And that was brought to you by someone who has no idea.

Desire yes, choice no.

Michael
« Last Edit: 20/05/2006 15:57:25 by ukmicky »
 

another_someone

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #83 on: 20/05/2006 16:37:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by veteran
If we are to say homosexuality has something to do with geneiics then sexual intercourse has the same tendercy.like sexual intercourse it has to do with feelings but which are unnatural,thats why i often say gays are inhuman.



The terms 'unnatural' and 'inhuman' are meaningless in this context.

If it happens, then it is natural that it should happen (and that it can be observed in other species, such a sheep, only goes to reinforce the notion that it is natural).

To say it is inhuman is to suggest that they are a distinct and separate species to humans.  This clearly in not a supportable position to take.

quote:

To become a gay has to do with choice and desire and i believe has nothing to do with genes.



If taken at face value (and ignoring the contrary evidence), this would imply that the converse, heterosexuality, is also purely a matter of choice, and that neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality is an innate and natural state, but each a deliberate and artificial choice.



George
 

Offline tanian

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #84 on: 21/05/2006 16:25:10 »
quote:

On the issue regarding whether genetics has anything to do with people being gay  there has been a number of studies that found just that. There have been a number of studies which found that if one Monozygotic) genetically identical twin was gay then the other had on average 50% chance of being gay too. Whereas (dizygotic twins) Twins  who are not genetically identical had only a 22 % chance of having the identical sexual orientation.  




To sum up:

There is evidence to suggest that homosexuality is linked to genetic factors.

Conclusion:

People are born gay.

Well now we know.
 

Offline ty80

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #85 on: 26/05/2006 11:44:11 »
hope not cause i a have a wife and 2 kids :D
 

Offline dynamix

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #86 on: 30/05/2006 08:24:37 »
Hi there. Your "open" gay man has arrived (Ooh Matron!)

I've just joined this forum this morning, found this topic, read right through it, and should have been in bed 2 hrs ago.

First of all, thanks to all those people in here who've been rallying to our cause, and to the others, thanks for being honest & not turning this topic into a flame war. It's good to know there's somewhere to have these kinds of discussions sensibly and dispassionately.

I am both gay and a Christian, which may come as a surprise to both sides. I have to say, right now, that my experience has been that people on the Gay scene have been far more intollerant of my faith than Christians have been of my sexuality. More than once, I've heard the words "Here comes the vicar" on entering a gay bar!

Anyway, to give you just a little insight, I always knew I was "different", right from when I was a toddler. It took me until way through puberty to put a name to that "difference", and then maybe another 20 yrs to realise that the name, "gay", was something of an arbitrary pidgeon-hole anyway.

I can honestly say that I don't think I have EVER met anyone who was 100% in their sexuality. By that, I'm not trying to say "the whole world is gay", anymore than I would say "the whole world is straight". I'm simply alluding to the fact that nature, God, science, logic and the world in general doesn't work that way. You can no more find a 100% heterosexual or homosexual than you can find a 100% frictionless surface or a 100% solution of alcohol! In all but the most theoretical of sciences, there is no black or white, merely shades of grey, and in the same way that my dress socks LOOK black, but don't absorb all the radiation of the universe, there are those people who FEEL completely oriented in their sexuality (and for all human purposes probably are).

For those reasons, I tend to agree with the "combined theory" that there are elements of genetics, chemistry, environment and societal influences all stacking up together on this one, and I think we have rather less chance of finding a "unified theory" of sexuality than we do a unified theory of physics!

I'm definately convinced that population has a part to play. In fact, I seem to remember seeing a study, some years ago, which claimed that the instance of homosexuality was statistically higher in closely populated areas. Hence, if you REALLY don't like us, live in a rural area! ;)

Finally, for those who come from a religious, particularly Jewish or Christian, standpoint, I would recommend you read the book of "1 Samuel" in the Old Testament. The relationship between David and Jonathan is regarded by many gay Christians and Jews as being the template for a wholesome and godly same-sex relationship. I'll be glad to expand on this if anyone is interested, but you really need to read the book first (and give me permission to drift a little off-topic).[:0] (It's notable that you won't find this scripture on the readings list in many fundamentalist churches!)

Anyway, I hope I've given you a bit of food for thought.

I welcome your comments, even if you disagree! :D

"What's a unified theory, daddy?"...
"Ask your mother!"
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #87 on: 30/05/2006 13:30:03 »
THANK YOU DYNAMIX for your valuable contribution and very interesting post.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
 

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Re: Are people born gay or they become gay after?
« Reply #87 on: 30/05/2006 13:30:03 »

 

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