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Author Topic: Does the universe spin?  (Read 9689 times)

Offline Mr. Data

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Does the universe spin?
« on: 08/07/2011 19:28:47 »
According to recent research, scientists are proposing that the early universe may have spun about an axis, meaning the structure of the universe could be a lot more complicated than first imagined.

http://www.stardrive.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4596:the-universe-may-have-been-born-spinning-according-to-new-findings-on-the-symmetry-of-the-cosmos&catid=43:science&Itemid=82


 

Online syhprum

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Does the universe spin?
« Reply #1 on: 08/07/2011 19:33:11 »
A meaninless question, by definition the universe is all that there is to spin it must be spinning relative to something else..........
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #2 on: 08/07/2011 19:37:13 »
A meaninless question, by definition the universe is all that there is to spin it must be spinning relative to something else..........

This is true. Perhaps we shall see more comparative theories which help to tackle this relativistic problem soon enough. If the universe rotates, then it must be speculated that relativity has it's insights wrong concerning boundary problems.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #3 on: 08/07/2011 19:40:57 »
We have many models which already attempt at answering these questions, such as Ekpyrotic Theory (which made good use of the dark flows) where the gravitational force finally pushes our universe into another catastrophic depletion of active energy through hitting other universes... or string theory essentially attempts to answer for our universe as branch of many other universes floating in a multidimensional pool. Of course, here at NS we have seen a recent thread (almost along the same tune) http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=40043.0
 

Offline Supercryptid

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Does the universe spin?
« Reply #4 on: 08/07/2011 22:27:19 »
If the Universe were to spin at a different rate near the "equator" than it did near the "poles" (as is the case with the Sun) it might be detectable by watching the relative velocities of galaxies in these locations.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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Does the universe spin?
« Reply #5 on: 08/07/2011 22:57:25 »
What shape would the Universe be in order that it would not be possible to detect the difference in rotation?

I heard it was doughnut shaped........


image from:pinoyexchange.com

If the Universe was "born" spinning as the link states then maybe that's why everything else seems to spin. I have to say the use of the word "born" is very biological and is normally used in reference to childbirth.  Hurry up Planck Satellite, (1rpm)!!  So many questions!!!
 

Offline yor_on

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Does the universe spin?
« Reply #6 on: 08/07/2011 23:06:01 »
This handedness seems random as I understand it? There is no angular momentum mentioned for the Big Bang, as I know? If you imagine there was, and then add the newly created mass in it as it expands, making our 'sphere' bigger, we should see and feel it, I think? But I'm not sure there.

That is if we assume the universe spinning relative 'something'. Because without anything to 'spin' against, if we treat the universe as 'one whole thing'? I don't know, can we define a 'spin' that way? Newton thought we could, but Einsteins spin is defined by all mass, called frame-dragging, isn't it? So either all things we see 'spinning' take themselves out, giving no universal net angular motion observable, no matter if we were found to be spinning relative some 'outside', or they do not?

Gravity probe B has, as far as I know, proven the geodetic effect, how a invariant mass can 'warp/wrap' space around itself, and also time, as defined by some other frame of reference. And then frame-dragging, how a spinning object can drag space and time along in its rotation, so we know that 'space' adapts to mass and motion. And, if 'dragging' that to its logical conclusion, that should also mean that that the opposite must be true, otherwise we will have to find another way to describe a symmetry.

If they don't, How is that possible? Headache time :)
« Last Edit: 08/07/2011 23:08:11 by yor_on »
 

Offline Airthumbs

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« Reply #7 on: 08/07/2011 23:21:36 »
Maybe it's because it is space-time that drags and as time has an "arrow" symmetry does not apply, unless we can move time backwards?
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #8 on: 08/07/2011 23:29:59 »
Think of it this way, use the balloons surface to define that there are no center to the universe (2D). Then define it as gravity probe B, mass warp/wrap the space around itself and if that mass also rotate it also will drag the space with it. How does it do that? It does it relative all other mass, or 'gravity' if you like to do as I :)

So you have a 3D (4D depending) space that interact with itself. How would you now prove it all to be spinning without a 'outside referent'? Let's say we isolate a piece of 'space' and as it is defined as 'isotropic' and 'symmetric', as in being pretty much the same everywhere, obeying the same laws, I think we are free to do so. Then try to count all 'frame dragging' you see and look at if it evens out or not, if it doesn't, have we now found a 'universal angular motion'? We can't really define it like this I think, there are no reasons why everything has to be 'perfectly isotropic' from a entropic point of view, not as long as the whole of 'SpaceTime' is. And there is no way we ever will see the whole of SpaceTime, as I know. Also in Einsteins universe we have no absolute frames of reference, we have definitions we call inertial, to me speaking about uniform motion in where the only real definition is that they are at rest with 'gravity's potential' as I see it. So if you want to define a universal spin, you might have to define a absolute frame of reference first from 'where we can move the earth', or the universe, as this is about.

So, anyone, do you have a better idea how we could do it?
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #9 on: 08/07/2011 23:35:58 »
Ah this was not a answer to your idea Airthumbs, we just 'collided' in Cyberspace :) Time symmetry apply in QM, but macroscopically we do have a arrow.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #10 on: 08/07/2011 23:38:37 »
Think of it this way, use the balloons surface to define that there are no center to the universe (2D). Then define it as gravity probe B, mass warp/wrap the space around itself and if that mass also rotate it also will drag the space with it. How does it do that? It does it relative all other mass, or 'gravity' if you like to do as I :)

So you have a 3D (4D depending) space that interact with itself. How would you now prove it all to be spinning without a 'outside referent'? Let's say we isolate a piece of 'space' and as it is defined as 'isotropic' and 'symmetric', as in being pretty much the same everywhere, obeying the same laws, I think we are free to do so. Then try to count all 'frame dragging' you see and look at if it evens out or not, if it doesn't, have we now found a 'universal angular motion'? We can't really define it like this I think, there are no reasons why everything has to be 'perfectly isotropic' from a entropic point of view, not as long as the whole of 'SpaceTime' is. And there is no way we ever will see the whole of SpaceTime, as I know. Also in Einsteins universe we have no absolute frames of reference, we have definitions we call inertial, to me speaking about uniform motion in where the only real definition is that they are at rest with 'gravity's potential' as I see it. So if you want to define a universal spin, you might have to define a absolute frame of reference first from 'where we can move the earth', or the universe, as this is about.

So, anyone, do you have a better idea how we could do it?

As Doctor Michio kaku reminds us scientists, is that all the equations of the universe can be modelled to suit the idea that our universe is nothing but a black hole. This theory has been going around for a while now - if this was true (and here I use this as a thought-experiment), then our universe would be an electromagnetically-charged black hole, which in this case, would be spinning. If it were a black hole, then almost certainly we can be allowed within it's structure and exist, and see a universe much like our own in many respects, and not be worried about relativistic laws where rotation must be relative to something else, because if we really are in a black hole, then the physics states that there must be something outside our own universe.

Expand your minds people :P
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #11 on: 08/07/2011 23:45:32 »
And I agree AT, the symmetry should be about 'times arrow'. Like some 'still pictures' in where we see flows and streams (vectors sort of), and as we quickly start to flip through the pages in one direction, we find a universe, changing in its arrow.

And yes MD, if we have a frame of reference relative the universe, then we might be able to assume a rotation, but how would we prove it?
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #12 on: 08/07/2011 23:51:13 »
The only way I can think of is if that 'outside' could 'communicate' with us in a, for us, perceivable fashion. A black hole is defined by its Event Horizon as I see it, and even though you have entanglements possible, according to Hawking radiation, how would you know? The Black Holes are expected to last longer than our universe, meaning they will be the last to start radiate. Let's put it this way, we know that a Black Hole will influence the space outside it, does the universe influence the space inside the Event Horizon? If it does, and we have a BH inside a BH, inside a BH a.s.o :) there should be a effect from it, don't you agree? Some gravitational anomalies at least?

Are there?
« Last Edit: 08/07/2011 23:55:10 by yor_on »
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #13 on: 08/07/2011 23:54:39 »
And I agree AT, the symmetry should be about 'times arrow'. Like some 'still pictures' in where we see flows and streams (vectors sort of), and as we quickly start to flip through the pages in one direction, we find a universe, changing in its arrow.

And yes MD, if we have a frame of reference relative the universe, then we might be able to assume a rotation, but how would we prove it?

Well, we may already have a mathematical proof. It can be explained very easily - I do recall reading from a paper: We all know that the radius of a black hole is proportional to its mass. This is simply (R≈M) so from there, you know the density of a black hole is provided by the mass divided by the volume, which is of course: (D=M/V) - this is pure quantum mechanics and geometry being introduced here. The volume is proportional to the radius of a black hole rasied to the power of three so (V≈R) so the density of something exotic like a black hole is in fact proportional to it's mass raised to the second power (D≈M).

This means that if someone was sitting inside a black hole, it would not appear as dense as someone who was relatively sitting outside of the black holes horizon. So as we see, there might be a mathematical proof. How we come to prove it with experimentation is another deal entirely.
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #14 on: 08/07/2011 23:59:23 »
Yes, but we should be able to see gravitational influences if there was a two way communication, but as far as I know the Event Horizon is where our universe 'breaks of' leaving us with something that do not communicate more than one way, from us to it. All 'time' points to its center so to speak.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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« Reply #15 on: 09/07/2011 00:05:02 »
I don't see why you would need a frame of reference to detect movement unless that frame of reference is time? All you would need is information over time and then a comparison.  I suppose that frame of reference is whatever information you use so maybe I just answered my own question?  ;D  Hows that for confused!

If the universe was rotating we would see movement in different directions from the information.  Even the expansion of the universe could actually be movement defined as evidence of a spinning universe.  If space-time is expanding faster then the speed of light that universal spin is what creates gravity through a kind of gyroscopic effect!
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #16 on: 09/07/2011 00:06:41 »
So how about this, let us for fun assume a Black hole in where there comes a he* of a lot of mass, from our point of view outside it would 'hang there' outside the EV. From the point of view of the mass it would move, as I see it, finding no trouble pass what we call the EV into the center. From the point of view of someone being inside that 'space' inside the EV, being still relative its 'center' as we can assume for this. Would he notice gravity change.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #17 on: 09/07/2011 00:09:10 »
At this moment in time, I do not know how. You might be able to leave a black hole in theory. Maybe through quantum tunnelling - afterall, this is how Hawking Radiation works.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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« Reply #18 on: 09/07/2011 00:10:27 »
Would you be escaping the blackhole into what exactly?  Our Universe?
 

Offline yor_on

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« Reply #19 on: 09/07/2011 00:13:11 »
AT all rotations must be relative something. The universe as a whole also will need a definition relative it rotates. You might want to use gravity for it, it makes the most sense to me at least. But that's all inside this universe, so to get it to 'work' you also need something 'communicating' as I see it, from that 'outside'?
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #20 on: 09/07/2011 00:15:13 »
Would you be escaping the blackhole into what exactly?  Our Universe?

Into the universe which contains the black hole. As far as we are concerned (in theory of of course) the black holes inner horizons would be our universe. The black hole has more than one horizon within it's structure. One part of the horizon is where space and time move like they do in our universe, which is different to an observer who just falls into a black hole, because time becomes spacelike and space timelike. They switch roles, that is, until you fall into another horizon located inside the black hole.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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« Reply #21 on: 09/07/2011 00:25:39 »
Sounds like a tunnel?
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #22 on: 09/07/2011 00:27:11 »
My knowledge is limited on black holes, but I do believe it is like a tunnel - you cannot move freely in the space of a black hole until you pass the inner horizon - these inner structures only exist if the black hole rotates.
 

Offline Mr. Data

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« Reply #23 on: 09/07/2011 00:30:22 »
http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/b/Black_hole.htm

''Possibility of escaping from a rotating black hole

Penrose diagrams of various Schwarzschild solutions. Time is the vertical dimension, space is horizontal, and light travels at 45 angles. Paths less than 45 to the horizontal are forbidden by special relativity, but rotating black holes allow for travel to future "universes"Kerr's solution for the equations of general relativity predicts that:

The properties of space-time between the two event horizons allow objects to move only towards the singularity.
But the properties of space-time within the inner event horizon allow objects to move away from the singularity, pass through another set of inner and outer event horizons, and emerge out of the black hole into another universe or another part of this universe without traveling faster than the speed of light.
Passing through the ring shaped singularity may allow entry to a negative gravity universe.
If this is true, rotating black holes could theoretically provide the wormholes which often appear in science fiction. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that the internal properties of a rotating black hole are exactly as described by Kerr's solution and it is not currently known whether the actual properties of a rotating black hole would provide a similar escape route for an object via the inner event horizon.

Even if this escape route is possible, it is unlikely to be useful because a spacecraft which followed that path would probably be distorted beyond recognition by spaghettification.''

There is also some talk in the article conerning the inner event horizons.
 

Offline Airthumbs

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« Reply #24 on: 11/08/2011 02:19:33 »
If our Universe, and I say if, was created by a black hole then I suspect that it would be spinning or at least would have milliseconds after the big bang. After the bang, due to the rapid expansion of the Universe, that spin then might have ceased to apply to the whole Universe. The energy from this original spinning singularity could be the reason why everything else spins in our Universe including Blackholes, Neutron Stars, Atoms and my head when I think about this!

Something a bit odd about the Universe, it seems that things exists inside it that we think about, then we look, then guess what, we discover it!  Having said it's a bit odd, so is quantum mechanics, one thing that stands out in the perspective of the Universe is; what does it get upto when no one is looking?  And by observing our Universe are we changing it in some way? 

If someone sais, maybe our Universe is spinning, all of a sudden we have a Universe that could be spinning and not spinning at the same time, and that would mean we have to have at least two!

 

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Does the universe spin?
« Reply #24 on: 11/08/2011 02:19:33 »

 

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